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|  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 4/29/2003 9:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | Here's what I wrote on a previous thread...
Modes, I have been interested in your study of Kierkegaard and have been meaning to hear more about why you have chosen to study him. My only exposure to him until recently was fairly harsh criticisms by people like Francis Schaeffer and Norm Geisler. But then I read some of C Stephen Evan's work, and found out that he was a SK scholar, so I've been trying to get some more info on SK. But enough about that....
The reason I'm posting is a question about this whole "Socrates being a Christian" thing. I was reading an article by C Stephen Evans in "The Grace of God and the Will of Man." The article is entitled "Salvation, Sin, and Human Freedom in Kierkegaard" and specifically at the section entitled "Salvation in Philosophical Fragments" Heres what he says in the opening paragraph of that section
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kierkegaard's pseudonym Johannes Climacus gives an excellent illustration of the characteristic Kierkegaardian view of salvationin Philosophical Fragments. This work is directed toward a crucial comparison of Christianity with Philosophical idealism. The major differences are clear: philosophical idealism presupposes that the truth (the essential truth, which if possessed is equivalent to salvation) is present at bottom in every individual; Christianity asserts that this essential truth must be brought to human beings in an authoritative revelation. Philosophical idealism assumes that since all humans have the truth, the most one human being can do for another when it comes to discovering the essential truth about life is to be a Socratic teacher who helps the individual discover the truth buried within. The teacher is only an "occasion", a Socratic mid-wife. Christianity asserts that since individuals are caught in sin, God himself must become the teacher, and that only if God entered human history as a human being could the truth be grasped by human beings. In this case the teacher must also be a savior, who not only brings the truth but transforms humans so they can receive that truth. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is my question (or questions)
1. do you consider this an accurate understanding of SK's view of salvation?
2. How does this view interact with an "inclusive" view of salvation, such as the salvation of Socrates. Socrates had no knowledge of Christ, his teachings and his works. This seems to lave little hope for poor old Socrates with Sk's view of salvation (as explained by Evans)
3. Did SK ever specifically address salvation of the pagan- those who have no knowledge of Christ and his work.
Here's what it comes down to-- SK, from my limited understanding, saw Natural Theology as useless at best and idolatry at worst. However, most defenses of "inclusive" views of salvation rely on some sort of knowledge of God that is available to all, without the particular knowledge of Christ required. There seems to be tension between these to positions.
But again, I'm definitely not an expert on SK and his thought, so I would appreciate any help you (or anyone else) can give.
Ross
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
 |  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 4/29/2003 9:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Modes, thanks for your basic response on the other thread. I'd be very interested in a more detailed explanation of how this emphasis on divine revelation and universal opportunity would be reconciled...
Ross
Edited by - rossfadeinout on 04/29/2003 2:34:22 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  AlyoshaKaramazov Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 49 | Posted 4/29/2003 7:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | Kierkegaard is incredibly underappreciated by evangelicals. I've read thrashings of SK by Geisler and Schaeffer, and I liked Modes term "watchdogging"--that's a great way to describe what the G-man and S-dogg are doing with the dark Dane. I do think that SOME of what geisler has to say seems valid, but it seems like some of these guys totally miss the good stuff. And I would say that Socrates is right there with SK as an existentialist in the sense that both thinkers NEVER separated their thinking from their living. There just was no distinction between the two. Back in the day when I was a philosophy student, I was always put off by people in the dept for whom philosophizing was just this fun game that had no connection to real life. one prof friend of mine likened doing phil to playing chess or gardening. all i gotta say is go back and read the apology and the phaedo or some kierkegaard. that's real philosophizing: having an existential interest in truth and the courage of your convictions.
another thing about sk: he's not afraid to be a christian and to be melancholy and even dark. i hope we can all admit there are just way too many shiny, happy evangelicals out there. sk and even pascal are a good antidote when you're feeling like you stepped out of reality and into "barney and friends" taping. in addition to being a proto-existentialist, i'd like to ascribe to him a new term, proto-goth-christian. there's just some christians out there who seem to be more sensitive to the fallenness of creation than others, and i think sk is a good example of one of those types at their best.
anyway, sorry for my stream of consciousness rambling about "that solitary individual," but a thread on sk is just to cool to pass up.
I'd like to second ross: what's your thing with kierkegaard, Modes? And ross, what's your thinking on the man?
happy trails,
"Take the place of my heart, till I become a stranger to my life." --Jars of Clay | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Alan Rhoda Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002 Total Posts : 680 | Posted 4/29/2003 8:51 PM (GMT -6) |   | Enjoying your discussion so far, Ross and Alyosha.
I'm no expert on Kierkegaard, but I think one reason many Christians are critical of him is because they forget (or never noticed) that most of Kierkegaard's works were written under a pseudonym (like 'Johannes Climacus' or 'Johannes de silentio') and that therefore these works do not necessarily present K's own position. In fact, at one point (I think it is in the nonpseudonymous work "Point of View for My Work As an Author", but I might be wrong on that) K explicitly says that his pseudonymous works do NOT represent his own position.
For example, the "author" of "Fear and Trembling" (Johannes de silentio) claims to have no faith and yet is ostensibly writing a book about faith. Thus "Fear and Trembling" is not K's view, but K's attempt to describe faith from the perspective of one who doesn't have it or understand it--thus it's no surprise that he winds up describing faith as something like an infinite blind leap in the dark.
If you want K's own position, you either have to read the nonpseudonymous works, or you have to penetrate through the layer of irony that pervades his pseudonymous works. The interpretation of the pseudonymous work is notoriously controversial, however, because of the difficultly in determining to what extent K's pseudonym is speaking for K and to what extent the pseudonym is not.
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
 |  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 4/30/2003 3:55 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey all, Alyosha, I enjoyed your thoughts on SK. In answer to your question about what I think of Kierkegaard, I would have to say that I'm not really sure what I think now. I have never read any of his works, so all my (very limited) knowledge of him is second hand. Like I said, my first exposure to any discussion about SK was in Schaeffer's book "The God Who Is There." In that book Schaeffer says that SK was one of the first thinkers to seperate the lower and upper stories of life, and that for SK faith in God was some kind of "blind leap." From what I thought SK believed, if a person was sure that what he believed was true then there was no faith. I certainly have problems with someone who would say that. It seems that biblical faith is anything but a "leap in the dark." Passages like II Timothy 1:12 where Paul says "I know in whom I believe, and am CONVINCED that he will be able to keep that which I have committed to him against that day" seem to be a SURE faith, not a leap in the dark.
But recently I have been introduced to the whole idea (that Alan brought up) of understanding that SK wrote through pseudonyms, and that the ideas of these works do not always represent what SK believes. So I'm not really sure what I think about Kierkegaard. I really like what Modes has to say about not divorcing philosophy from living. My friends are always giving me a hard time about why I spend so much time reading philosophy and asking them about why they believe what they say that they do. But to me, the only things worth thinking about are the major questions of philosophy-"why am I here, is there a God, what is the good life and how do I live it?" These are the questions that effect life and how its lived!
I also think that SK is right on about calling out those who are Christian in name only. I live in Nashville, the belt buckle of the Bible belt. Here everyone is a "Christian" in the sense that Christian = good person. SK faced the same problem in Denmark, and his words are truly brilliant regarding this type of cultural "Christianity".
Just found this SK quote... quote: "In the New Testament the Savior of the world, our Lord Jesus Christ, represents the situation thus: The way that leads to life is straight, the gate narrow--few be they who find it!--...now, on the contrary, to speak only of Denmark, we are all Christians, the way is as broad as it possibly can be, the broadest in Denmark, since it is the way in which we all are walking, besides being in all respects as convenient, as comfortable, as possible; and the gate is as wide as it possibly can be, wider surely a gate cannot be than that through which we all are going en masse... Ergo the New Testament is no longer truth."
That is so right on!
Anyway, I would still like to see how the issue of an inclusive approach to salvation would be reconciled with SK's emphasis on the necessity of supernatural direct revelation (as emphasized in the Evans' quote above concerning SK's contrasting Christianity and philosophical idealism)
Looking forward to the continued discussion, Ross
Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite. -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Ochuk Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 102 | Posted 4/30/2003 9:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey guys,
I've been studying SK for the last two years of my life. I'm no student, but what I’ve read is amazing.
One comment about the pseudonyms and SK's own views on himself: He did say that his pseudonyms don't represent him; however, no one really takes that seriously. The reasons being his nonpseudonym works clearly represent his Christian Ideals. Edifying Discourses and the infamous Attack Upon Christendom carry enough theological weight that clearly shows what he really believes. Also, his journals are a good source to see where he really was at.
SK used the pseudonyms to communicate truth "indirectly." He felt the sort of "subjective truth" (truth subject to the individual) was more important than "objective truth" and had to be communicated in such a way that was not so clear. He tried to model Jesus and Socrates by using stories, parables, irony and pseudonyms, to cause his readers to think about deeper truth other than the type of truth presented in bland metaphysical discourses of... oh let's say Hegel.
I’m not sure what NG or FS have said about SK, but I am very curious. Does anyone know?
Read my blog at ochuk.gizzar.com | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 4/30/2003 4:21 PM (GMT -6) |   | I will definitely be back... Tomorrow. I am very excited to dive into this thread! Great stuff already! Right now I have to read about 100 pages of the Postscript. My wife and I are doing a guided reading with one of the best living SK scholars around; Dr. Paul Sponheim of Luther Seminary. Did his dissertation on SK in the 60's and has been reading him obviously before that and ever since. I mention him because I am highly indebted to him for whatever comprehension I have gleaned of SK. Of course, whatever confusion I provided is courtesy of yours truly...
Tomorrow. Definitely. (Unless something really heavy falls on my head on the way out the door.) 
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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 |  AlyoshaKaramazov Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 49 | Posted 4/30/2003 9:24 PM (GMT -6) |   | Ochuk,
I checked out your "blog" (what does that mean?), and it was really cool. Did you write the paper on postmodernism? I thought it was really well done. Also the os guinness interview was dead on. What is this "the rock" you speak of?
alan makes really good points about the pseudonymous authorship. what sk was trying to do with the "indirect communication" is just so brilliant. a lot of it is just socratic method in book form. when an individual really gets a glimpse into all sides of a debate, the contours of the truth really start to become apparent, and the truth begins to be realized. i think a lot of young, budding xtian apologists tend to read to memorize and regurgitate their favorite apologetics book, and never really understand why something is true or the opposing viewpoints and arguments. it's the "when they say this, you say this" method of apologetics. this is a good way to become a top notch propaganda machine, but not a very good way to become a pursuer and obtainer of truth. kierkegaard also hits on every cerebral level as a writer and thinker: from appealing to our aesthetic sensibilities in the uber-creative "either/or," to our hardcore rational side in philosophical fragments, to our hearts in the devotional lit and journals. the dude is the daddy mack of christian creativity and breadth of intellect--evangelicals would do well to take the plunge into his works.
look forward to hearing from you modes.
"Take the place of my heart, till I become a stranger to my life." --Jars of Clay | | Back to Top | | |
 |  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 5/1/2003 3:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey Ochuk, You asked what Norm Geisler has said about SK. Here is an excerpt from one of his papers... quote: The father of modern existentialism was not a twentieth-century French atheist but a Danish Christian named Soren Kierkegaard (1813-1855) who could have signed a statement subscribing to the historic fundamentals of the Faith. He wrote: “On the whole, the doctrine as it is taught [in the church] is entirely sound.” [28] Nonetheless, few have done more from within the evangelical fold to methodologically undermine historic orthodoxy than Kierkegaard. Indeed, it was his philosophical son, Karl Barth, who gave rise to Neo-Orthodoxy. Kierkegaard concluded that even if we assume that the defenders of Christianity “ . . . have succeeded in proving about the Bible everything that any learned theologian in his happiest moment has ever wished to prove about the Bible” namely, “that these books and no others belong in the canon; they are authentic; they are integral; their authors are trustworthy--one may well say, that it is as if every letter were inspired.” Kierkegaard asked: “Has anyone who previously did not have faith been brought a single step nearer to its acquisition? No, not a single step.” [29]
Then Kierkegaard posed the opposite, namely, “that the opponents have succeeded in proving what they desire about the Scriptures, with a certainty transcending the most ardent wish of the most passionate hostility--what then? Have the opponents thereby abolished Christianity? By no means. Has the believer been harmed? By no means, not in the least.” [30]
At the minimum, Kierkegaard's bifurcation of fact and value is axiologically misplaced. In fact, it has been biblically disastrous, as Barth, Brunner, and Bultmann demonstrate--or whatever other “B's” may be buzzing around unorthodox circles. We need only mention the Kierkegaardian inspired beliefs that: 1) Religious truth is located in personal encounter (subjectivity); 2) Propositional truth is not essential to the Faith; 3) Higher criticism is not harmful to real Christianity: 4) God is “wholly other” and essentially unknowable, even through biblical revelation.
Ross
Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite. -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Ochuk Registered Member
 Date Joined Apr 2003 Total Posts : 102 | Posted 5/1/2003 7:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Alyosha: I checked out your "blog" (what does that mean?), and it was really cool. Did you write the paper on postmodernism? I thought it was really well done. Also the os guinness interview was dead on. What is this "the rock" you speak of?
Ochuk: A blog is a slang word for Weblog. It's like an e-journal you allow people to read and comment. You link to others (I’m working on that) and you develop a blog community. It's fun. I did write that paper, and thank you for your kind words. The Rock is the name of my church I go to in uptown Minneapolis.
Now to rossfadeinout: Wow, thanks for that info. NG is right on about a lot of things, and there is no doubt SK's beliefs have been influential for negative things. I can see why NG wouldn't like SK, since SK disliked apologetics. It should be noted, however that he looked at the Bible as the Word of God. He wrote reverently about being "alone" with it, and letting god speak to you.
SK's ranting against apologetics should be taken in the context of his times. He lived in Denmark, where if you born, you were Christian. Hearing lectures by Hegelian philosophers proving Christianity was common. Kierkegaard hated that. He thought it was superficial to present facts about the Christian faith, but have no faith!
I don't know, he comes across so weird in his writings, that I’m sure Barth and all those guys misread him. Then again, I could be wrong. i'm no expert.
I look foreward to your response Mode.
Read my blog at ochuk.gizzar.com | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 5/2/2003 5:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | Okay, sorry, I am a day late (and a dollar short, as usual).
This is going to be a series of short responses to various points either directed to me or about something I am particularly interested in. This first one takes up the question posed at the beginning regarding my reason for studying SK.
Frankly, he has NO peers that I know of in terms of philosophy, theology and the concern for living those together in an actual life on earth. I am NOT saying that his own "actual life" exemplifies all that he says, it does not, and he confesses this regularly. I think in just about every book, in fact. Many people have "tighter" systems that take up one of the above (philosophy, theology, ethics, etc.) but I know of no one who has the overall coherence that SK maintained and still adequately deals with most of the big issues in each area, not only in thought, but in life.
The other thing I love about SK is that he really had nothing new to say. He simply restored the Gospel to the place that it should have. That of absolute importance and a place of authority over our lives and thinking. It is his WAY of thinking and being that amazes, not so much some new twist on things, though there are some of those as well. If you are Lutheran, there is almost nothing new in SK in terms of dogmatics. If you are not, the best of Lutheranism is present in SK and will rock you world theologically.
He is an intensely focused person. One of his works is entitled, "The purity of heart is to will one thing." This is very true and very helpful in life if you let it govern you. Another gem of a line that transforms both thought and life is that it is the human being's task to: "relate absolutely to the absolute and relatively to the relative." Focus, focus, focus. He has it. There is one absolute. God, revealed in Christ, whom we owe everything. The purity of our heart depends upon our willingness to will one thing. Obedience to God. Pretty simply to think, just spend about five minutes trying to do it sometime. I mean, five minutes in a row. See how long you last.
See, he didn't confuse simplicity of thought with simplicity of action and living. Because one can think it in no way entails that one has done it. Another example, the big thing then was (and still is, in some circles) to "doubt everything". Well, it is certianly simple to say that one has doubted everything, but it is not so easy to actually do it! Just try it for about 20 minutes. Congruity of existence is important. Thought should agree with the life we live.
I could go on, but I will spare you.... for now.
Be back.
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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 |  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 5/2/2003 5:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | Modes, Good stuff! Looking forward to more...
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 5/2/2003 6:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi again Ross, et al,
About Evans, yes, great guy and great stuff. He is really good on the Johannes Climacus material. If you want to really rock your thinking about faith and Christianitiy in particular without changing any of your "doctrinal stances", read "Philosophical Fragments" and Evan's "Passionate Reason" together sometime. Its a wild ride. It will change the way you think about Christian faith. I do think that at times Evans tries to convert Climacus into more of a rationalist than I find him to be, but his arguments are almost always plausible. I am not suggesting that SK or Climacus is less than rational, but he may be more. The book definitely takes up the question of the limits of reason, and I think, finds some.
The punchline here (for those of you who will never read this stuff anyway) is, the human understanding has to "come to an understanding" with what it cannot comprehend, that is, God, and more particularly, God incarnate. So the language used is that there is a place where human understanding has to give itself up and God, in Christ offers himself to us. We then may have the mind of Christ, but we do not comprehend God, nor the incarnation, intellectually speaking, we imitate it in a real life. This little expression I have offered here goes beyond the scope of Fragments but I do think it fits SK's way of describing things.
The point is, we do not reason our way into faith. We are encountered by the Absolute and we must yield. I think Evans grants this, but he does seem to want to keep Climacus as much of a rationalist as possible. Not my way of reading, but other than that, I agreed with the vast majority of his commentary on "Fragments" in his "Passionate Reason".
Ah, yes, and that other major theme, PASSION. SK was of the opinion that the church is no longer persecuted today not because the world is any more friendly to Christianity, but because the world has lost its passion. At least in the early church, both Christians and pagans had passion, drive, integrity of thought and action. Socrates exemplifies this. It was possible to die for one's faith because others cared enough about such things to kill you. There are some places in the world where this is still true tday, but who has been there? More importantly, who's life is truly impacted by that reality?
So this concludes this response to why I read SK and what I think of Evans. Movin' on...
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 5/2/2003 6:51 AM (GMT -6) |   | Okay, I am still working somewhat sequentially through this thread, so here I am just going to post my initial responses to Ross' questions that started this thread. I'd be happy to elaborate on any of them...
quote: Ross,
Thanks so much for expressing interest. I wonder if we should start another thread where I would be very happy to address your questions. Do you mind perhaps cutting and pasting what you asked to a new thread so I don't sabatogue this one? The quick response is: Evans reads SK sympathetically and, I think, largely accurately. Schaeffer and Geisler are unsympathetic doing their usual watchdogging. But it is silly to attack SK on theological grounds. He is completely orthodox. What they don't like is SK's way of shifting the focus from simply affirming certian things as true to actually expecting the individual and the church to imitate Christ. He won't let you have the theological debate without the self-examination that requires either action or confession. Acedemics don't appreciate this.
1. Yes. That is accurate of the Fragments and of SK's thought generally. VERY strong doctrine of revelation and our need of it.
2. Actually, I doubt Evans would say what you suppose here. SK clearly takes a "universal opportunity" position. All will encounter Christ and all will have to make a choice about it. SK puts this in the imperative: "You SHALL have an opinion."
3. Yes. And it is consistent with the response to #2 above. Christ's work is eternal in nature. The date of your birth in relation to it is of no importance.
As I mentioned, please consider picking this up by starting a new thread. I'd love to pursue any interest you or others have in SK.
Blessings, Modes
I would stop short of saying that SK saw natural theology as useless... but lets take that to the new thread...
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 5/2/2003 7:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Modes, thanks for your basic response on the other thread. I'd be very interested in a more detailed explanation of how this emphasis on divine revelation and universal opportunity would be reconciled...
Ross
Good question: There is no way to relate to God abstractly. Ouf faith and our relation to God is not an idea to be thought. God did not only give us the Word of God in the Bible, but more fundamentally, God gave us Christ. This is the essential content of the self-revelation of God. Christ's work was for ALL human beings. There is no one who is reconciled to God who is not reconciled through Christ. Period. SK views this as standard assertion in theology and that it is, except for modern day evangelicals. We like to limit the breadth of grace to those who jump through certian hoops. Not so, grace is a matter of what God has done for us. Now, we must appropriate it personally, we must receive it, but nothing we do brings it to us. SK speaks of "the moment", the moment is an occasion in time where we encounter God and because of this we are faced with an either/or decision. Either we are offended by God or God's claim on us, or we submit to God in obedience and profound gratitude. Our whole lives should be moments of this sort, but we don't live with that degree of awareness of what is really true. His authorship is an attempt to help us become aware of this reality. Each and every moment. Salvation is to rest transparently in the power that established you and to do this each moment, the repetition is not incidental, it is essential. We fail to do this, so SK finds it necessary to speak of grace both as the gift of Christ, but also as the grace to accept our confession of sin (if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us, but God who is faithful and just will forgive...) in place of our conformity most of the time.
More in a bit, gotta eat lunch.
The long and short of it is, all will encounter Christ, and all will have to make a decision about that. How and when is not critical, but that they will meet the Lord is.
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 5/2/2003 8:09 AM (GMT -6) |   | AlyoshaKaramazov,
I appreciated your comments above. I also appreciate your perception of profs who so radically seperate actual life from their thought life. This was something that bothered SK profoundly. Of course you know that profs of this sort were frequent targets of criticism to this effect, as were pastors whose life did not agree with their thoughts.
Alan, Very perceptive of you, thanks for reminding us of the complexity of the authorship due to so many points of departure. I agree, the psuedonyms DO NOT represent the actual positions of SK himself, though much does carry over, but gets modified in the later writings and signed works. I am always baffled by those who offer quotes, attribute them to SK and then omit the fact that they are quoting a psuedonym. Now, I have done this as well, but I try to do it only when I agree with the statement and believe that it is true of SK generally, meaning I can support it from his signed works, but like how it is worded in a psuedonymous work. I would not do this in a scholarly presentation that is making an argument about SK's position on this or that...
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 5/2/2003 8:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | Ross, About the leap, that language is related to the stuff I wrote above about reason coming to an understanding with the paradox (God-man, Christ, etc.), yielding, and receiving grace from God. This is what the leap entails in the Fragments. Now, remember this is written by Climacus who is not yet a Christian but rather a seeker of truth who is willing to die to find it. In fact, he has come to believe that this is precisely what Christianity requires, that we die in order to live. He has not "made the leap," he is still trying to make sure that he is talking about the actual Christian faith, what is the content of it? Does he have it right? What will it cost? And so forth. Another form of the paradoxical problem is the idea that a moment in time can make an eternity of difference. This is profound and represents the decisiveness of that moment. But it is not merely one moment, but then the repetition of it in life...
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
Edited by - ModesofThought on 05/02/2003 1:27:41 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 5/2/2003 8:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | Ochuk,
Nice to meet you. It is a pleasure to meet another person taken aback by SK. I agreed with all you stated in your first post. But I would caution one from expecting someone like Climacus to get it right in terms of the higher stages, this is a common pattern I see, the "lower" authors don't express with clarity what the higher authors now know. For example, The postscript, which is all about the inwardness of subjectivity and questions the relavence of objective knowledge and even action, does not have the strength of call to imitate Christ we see in Practice (Anti-Climacus). And these two are both sorta trumped in Works of Love and For Self-Examination, in fact, in FSE, we see Luther interegate SK himself and ask why the "restlessness of faith" does not cause SK's life to bear witness to the faith he supposedly has. A comical reply by SK is, "but read my books! and you will know that I have faith" (not a quote, he is more elegant) and of course this is not the point...
And of course, the subjective character of life is what drives the holding together of thought and actuality. We are in fact human beings. Subjects, not objects. Therefore, subjectivity is higher for us that objectivity. Pretty foundational to SK, though still controversial point.
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 5/2/2003 8:33 AM (GMT -6) |   | Al, amen to that post to Ochuk! I completely concur. I am doing what I can to make SK as accessible to evangelicals as possible. I have been teaching classes on him for the last few years here at church and it has been wonderful. Evangelicals really do resonate with what he is doing and are deeply challenged by him because of way he raises the bar. Someone said something about his idealism. Yes, he does have a certain kind of idealism. He is very serious about keeping the Christian ideals fully intact. We tent to take a perfectly good ideal like: love, mercy, grace, etc. and then convert it into something we can manage. Well, that is the target of SK's approach. He presents the ideal back in its ideal form and then calls us to count. Will we be moved to action right away in order to conform to the ideal? If not, the alternative is clear. Confess your sin. Admission is the alternative to action, not dragging the ideal down to our level and then feeling good about doing something....
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 5/2/2003 8:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | Okay, I think I am sorta caught up. I am excited to see where we can go with this conversation!
Blessings, modes
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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 |  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 5/2/2003 8:39 AM (GMT -6) |   | Modes, You're rolling! OK, I'm trying to keep up here. I apologize beforehand for my ignorance...
How many psuedonyms does Kierkegaard write under? You mentioned "Johannes Climacus" (kind of a Johnny Climax??) and how he is not a Christian but a seeker of the truth. You also mentioned "anti-Climacus" in your response to Ochuk. In regards to this you said... quote: I would caution one from expecting someone like Climacus to get it right in terms of the higher stages, this is a common pattern I see, the "lower" authors don't express with clarity what the higher authors now know. For example, The postscript, which is all about the inwardness of subjectivity and questions the relavence of objective knowledge and even action, does not have the strength of call to imitate Christ we see in Practice (Anti-Climacus). And these two are both sorta trumped in Works of Love and For Self-Examination,
So what I'm hearing is that some of the psuedonyms are farther along than others in their progression toward Christianity, correct? How many psuedonyms did SK use and who (if any) best represent SK's views?
I would also like to respond to the post on the universal opportunity of response to Christ, but that will be for another post.
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid
Edited by - rossfadeinout on 05/02/2003 1:43:49 PM
Edited by - rossfadeinout on 05/02/2003 1:54:14 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 5/2/2003 9:21 AM (GMT -6) |   | Not sure exactly how many authors there are but there's a bunch, the better way to sort out the progression is through a look at the stages.
The first stage is the aesthetic. The second is the ethical. The third is the religious.
The religious has A and B and some say C. I would support a C position.
None of these stages is "bad", but the lower ones are relativized by the higher. And even this only happens when there is a conflict between the stages. actually, the more accurate way to say it is, where there is a conflict betwee the criteria that govern the stages/spheres of existence.
The aesthetic is all about immediacy. What do I like, what don't I like? It is letting our prereflective preferences govern our action. The self is its own criterion for what is to be done or not. (Either of Either/Or is aesthetic, Johannes de silentio of Fear and Trembling is an aesthete)
The ethical recognizes that there are others in existence and elevates the good of the whole over the good of the individual. The move from aesthetic to ethical is the major move. It is the "either/or". Why? Why not the religious as the either or? Because SK, like Socrates, believed that the truth is worth living and dying for. Worth living and dying to pursue. The ethical is the first stage that ackowledges that the criterion for truth is not present within the individual. Meaning the individual cannot serve as an adequate criterion for thought and action. Not even for her own thought and action. This is the biggest move because it represents the first step in dethroning the self. Now, the criterion for truth is pursued as something outside of the self, and here begins the process of relativization. All other possible criteria will be tested and dismissed until we find the Absolute criterion which must be obeyed. (Judge Williams is an ethicist, as is Johannes Cilmacus)
The ethical is relativized because God is not the same as the Ethical ideal of the good of the whole. God is the creator and if God calls us to act in a way that we cannot understand, we are still subject to God's authority. Abraham is the model here. The teleological suspension of the ethical is introduced here. NOTICE, this is not a destruction of the ethical!!! It is only a suspension when the ethical (a human construction/conviction) is in direct conflict with obedience to God. God is the criterion, not my ethical system. Through this, we come to Religiousness A, where we understand the task to be relating Absolutely to the Absolute and relatively to the relative.
Religiousness B marks the intensification of the God relationship. The God who is "infinitely qualitatively different" in A becomes the God incarnate. We are now doing Christology. The call is imitation of the God-man. Bearing witness, suffering for the sake of Gospel, etc. (Anti-Climacus fits here)
Works of Love (signed, nonpsuedonymous) takes us beyond the call to do what is modeled by Christ to the more complex problem of understanding what that means in relation to the world. The relation that was so intensely focused on the individual and God now takes up the neighbor and includes her as essential.
Whereas in the ethical, one related to the world with the abstract criterion of "the good of the whole" one now relates to the world with the very concrete dictum, love the Lord your God will all your heart, all your soul and all your mind and love your neighbor (not merely the good of the whole) as your self.
Ross asked about the name Climacus, it is a reference to "John the Climber" the one who is working at this problem of life. Anti-Climacus is not the opposite but is a reference of higher rank. The image is like the commandment, you shall have no other gods "before" me. God will not permit a higher rank in an other. But SK does provide a higher rank that Climacus, that is, Anti-Climacus.
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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 |  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 5/3/2003 10:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey all, This has been a very productive discussion for me! I really appreciated your last post Modes in reference to the stages of life. I find that these stages are right on in regards to how God draws us to Himself. I see it rooted in an existential desire; like Augustine said "Our hearts are restless until they find rest in Thee."
Now on to a question... You said that for Kierkegaard there are three stages, and in the religious stage there is an A and B (and possibly C) So here is what I'm wondering...
1. How can one go from religious stage A ("where we understand the task to be relating Absolutely to the Absolute and relatively to the relative") to religious stage B (where "The God who is "infinitely qualitatively different" in A becomes the God incarnate") without having propositional knowledge of the gospel-the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth?
2. According to the Evans quote in my first post, mankind is so caught in sin that God incarnate must teach us about our condition. How does this occur for the one who has no knowledge of the gospel?
I have struggled with the issue of inclusivism and how the knowledge of our need for salvation is reached by those who have no access to the gospel. I have basically taken the position that God gives us the desire for transcendance, for meaning, for love, and this draws us to know God because nothing else satisfies us other than that which we were created for. But this seems counter to the claim that mankind does not seek God and that only through an encounter with the gospel does the need for salvation become clear.
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/3/2003 11:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | Modes AND Ross,
This is just a quick jump-in-and-out.
I noticed this as the thread got started:
quote: ... The teacher is only an "occasion", a Socratic mid-wife. Christianity asserts that since individuals are caught in sin, God himself must become the teacher, and that only if God entered human history as a human being could the truth be grasped by human beings. In this case the teacher must also be a savior, who not only brings the truth but transforms humans so they can receive that truth.
It was that talk of Christ as "teacher" that left me out of the thread's stream. That's not were I center Christ.
Now I see:
quote: 2. According to the Evans quote in my first post, mankind is so caught in sin that God incarnate must teach us about our condition. How does this occur for the one who has no knowledge of the gospel?
I have struggled with the issue of inclusivism and how the knowledge of our need for salvation is reached by those who have no access to the gospel. I have basically taken the position that God gives us the desire for transcendance, for meaning, for love, and this draws us to know God because nothing else satisfies us other than that which we were created for. But this seems counter to the claim that mankind does not seek God and that only through an encounter with the gospel does the need for salvation become clear.
Ross
I'm assuming that "the knowledge of our need for salvation" fits with the "teacher" model. (Teacher is to knowledge, as ...)
But I keep coming back to Athanasias[/b and "What is not assumed is not healed" and "God became man that man might be deified by grace." Taht's the model where I locate Christ.
so I don't think first about knowledge as the core of our need[u/], or our cure. And I don't think of knowledge as the sales-pitch either.
Rather, I think that what Paul says in Romans is key. The dots connect really well from there to Athanasias. Forgive me, but "desire for transcendance" is not nearly as visceral as Paul's:
quote: The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
(Romans 1:18-32)
"THERE'S THE (REAL) RUB."
Sin...death...sin...death...sin...death...sin...death...sin...
Romans 3:10-18
quote: As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 05/03/2003 4:23:29 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  rossfadeinout Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002 Total Posts : 428 | Posted 5/5/2003 5:28 AM (GMT -6) |   | PoW, Good points... But still not exactly clear what your answer to my question would be (I just have trouble following you sometimes )
Modes, Aloysha, Ochuk, or anyone else, I hope that the discussion just slowed down because of the weekend. Looking forward to more, especially regarding my previous post.
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
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