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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > what does this verse mean | Forum Quick Jump
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n/a
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 12/7/2002 11:28 PM (GMT -6) |   | Luk 14:26 "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Does it contradict this scripture at all?
Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you...
Is this NOT a contradiction, because Jesus is telling them to NOT hate their enimies. Ther reason I am addressing Luke 14:26 is because I read an amazon.com review of "The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus" by Marvin Meyer, and one of the reviewers said this about the verse:
" In Luke 14:26 it says astonishingly that we are to hate our parents. But the equivalent passage in Thomas 101 adds that we are to love our parents also which agrees with Eph. 6:1-3 (first commandment with a promise). "
To take Jesus literally, it does appear that we have to hate our relatives and loved ones in order to be his disciples. What was Jesus getting at in these verses? Does the Gospel of Thomas have it right? Any help would be appreciated.
Blessings,
Paul
"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man."
-John F. Haught
Edited by - faithfullservent on 12/08/2002 04:30:53 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/8/2002 10:30 AM (GMT -6) | | Paul, I'm just "throwing this into the mix." don't expect it to blend in. OK?
I notice the Eastern Orthodox comment that while Mary was remarked upon in Matthew chapter twelve:
Jesus' Mother and Brothers
Matt. 12: 46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." 48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
The comment was that the above verse DOES NOT discount Mary's devotion ('whoever does the will of my Father in heaven') to the God-man of whom she was Mother. Rather, it points out that mere biological connection is NOT enough.
Try applying that. (Just 'how' is up to you.)
Edited by - Al2Si2H4O9 on 12/08/2002 3:32:33 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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di
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 49
| Posted 12/8/2002 2:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Luke 14:26,27 NLT "If you want to be my follower you must love me more than* your own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, more than your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. And you cannot be my disciple if you do not carry your own cross and follow me.
*Greek you must hate.
Life Application Note: Jesus' audience was well aware of what it meant to carry one's own cross...Jesus spoke this teaching to get the crowds to think through their enthusiasm for him. He encouraged those who were superficial either to go deeper or to turn back. Following Christ means total submission to him--perhaps even to the point of death.
"But don't begin until you count the cost." v 28
Christians may be hated, separated from their family, and even put to death. We must carefully count the cost of becoming Christ's disciples so that we will firmly hold to our faith and won't be tempted to turn back later.
I found this helpful and hope you do too.
In Christ's love,
di
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/8/2002 5:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Echoing di who wrote: "We must carefully count the cost of becoming Christ's disciples so that we will firmly hold to our faith and won't be tempted to turn back later." And noted the Life Application Bible: "Jesus' audience was well aware of what it meant to carry one's own cross..."
faithfullservent asked: To take Jesus literally, it does appear that we have to hate our relatives and loved ones in order to be his disciples. What was Jesus getting at in these verses? Does the Gospel of Thomas have it right? Any help would be appreciated.
The Gospel is as di mentioned. John Behr (SVOT Sem.) wrote in the article linked below, that:
quote:
Christ is presented in many different ways in the Gospels, this refers to “anything he did before the Passion and whatever happened after his Resurrection from the dead,”16 that is, the unchanging identity of theWord of God is revealed through the cross, and everything else is patterned upon this. Each episode within the narratives of the canonical Gospels proclaims, in varying ways, theGospel, while the unchanging center remains the Passion and exaltation, for this is the revelation of the Word of God.17 While Paul had declared that the death and resurrection of Christ are “according to Scripture,” the details of this are explored, in the canonical Gospels, by the evangelists’description of Christ and his activity. So, the Gospel of Jesus Christ begins, in Mark, with a passage from Isaiah; the narrative of Matthew is structured in terms of prophecy-fulfillment; in Luke, the risen Christ enlightens his disciples by showing how the Scriptures speak of him (Lk 24:27); while in John, Christ asserts categorically that “Moses spoke of me” (Jn 5:46). In contrast, a non-canonical text, such as the Gospel according to Thomas, even if it preserves authentic sayings of the “historical Jesus,” does not attempt to understand and present Christ through the medium of Scripture, nor, at least in the Gospel according to Thomas, is there a Passion.
LINKED from: www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1632
Simplified: There is no Passion in the Gospel according to Thomas. The true gospel has more than just a baby born in Bethlehem. It has Christ's passion (and ours) and His resurrection. | | Back to Top | | |
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di
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 49
| Posted 12/8/2002 7:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Dallas Willard wrote:
And here is the whole point of the much misunderstood teachings of Luke 14. There Jesus famously says one must "hate" all their family members and their own life also, must take their cross, and must forsake all they own, or they "cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26-27, 33). The entire point of this passage is that as long as one thinks anything may really be more valuable than fellowship with Jesus in his kingdom, one cannot learn from him...What this passage in Luke is about is clarity. It is not about misery, or about some incredibly dreadful price that one must pay to be Jesus' apprentice. There is no such thing as a dreadful price for the "pearl" (Matt. 13:45-46) in question. Suffering for him is actually something we rejoice to be counted worthy of (Acts 5:41; Phil. 1:29). The point is simply that unless we clearly see the superiority of what we receive as his students over every other thing that might be valued, we cannot succeed in our discipleship to him. We will not be able to do the things required to learn his lessons and move ever deeper into a life that is his kingdom. Dallas Willard, The Divine Conspiracy, pg. 292-294.
Finally, Jesus said in Matt. 10:37-39 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds (clings to) his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
In Christ's love,
di
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." --Jim Elliott
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n/a
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 12/9/2002 7:15 PM (GMT -6) | | I thank all of you for you help.
Blessings,
Paul 
"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man."
-John F. Haught | | Back to Top | | |
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