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0CT0R0K
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 1/6/2003 10:59 AM (GMT -6) |   | This was taken from another message board. I've gathered up most of the answers, but some of the contradictions or "difficulties"  listed I couldn't find answers for. Any help?
Leave No Stone Unturned: An Easter Challenge For Christians
I have an Easter challenge for Christians. My challenge is simply this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof. My straightforward request is merely that Christians tell me exactly what happened on the day that their most important doctrine was born.
Believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not." (I Corinthians 15:14-15)
The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened.
Since the gospels do not always give precise times of day, it is permissible to make educated guesses. The narrative does not have to pretend to present a perfect picture--it only needs to give at least one plausible account of all of the facts. Additional explanation of the narrative may be set apart in parentheses. The important condition to the challenge, however, is that not one single biblical detail be omitted. Fair enough?
I have tried this challenge myself. I failed. An Assembly of God minister whom I was debating a couple of years ago on a Florida radio show loudly proclaimed over the air that he would send me the narrative in a few days. I am still waiting. After my debate at the University of Wisconsin, "Jesus of Nazareth: Messiah or Myth," a Lutheran graduate student told me he accepted the challenge and would be contacting me in about a week. I have never heard from him. Both of these people, and others, agreed that the request was reasonable and crucial. Maybe they are slow readers.
Many bible stories are given only once or twice, and are therefore hard to confirm. The author of Matthew, for example, was the only one to mention that at the crucifixion dead people emerged from the graves of Jerusalem, walking around showing themselves to everyone--an amazing event that could hardly escape the notice of the other Gospel writers, or any other historians of the period. But though the silence of others might weaken the likelihood of a story, it does not disprove it. Disconfirmation comes with contradictions.
Thomas Paine tackled this matter two hundred years ago in The Age of Reason, stumbling across dozens of New Testament discrepancies:
"I lay it down as a position which cannot be controverted," he wrote, "first, that the agreement of all the parts of a story does not prove that story to be true, because the parts may agree and the whole may be false; secondly, that the disagreement of the parts of a story proves the whole cannot be true."
Since Easter is told by five different writers, it gives one of the best chances to confirm or disconfirm the account. Christians should welcome the opportunity.
One of the first problems I found is in Matthew 28:2, after two women arrived at the tomb: "And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it." (Let's ignore the fact that no other writer mentioned this "great earthquake.") This story says that the stone was rolled away after the women arrived, in their presence.
Yet Mark's Gospel says it happened before the women arrived: "And they said among themselves, Who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great."
Luke writes: "And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre." John agrees. No earthquake, no rolling stone. It is a three-to-one vote: Matthew loses. (Or else the other three are wrong.) The event cannot have happened both before and after they arrived.
Some bible defenders assert that Matthew 28:2 was intended to be understood in the past perfect, showing what had happened before the women arrived. But the entire passage is in the aorist (past) tense, and it reads, in context, like a simple chronological account. Matthew 28:2 begins, "And, behold," not "For, behold." If this verse can be so easily shuffled around, then what is to keep us from putting the flood before the ark, or the crucifixion before the nativity?
Another glaring problem is the fact that in Matthew the first post-resurrection appearance of Jesus to the disciples happened on a mountain in Galilee (not in Jerusalem, as most Christians believe), as predicted by the angel sitting on the newly moved rock: "And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him." This must have been of supreme importance, since this was the message of God via the angel(s) at the tomb. Jesus had even predicted this himself sixty hours earlier, during the Last Supper (Matthew 26:32).
After receiving this angelic message, "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." (Matthew 28:16-17) Reading this at face value, and in context, it is clear that Matthew intends this to have been the first appearance. Otherwise, if Jesus had been seen before this time, why did some doubt?
Mark agrees with Matthew's account of the angel's Galilee message, but gives a different story about the first appearance. Luke and John give different angel messages and then radically contradict Matthew. Luke shows the first appearance on the road to Emmaus and then in a room in Jerusalem. John says it happened later than evening in a room, minus Thomas. These angel messages, locations, and travels during the day are impossible to reconcile.
Believers sometimes use the analogy of the five blind men examining an elephant, all coming away with a different definition: tree trunk (leg), rope (tail), hose (trunk), wall (side), and fabric (ear). People who use this argument forget that each of the blind men was wrong: an elephant is not a rope or a tree. You can put the five parts together to arrive at a noncontradictory aggregate of the entire animal. This hasn't been done with the resurrection.
Another analogy sometimes used by apologists is comparing the resurrection contradictions to differing accounts given by witnesses of an auto accident. If one witness said the vehicle was green and the other said it was blue, that could be accounted for by different angles, lighting, perception, or definitions of words. The important thing, they claim, is that they do agree on the basic story--there was an accident, there was a resurrection.
I am not a fundamentalist inerrantist. I'm not demanding that the evangelists must have been expert, infallible witnesses. (None of them claims to have been at the tomb itself, anyway.) But what if one person said the auto accident happened in Chicago and the other said it happened in Milwaukee? At least one of these witnesses has serious problems with the truth.
Luke says the post-resurrection appearance happened in Jerusalem, but Matthew says it happened in Galilee, sixty to one hundred miles away! Could they all have traveled 150 miles that day, by foot, trudging up to Galilee for the first appearance, then back to Jerusalem for the evening meal? There is no mention of any horses, but twelve well-conditioned thoroughbreds racing at breakneck speed, as the crow flies, would need about five hours for the trip, without a rest. And during this madcap scenario, could Jesus have found time for a leisurely stroll to Emmaus, accepting, "toward evening," an invitation to dinner? Something is very wrong here.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Of course, none of these contradictions prove that the resurrection did not happen, but they do throw considerable doubt on the reliability of the supposed witnesses. Some of them were wrong. Maybe they were all wrong.
This challenge could be harder. I could ask why reports of supernatural beings, vanishing and materializing out of thin air, long-dead corpses coming back to life, and people levitating should be given serious consideration at all. Thomas Paine was one of the first to point out that outrageous claims require outrageous proof.
Protestants and Catholics seem to have no trouble applying healthy skepticism to the miracles of Islam, or to the "historical" visit between Joseph Smith and the angel Moroni. Why should Christians treat their own outrageous claims any differently? Why should someone who was not there be any more eager to believe than doubting Thomas, who lived during that time, or the other disciples who said that the women's news from the tomb "seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not" (Luke 24:11)?
Paine also points out that everything in the bible is hearsay. For example, the message at the tomb (if it happened at all) took this path, at minimum, before it got to our eyes: God, angel(s), Mary, disciples, Gospel writers, copyists, translators. (The Gospels are all anonymous and we have no original versions.)
But first things first: Christians, either tell me exactly what happened on Easter Sunday, or let's leave the Jesus myth buried next to Eastre (Ishtar, Astarte), the pagan Goddess of Spring after whom your holiday was named.
Here are some of the discrepancies among the resurrection accounts:
What time did the women visit the tomb?
• Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
• Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)
• Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
• John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)
Who were the women?
• Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
• Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
• Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)
• John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)
What was their purpose?
• Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)
• Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)
• Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)
• John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)
Was the tomb open when they arrived?
• Matthew: No (28:2)
• Mark: Yes (16:4)
• Luke: Yes (24:2)
• John: Yes (20:1)
Who was at the tomb when they arrived?
• Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
• Mark: One young man (16:5)
• Luke: Two men (24:4)
• John: Two angels (20:12)
Where were these messengers situated?
• Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)
• Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)
• Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)
• John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)
What did the messenger(s) say?
• Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)
• Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)
• Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)
• John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)
Did the women tell what happened?
• Matthew: Yes (28:8)
• Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)
• Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)
• John: Yes (20:18)
When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?
• Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
• Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
• Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
• John: No (20:2)
When did Mary first see Jesus?
• Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)
• Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)
• John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)
Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?
• Matthew: Yes (28:9)
• John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)
After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?
• Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)
• Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)
• Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)
• John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)
• Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)
Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?
• Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)
• Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14)
• Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)
• John: In a room, at evening (20:19)
Did the disciples believe the two men?
• Mark: No (16:13)
• Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two)
What happened at the appearance?
• Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20)
• Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19)
• Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)
• John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)
Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?
• Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday
• Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday
• John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)
• Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)
Where did the ascension take place?
• Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee
• Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)
• Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)
• John: No ascension
• Paul: No ascension
• Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)
This first appeared in Freethought Today, March, 1990
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/6/2003 2:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Welcome, 0CT0R0K
Tell them...
And this variety in "reporting" hasn't bothered His followers for near two-thousand years. Must not be their point!
They maintain, anyway, that death couldn't hold him. You somehow didn't cover that one. That means that the tomb being opened is for his follower's benefit, and not His. And iconography of the Resurrection (called "Anastasis") really proclaimes THEIR resurrection in Him. Not the events at the tomb. And the main proclaimation of His death and resurrection continues to be "painted" in the waters of Baptism -- as most everyone participating on this board will personally attest.
To those who hole their own lives cheeply (like our brother who lives in a dangerous land just to proclaim his message), who know that they have actually DIED with Him and are also RESURRECTED WITH HIM, despite it being only a "now and not yet" deal...THEY are actually "witnesses" to the event too.
Tell them...
"Thanks for the informative list. But it does not change anything."
Al
Edited by - Al2Si2H4O9 on 01/06/2003 9:03:28 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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0CT0R0K
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 1/6/2003 5:41 PM (GMT -6) | | But, this isn't for my benefit, it's more or less an apologetic position. These people want answers on this other message board, and I'm in need to help provide them. Not only to defend God's own word, but I'm given a chance to witness to these people. Thank you for your information though, very interesting, I appreciate it! 
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/6/2003 5:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Have you seen Doc's response to the same clipped article on www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1682 "posts from another board?"
quote:
GregBoyd
Postmillennialist
1477 Posts Posted - 01/06/2003 : 09:10:21 AM
-------------------------------------------------------
A few quick comments:
1. What I’d like to know is how those who DENY the resurrection explain "what happened" on Easter morning. How do we account for a band of disciples dedicating their life to preaching the resurrection in a hostile environment if it didn’t happen?
2. The differences among the accounts demonstrates that we are dealing with relatively independent traditions here. So we have to account not just for how ONE story got created, and believed, but how FIVE stories got created, and believed.
3. Is there ANY event in history about which we have multiple accounts where we don’t find exactly the sort of disagreements we find in the Gospels? JFK’s assination; Hannibuls crossing the Alps, the sinking of the Titanic… discrepancies, among eyewitnesses, all over the place. Yet no one doubts JFK was assinated, that Hannibul crossed the Alps or that the Titanic sank. We just can’t draw definitive conclusions on THE DETAILS.
4. The questions raised by Barker have been answered many times. The most recent, and perhaps most plausible, account was given by David (or Gordon?) Wenham in his book The Easter Enigma..
Blessings
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6
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Empiress
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 1/6/2003 9:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Welcome and thanks for your post!
I just wanted to mention that I believe this "challenge" is really creating a trap that need not be a trap for believers at all. We need not deny that discrepancies that exist between the narratives, we only need to make the case that the discrepancies themselves are greater proof of the -basic- belief behind the resurrection.
Let's hear it for discrepancies!!!
As you said:quote:
Another analogy sometimes used by apologists is comparing the resurrection contradictions to differing accounts given by witnesses of an auto accident. If one witness said the vehicle was green and the other said it was blue, that could be accounted for by different angles, lighting, perception, or definitions of words. The important thing, they claim, is that they do agree on the basic story--there was an accident, there was a resurrection.
But I think we can take it quite a bit further.
I first heard Luke Timothy Johnson (Roman Catholic Biblical Scholar) explain this concept during a lecture while I was in seminary. The point is this: Today in any criminal investigation, investigators are very wary of witness accounts of any incident that are too similar in detail. In fact, identical witness accounts are always a red flag that the witnesses have all been -coached- or involved in a conspiracy of some kind.
For example:
Let's say in reality a murder occurred when a gun shot was fired at exactly 5:17am on Wednesday morning inside an automobile killing the passenger. Investigators can expect the following type of stories from nieghbors in the area:
Witness 1: "I heard a loud crash around 4:30 in the morning at my neighbor's house."
Witness 2: "I think there was a fight sometime that morning outside."
Witness 3: "A car backfired 6am near out in the street."
For investigators, these varying stories are to be expected and actually make a -stronger,- not weaker case for the validity of the accounts.
The same holds true for the resurrection accounts. There OUGHT, MUST, SHOULD be variance in the resurrection accounts if the story is to believed! If all the accounts were identical, then we would have to suspect that the "witnesses" are either in conspiracy or have been coached to lie and give such identical accounts.
Humans are subjective and will experience and remember things differently. The fact that they do is a good, expected thing and the Gospel narratives are NO exception.
As far as the differences in reporting locations, that can easily be explained by the fact that many of the Gospel accounts were not written down until many years after the event. The fact that these details differ is to be expected and again, they make a stronger case for the accounts because it shows many different traditions existed!!
As I said, discrepancies are KEY to believability.
quote:
Protestants and Catholics seem to have no trouble applying healthy skepticism to the miracles of Islam, or to the "historical" visit between Joseph Smith and the angel Moroni. Why should Christians treat their own outrageous claims any differently?
We shouldn't, plain and simple. I am skeptical of all miraculous claims but also perfectly willing to accept (and do) that miracles happen in all faith traditions. Unless hard evidence can be given to totally disprove such accounts, I think we need to hold out on judgment on such claims. (Mormonism is a good candidate for such dismissal however as Mormon "archeology" has failed miserably!)
quote:
Paine also points out that everything in the bible is hearsay.
Ummmm...so is everything we know about the world history. So is everything we believe about our current world whether it is on the news or in a science book, etc. So is 99.99% of the "knowledge" any of claim to have. So what? Such is life. We're still left having to decide what to believe and what not to believe.
quote:
But first things first: Christians, either tell me exactly what happened on Easter Sunday, or let's leave the Jesus myth buried next to Eastre (Ishtar, Astarte), the pagan Goddess of Spring after whom your holiday was named.
We don't know -exactly- what happened on Easter and we never will. But again, that COMPLETELY misses the point. The accounts are believable BECAUSE they differ and the basic accounts of the resurrection continue to impact billions to this day. Besides, those whose faith is vibrant have not only HEARD the story of the risen Christ, they have EXPERIENCED the risen Christ in their own lives.
As a side note, Paganism and Christianity have A LOT in common and I believe they are just as much "sister" faiths as Judaism and Christianity are. In both cases, Christianity fulfills the expectations of the other. :)
Blessings,
~E
http://www.notasaint.com
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/7/2003 4:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Empiress: As I said, discrepancies are KEY to believability.
Al: St. John Chrysostom preached the same thing with regards to the Gospel accounts.
Empiress: Paganism and Christianity have A LOT in common and I believe they are just as much "sister" faiths as Judaism and Christianity are. In both cases, Christianity fulfills the expectations of the other. :)
Al: A very interesting read is John Breck's "The Spirit of Truth: The Origins of Johannine Pneumatology" | | Back to Top | | |
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kerygma
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 1/14/2003 5:12 PM (GMT -6) | | "We didn't start the fire..." - Billy Joel
Yawn. Another generation of unbelievers think they've thought up the key to it all. Like this hasn't all been hashed over and been debunked before. Like there aren't books and studies on this by Dr. Craig Evans, Dr. Edwin Yamauchi, Craig Blomberg, Gary Habermas, William Lane Craig, Paul Barnett, William Ramsay, F. F. Bruce, and on and on....
But then, maybe this generation of believers needs to be aware and to "sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear." 1 Peter 3:15
Here are some of the discrepancies among the resurrection accounts:
quote:
What time did the women visit the tomb?
Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)
Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)
Answer: Notice that John, the only one to mention a departure before dawn, is also the only one who mentions no women apart from Mary Magdalene. So Mary Magdalene left her home before dawn, as stated by John. She met up with the other women, (which is where the other three gospels take up the narrative), and the group went to the tomb just after dawn.
quote:
Who were the women?
Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)
John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)
Answer: All of the above. The writers were not obligated to mention every person present.
However, if we speculate that not all women made the second trip to the tomb (when they saw Jesus), we can give plausible reasons for the different lists:
John only mentions Mary Magdalene, because she was the key person (perhaps because of her prominence, either during or after Jesus' early ministry).
Matthew, along with John, is the only one to mention an appearance of Jesus to the women. John indicates that that this appearance occured on their second visit to the tomb. So Matthew only mentions the two women who also made this second visit, and hence saw Jesus that morning.
Mark and Luke only mention the first trip to the tomb, and so give fuller lists of women.
quote:
What was their purpose?
Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)
Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)
Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)
John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)
Answer: Actually in Matthew they had already seen the tomb (27:61). So the purpose was to look at the tomb and bring spices. They may not have been aware of the spicing done by Joseph of Arimathea, or they may simply have wished to do a further "anointing" (Mark 16:1).
quote:
Was the tomb open when they arrived?
Matthew: No (28:2)
Mark: Yes (16:4)
Luke: Yes (24:2)
John: Yes (20:1)
Answer: Yes. While Matthew describes the opening of the tomb, he does not say that the women witnessed it.
quote:
Who was at the tomb when they arrived?
Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
Mark: One young man (16:5)
Luke: Two men (24:4)
John: Two angels (20:12)
Answer: Two angels. Two were present, but Matthew and Mark only mention the speaker. It is clear that the "men" in Mark and Luke were intended to be understood as angels, because they were dressed in a brilliant white and (more significantly) they had a message from God for the women.
quote:
Where were these messengers situated?
Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)
Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)
Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)
John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)
Answer: John is describing the second visit to the tomb (see John 20:2), while Matthew descibes what happened before the women arrive. So only Mark and Luke describe the women's first sight of the angels.
There are at least two possible resolutions of Mark and Luke: either the angels were initially seated and the women were not startled until they stood up; or some women saw them seated, while others did not notice them until they stood up.
quote:
What did the messenger(s) say?
Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)
Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)
Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)
John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)
Answer: All of what is reported in Matthew, Mark and Luke. (John 20:13 is describing the women's second visit to the tomb).
quote:
Did the women tell what happened?
Matthew: Yes (28:8)
Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)
Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)
John: Yes (20:18)
Answer: Yes. Mark 16:8 only tells what happened initially.
quote:
When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?
Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
John: No (20:2)
Answer: Unclear. Ignore Mark 16:10-11 because Mark 16:9-20 is not part of the original gospel by Mark. But Matthew and Luke still have the women reporting the angels' message (that Jesus had risen). But, as Mark 16:8 says, the women were bewildered and did not initially tell anyone. And as Luke 24:11 says, their sounded like nonsense. So what probably happened was that the women were both bewildered and excited, and perhaps all talking at once.
So I see at least two possibilities:
Mary did know, but in the confusion John only heard part of the report, so that is all he mentions;
John only mentions Mary's report, while Matthew and Luke include the reports of the other women. Mary did not understand that Jesus had risen, while the others did. Since John only mentions Mary's report, he does not mention the resurrection. Matthew and Luke include the reports of all women, and so include the report of the resurrection.
quote:
When did Mary first see Jesus?
Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)
Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)
John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)
Answer: After. Mark 16:9-10 is not in the original gospel by Mark, and there is a gap between verses 8 and 9 of Matthew 28. During that gap, Mary returned to the disciples (as reported in John 20:2). Matthew 28:9 occured after the women gave the report then returned to the tomb, and so describes the same appearance as John 20:11-17.
quote:
Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?
Matthew: Yes (28:9)
John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)
Answer: Yes. John 20:17 is literally "stop touching me", so obviously he could be touched.
quote:
After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?
Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)
Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)
Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)
John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)
Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)
Answer: Peter, as stated by Paul and Luke. (Luke 24:34 indicates that this was before the two disciples walking to Emmaus). Matthew and John (and Mark) omit this appearance.
(Oh and Paul does mean twelve: Judas was dead but his replacement Matthias was a witness to the resurrection, as stated in Acts 1:22).
quote:
Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?
Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)
Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14)
Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)
John: In a room, at evening (20:19)
Answer: In a room at Jerusalem, as reported by Luke and John (and Mark). Matthew 28:16-20 is a later appearance.
quote:
Did the disciples believe the two men?
Mark: No (16:13)
Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two)
Answer: Yes. Mark 16:13 is not in the original gospel by Mark,
quote:
What happened at the appearance?
Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20)
Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19)
Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)
John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)
Answer: Both of what happened in Luke and John. Matthew describes a later appearance. Mark 16:14-19 is not in the original gospel by Mark,
quote:
Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?
Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday
Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday
John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)
Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)
Answer: Yes. Acts 1:3 (which was also written by Luke) makes clear there was a time gap between the resurrection and the ascension. Nowhere in Luke 24 does it say it all happened on one day. Mark 16:19 is not in the original gospel by Mark,
quote:
Where did the ascension take place?
Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee
Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)
Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)
John: No ascension
Paul: No ascension
Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)
Answer: The Mount of Olives, which is near Bethany. Luke 24:50 says "in the vicinity of Bethany" so that's no contradiction. Matthew and John do not mention the ascension but surely some sort of disappearance by Jesus is implied. Paul in fact does mention the ascension in Eph 4:8-10 and implies it in 1 Thess 1:10.
Scott
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:5
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/15/2003 1:15 AM (GMT -6) | | YO sister Empiress, where did you study under Luke Timothy Johnson? He was my professor at Yale back in 1979. He was one of my favorites...certainly the best lecturer I had as well as the most conservative (something I treasured back then a great deal as I fsometimes felt like a fundy sinking in a liberal sea).
Your response to OCTOROK reminded me of something I heard John Cameron say in his documentary on making the movie TITANIC. His team poured through all the eyewitness testimony about the event (of which there is a great deal because of the trial following the sinking). He said,
"When you start piecing together an event about which much has been written, you start finding a lot of conflicting details. But you find enough in common to start reconstructing the main lines of what actually happened."
John Cameron, "Titanic: Breaking New Ground." 3/24/98
(Regarding the historical reconstruction involved in making the movie "Titanic").
When it comes to history, this is THE RULE, not the exception. Parallel accounts rarely, if ever, totally agree on details. If they do, we automatically assume literary dependency. So the discrepancies in the resurrection accounts actually help substantiate their independence, hence their cooroberating veracity.
Blessings
Greg
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Empiress
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 1/15/2003 6:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc asked: "where did you study under Luke Timothy Johnson?"
He was the visiting scholar for a short time at one of the seminaries I attended, Nashotah House Episcopal Seminary near Milwaukee, WI. I attended all of his lectures and was really moved by his passion and persuasion. How exciting that he was your professor!
Thanks for your comments,
~E
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