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All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

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rossfadeinout

PoW, Good points... But still not exactly clear what your answer to my question would be

Ross #2. According to the Evans quote in my first post, mankind is so caught in sin that God incarnate must teach us about our condition. How does this occur for the one who has no knowledge of the gospel?

I have struggled with the issue of inclusivism and how the knowledge of our need for salvation is reached by those who have no access to the gospel. I have basically taken the position that God gives us the desire for transcendance, for meaning, for love, and this draws us to know God because nothing else satisfies us other than that which we were created for. But this seems counter to the claim that mankind does not seek God and that only through an encounter with the gospel does the need for salvation become clear.

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Now on to a question... You said that for Kierkegaard there are three stages, and in the religious stage there is an A and B (and possibly C) So here is what I'm wondering...

1. How can one go from religious stage A ("where we understand the task to be relating Absolutely to the Absolute and relatively to the relative") to religious stage B (where "The God who is "infinitely qualitatively different" in A becomes the God incarnate") without having propositional knowledge of the gospel-the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth?

2. According to the Evans quote in my first post, mankind is so caught in sin that God incarnate must teach us about our condition. How does this occur for the one who has no knowledge of the gospel?

I have struggled with the issue of inclusivism and how the knowledge of our need for salvation is reached by those who have no access to the gospel. I have basically taken the position that God gives us the desire for transcendance, for meaning, for love, and this draws us to know God because nothing else satisfies us other than that which we were created for. But this seems counter to the claim that mankind does not seek God and that only through an encounter with the gospel does the need for salvation become clear.

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... like Augustine said "Our hearts are restless until they find rest in Thee."

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SK has faith that all WILL encounter God. God has done what what is necessary for salvation for ALL and this will not be taken in vain or ignored. ALL will have an opinion on this matter. We have a role as witness, but we do not actually bring the encounter with God to the other person. We at most can be an occasion for God to move, usually despite us.

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So how do those who have not encountered propositional knowledge of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ by reading scripture or Christian witness obtain this knowledge that there was a man who lived in Israel 2000 years ago who claimed to be God, who died and was resurrected to give us salvation? Does God give this knowledge directly, or maybe in a dream?

I don't think that this is what you're saying. But this is where my trouble is. There have been a whole lot of people who have never encountered this propositional knowledge of Jesus. But you say that all have an opinion. Maybe I'm stuck on the idea of knowledge of Christ's earthly ministry, whereas you're saying that Christ can encounter man with the "gospel" without knowing about his earthly life--gospel meaning (sa PoW said earlier) that we have a need and that there is a God that can help.

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The point here is about knowledge not being sufficient apart from the way of being, and in fact, it may be suggested that the way of being may be enough, with the understanding that the knowledge will inevitably catch up, that is, they WILL have an opinion about Christ. Before objecting here, consider that actuality does have a way of correcting us when we pursue something passionately

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SK believes firmly that the very nature of being a human is tied up in our need to relate to God as an essential element.

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However, if you live in the Twin Cities area, let me give a plug, I will be teaching three classes in the Institute at Woodland Hills again this next school year, some of you have read these (like a young lady named Proverbs...you know who you are...) particular books with us at WHC before, but let me remind you that repetition will do you no harm! Feel free to jump in in the fall, we will be reading these books, in this order: Sickness Unto Death, Practice in Christianity, Works of Love. I figure, if we can get past the first couple of pages of Sickness, we can do the rest without any trouble.

So, even though the content of this post concedes that "Sickness..." is a tough place to start, I intend to start there this fall...

Hope you can join us!

Okay, ad is over. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

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Here's a thought-- maybe we could go on a summer (or fall) field-trip to the Kierkegaard library at St. Olaf College. It's still open right? That would be wonderful. The first annual SK retreat!

love,
selah

Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1

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Now, if the problem is to calculate where there is more truth, whether on the side of a person who only objectively seeks the true God and the appproximating truth of the God-idea or on the side of the person who is infinitely concerned that he in truth relate himself to God with the infinite passion of need--then there can be no doubt about the answer for anyone who is not totally botched by scholarship and science. If someone who lives in the midst of Christianity enters, with knowledge of the true idea of God, the house of God, the house of the true God, and prays, but prays in untruth, and if someone lives in an idolatrous land but prays with all the passion of infinity, although his eyes are resting on the image of an idol--where, then is there more truth? The one prays in truth to God although he is worshipping an idol; the other prays in untruth to the true God and is there fore in truth worshipping an idol.

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KC,

From what I understand of the Catholic Church's inclusivism, the answer to your question about Ed's honest search would be yes. Of course, questions about whether Ed's search is really honest, and all of the related inner-mental state issues would ultimately be determined by God, but yes, in principle Ed could be saved without direct propositional knowledge of the gospel. In fact, there is a famous section in the catechism that talks about the possibility that atheists could be saved, you should read it.

the gospel is also a mode of living, not just a set of intellectual beliefs, obviously. I can't imagine what kind of effect growing up with abusive parents who claimed to be Christians, for example, would have on my view of Christianity. It's to be expected that some people who have these types of backgrounds grow up to hate Christianity because of their distorted view of it. If that is their honest perception of Christianity and the gospel, will they be judged on the basis of rejecting this? I would think no, because they're not responding to the gospel at all. I would think, though, that if Ed is trying to objectively pursue the truth he would make a good effort to separate his emotional reaction to certain views he was indoctrinated with from the reasons for or against holding those beliefs. If Jesus is the only way, then Ed, if he is rational, wouldn't continue to reject this belief just because he doesn't like it. While he's certainly no fan of Christianity, I found this lyric I heard once to be intriguing:
"I never really hated the one true God, but the god of the people I hated."--Marilyn Manson




"Take the place of my heart, till I become a stranger to my life."
--Jars of Clay

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Some people are like cement. All mixed up and permanently set.

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Imitation, the imitation of Christ, is really the point from which the human race shrinks. the main difficulty lies here; here is where it is really decided whether or not one is willing to accept Christianity. If there is emphasis on this point, the stronger the emphasis the fewer Christians. If there is a scaling down at this point (so that Christianity becomes, intellectually, a doctrine), more people enter into Christianity. If it is abolished completely (so that Christianity becomes, existentially, as easy as mythology and poetry and imitation an exaggeration, a ludicrous exaggeration), then Christianity spreads to such a degree that Christendom and the world are almost indistinguishable, or all become Christians; Christainty has completely conquered--that is, it is abolished!

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The happiness linked to a historical condition exludes all who are outside the condition, and among those are the countless who are excluded through no fault of their own but by the accidental circumstance that Christianity has not yet been proclaimed to them.

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SK has faith that all WILL encounter God. God has done what what is necessary for salvation for ALL and this will not be taken in vain or ignored. ALL will have an opinion on this matter.

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