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ReasonableDoubt
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655

Posted 5/20/2003 5:11 PM (GMT -6)

To be honest, I've had a lot of difficulty refuting the "hiddenness of God" argument for the non existence of God. When we look at the world, we see the 3 monotheistic religions, Judaism, Islam, Christianity. We also see Buddhism, Hinduism, and any number of other religions. In Christianity alone, we have Roman Catholicism, Arminianism, Calvinism, now the Open View, Pentecostalism, what have you.

And there's intelligent and sincere people in each camp who believe they are correct. Obviously, we can't all be correct. Just narrowing it down to Christianity- we're all reading the same Bible and yet come away with distinctly different impressions and beliefs about what the Bible says.
This Board is a testament to it. I find it really disturbing. Is there any other area where there are so many viewpoints that are not falsifiable?
What does this mean? What if, whatever position we hold to, we are indeed the ones who are wrong even though we are convinced we are right?
I know people on this Board may say- well all evangelicals agree on the path to salvation, and that's all that matters. Well, do we, if we can't even define who or what God is? Some are saying He knows the future, others say no- others say he was compelled by love (or whatever) to create - others say no- some say he is immutable, others say he changes, the list goes on and on.
Not to mention that not even us evangelicals can agree on what is a sin or not.
I find it very discouraging.

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
--Søren Kierkegaard

Terry_Baxter
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 187

Posted 5/20/2003 5:39 PM (GMT -6)

RD (can I call you RD?)

You're expressing something that's been on my heart many times over the past few years. I think, like any other negative thought, it can be disheartening if you dwell on it.

A few quick hits because I'm going to do a devotion with the Mrs. before bedtime:

Paul explicitly forbids wrangling over words, because it profits nothing. Message board-ers tend to forget this and think the vita contemplativa we live here is Christianity. It ain't. Christianity is the cup of water to the man dying of thirst, and visiting widows, orphans and prisoners. If anything this discussion should be fun.
If it's not fun and/or edifying for you, (and I don't mean this harshly) don't do it. Spend time at a nursing home. Mow your neighbor's lawn. We can pile up words here until "we know all mysteries and all knowledge," but without love, etc. etc.

When I was 12, I ran out of church crying because I started to understand eternity. I mean a really understood being around for ever and ever and ever. It still grosses and freaks me out as I write this. I can't believe anyone wouldn't be freaked out by it if they really understood it. It even made me question my faith (how can I live forever and not sin even though I have free will?). Since then, I've just decided to turn that over to God. I made an agreement that I would just trust Him. I have sooooooooooo much evidence in my life that He's watching out for me, that He loves me and is working in my life and others', that I don't worry about it.

So, I'd urge you to keep the 'hiddenness' argument in the back of your mind, but don't let it tear you away from the Faith because you KNOW he's true, don't you? Some day (or not--I'm almost 33 and still have sleepless nights thinking about eternity) he'll help you find an answer or closure. Until then,

Be God's

on and off the message board.

Terry "Preachy" Baxter

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 5/20/2003 7:45 PM (GMT -6)

Totally understand the sentiment RD. I first confronted this in 1975, one year after having received Christ, and it was contributed to the total destruction of my faith for almost a year.

I have over the years come to believe a very few things with psychological certainty (God exists, love is what its all about, Christ definitively reveals God, I am free, I am a sinner, I need grace), others things with conviction, but without certainty (e.g. inspiration of the Bible, the future is partly open, the earth is very old etc...), many more things with slight to high probability (e.g. salvation is inclusive of non-Christians, the garden story is at least partly allegorical, the meaning of Romans 9, hell includes annihilation), even more things as simply more likely than not (e.g. harmonizing various gospel accounts, humans are tripartie, the preterist or idealist interpretation of Revelation is the most correct interpretation, we are conscious immediately after death, the Flood was local, not universal) and MOST candidates for belief as lacking enough compelling evidence at present to make any decision on (e.g. the exact meaning of arsenakotai and malakoi, the Shroud, etc.).

In my experience, people get into trouble when they hold all beliefs as EQUALLY IMPORTANT. Now they're living in a house of cards which, in the modern world, is easy to tumble.

I'd encourage you to get as solid as you can on a few foundational things -- that upon which your life stands, and for which you would die. Spend time rooting all your identity and worth in God's estimation of you in Jesus Christ. With this in place, being wrong on other points is relatively inconsequential. Its not UNimportant, but its not ALL important.

Hope this helps.

Greg

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

CalvinnHobbes
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88

Posted 5/20/2003 8:13 PM (GMT -6)

I find the myriad of interpretations and the apparent inconclusiveness disturbing and discouraging as well, RD. I'm with you. On a positive note, our painful sensitivity to this particular enigma can be a blessing in that it can promote a humility and a gentleness lacking in the dogmatists who believe it impossible that they could be wrong and who see no reason to "seek first to understand and then to be understood." If nothing else, it can encourage the beautifully Socratic ever-a-beginner-in-the-quest-for-knowledge awareness that we all so easily suppress and which, I suspect, is a virtue greater than most of us are typically willing to grant.

Considering all of this in recent months has really prompted me to ask myself how much of a part I think reason and argumentation actually play in our acceptance of truth-claims anyway. It too often seems that, no matter what the argumentation, unless the verification or falsification of our beliefs is in immediate and undeniable view and their practical consequences magnetically compelling, we all fight to the last to interpret the evidence and arguments in a way that will ensure what we want, which is usually only to remain comfortable in whatever we already cling to. I'm not trying to advocate skepticism, for none of this has any logical bearing on the truth-value of our claims, but I am finding it hard to get past such a predominant human tendency.

As far as your frustration with divine hiddenness, I hear you on that one too. To be honest, when I combine divine hiddenness with man's endless substantiation of antithetical theories and with his moral decay, I find it all supporting my growing suspicion that maybe we are all a lot freer than any of us have ever thought we are. Another way of putting this, and the more frightfully pointed rendition, is to say that, frankly, maybe God is not as involved in this world's activities as most of us would like to think. And maybe his standing back and letting us explore the freedom he has given us, with all of its terrible and glorious consequences, was his plan all along. I'm not trying to advocate full-blown deism, but maybe there is more truth in the view than most of us would dare to consider.

I don't know what any of this is worth, but I sympathize nonetheless. Great Kierkegaard quote by the way. How true.

Shane

There is no fit search after truth which does not, first of all, begin to live the truth which it knows. ~Horace Bushnell

"The longer I live, the more I read, the more patiently I think, and the more anxiously I inquire, the less I seem to know." ~President John Adams

Leila
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93

Posted 5/21/2003 3:23 AM (GMT -6)

It's funny, RD, I was just thinking of making a similar post about this very issue...

I appreciate Dr. Boyd's comments about not holding all beliefs equally. I think that's really important advice to hold onto and something of which I frequently lose sight.

Does anyone ever think that maybe the answer to a lot of these questions is one which simply transcends our understanding and that we are trying to rationalize that which may not be rationalizable? I'm not saying this stuff isn't important -- I for one could never blindly hold onto any belief without challenging and questioning it. But I think there's a danger in it as well -- particularly since there will never be a definitive answer to any of this in our lifetime.

Personally, I think that I need to simplify things, focus on having the "faith of a child," and spend more time talking to God instead of about Him. Again, not saying these discussions aren't helpful or important, just that they can sometimes distract from the important things -- especially for one, such as myself, whose foundation is not so solid.

Just my humble opinion for what it's worth...

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 5/21/2003 4:28 AM (GMT -6)

"spend more time talking to God instead of about Him."

Well said, Leila. Well said.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

tlcim
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 1

Posted 5/21/2003 4:35 AM (GMT -6)

Brett,

Good answer, assuming it is God you are addressing. Unfortunately for Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and others, it isn't God they are addressing and you find that God seems to confirm His identity through communities in the N.T. rather than individuals.

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/21/2003 5:07 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Another way of putting this, and the more frightfully pointed rendition, is to say that, frankly, maybe God is not as involved in this world's activities as most of us would like to think. And maybe his standing back and letting us explore the freedom he has given us, with all of its terrible and glorious consequences, was his plan all along. I'm not trying to advocate full-blown deism, but maybe there is more truth in the view than most of us would dare to consider.

Good stuff Shane. As Tozer says, “God wants us to consult our own sanctified preferences.” God expresses no choice. We are in a dance. One partner leads, the other follows. The one who follows is not passive or limp, but eagerly engaged in response. There is give and take, point and counter point. The one who follows exercises a personal will in the dance. The leader does not drag the other. Rather, the genius of the dance is that as one leads, the other follows in full response. Both are fully engaged. The question, RD, is this, do you like Ball Room dancing?

Brandon
Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.--Isa 49:15-16

Edited by - BBBCanada on 05/21/2003 10:11:12 AM

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 5/21/2003 5:16 AM (GMT -6)

BBBBBCCanada quoth:

quote:

One partner leads, the other follows. The one who follows is not passive or limp, but eagerly engaged in response.

Have you never been to a junior high dance???

Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through?

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 5/21/2003 5:22 AM (GMT -6)

Yer such a dawg Laika...man...there are a lot of dawgs around here!

Laplace
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138

Posted 5/21/2003 5:44 AM (GMT -6)

ReasonableDoubt,

I empathyze with you because I believe that you and I have the same fundamental struggle with not knowing the "Why" given:

- We believe that "salvation" is exclusive (meaning there isn't more than one path to God)
- The results of being "wrong" are quite significant, even mind-blowing (eternity spend iis a long time to in Hell)
- God knows the majority of people will be there

So the question comes, "Why does God not make Himself more obvious given the gravity of the situation?" Or, "Why does God not give equal light to everyone, allowing many to never even hear about the man from Galilee?". Or, "Why does He allow Satan to deceive the massess in other religions about false teachings?" The Bible speaks about people who truly believed they would be saved yet were wrong (Matt 7:21-23).

I admit I have difficulty accepting God's goodness in this aspect, but given I don't have the whole picture and I'm not sovereign like God is I accept it as "good" because all other evidence says so, and the book of Job addresses the issue of "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

I PERSONALLY believe that God will judge all people based upon the condition of their heart. Meaning that it is possible for the tribeman in Africa to be saved even if he has just the faintest idea of what God is, but is aware of his sinfulness and realizes that there's nothing that he can do on his own to help himself but reach out to God.

But as for the Muslim though who dismisses Christ as simply a "good teacher", the Bible says that such a man is the antichrist (1 John 2:22-23). This equates rejecting Christ as rejecting Allah/Yaweh/etc.

I cannot say HOW God will judge all people at the end of their days, but I can confidently say that it will be completely just, and that whatever punishment is received it will not be "too much" or "too little". And we can all take comfort in that.

"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment

Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 5/21/2003 6:34 AM (GMT -6)

Laplace

I cannot say HOW God will judge all people at the end of their days, but I can confidently say that it will be completely just, and that whatever punishment is received it will not be "too much" or "too little". And we can all take comfort in that.

Iconoclast

Wow Laplace, I can't say that I take ANY comfort in that thought at all. The last thing I want to receive is my just punishment. Now, that would be a really bad day. I don't want justice, I want MERCY. Who wants justice?

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Edited to fix my original misquoting of Laika.

Edited by - Iconoclast on 05/22/2003 09:04:39 AM

rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 5/21/2003 6:51 AM (GMT -6)

Hey all...

Great topic! Terry, the exact same thing happened to me when I was about nine or ten when the idea of eternity started to sink in. It took me a while, but I finally got to the point where I have decided that God knows best and that if he created me for eternity, then it will work out. But eternity still freaks me out...

Ross

"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid

Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 5/21/2003 7:43 AM (GMT -6)

I think that the concept of hell and eternity hit me more in high school. I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder so my thoughts at that time when I wasn't taking medication were running rampant with whether or not I was going to make it to heaven. I was so paranoid that I'd do something that would make me unsaved and I remember sitting in a class one day next to a window and looking out at the beautiful trees and thinking, "I'm going to hell." I can't tell you how absolutely miserable that makes you feel! I don't know what God did to lift me out of that lie, but He did since I really did believe then as I do now that Jesus is salvation. It's just that back then, I was still unclear about salvation through Jesus. I had a friend who was in one of those radical churches that took the Bible destructively literally and she used to make me more paranoid about "staying saved."

But, during the last few months, The Lord has really been breaking through my walls of spiritual hermitness and He's shown me just how much He loves me and that His salvation will always count for me! I praise You, Jesus!

Tigress

The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 5/21/2003 7:51 AM (GMT -6)

Oh, speaking of the "hiddeness of God" I have to tell you this cool story!

When my older brother, Tom, and I were kids, (he was probably 12 or so, and I was probably 7) I remember laying in bed in my room, hearing him call out to my mom from his room saying that he had this bizarre dream. He dreamt that he was walking and talking with God. He asked God about a lot of the stuff that we all want to know, i.e. the cosmos, His power, etc. Then Tom asked how God could just be there from all eternity, having never been created by anyone. And God told him the answer but told him to never tell anyone what it was. Tom said it was so simple that it was remarkable. But, when he woke up, he could remember EVERYTHING about the dream EXCEPT the answer God gave him to his question! (Enter the "Twilight Zone" theme.)

Isn't that funny! It's sooo like something God would do!

Tigress

The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 5/21/2003 12:29 PM (GMT -6)

Raphael, amidst his tenderness, shows such a dignity and condescension in all his behavior, as are suitable to a superior nature.

From out here in left field, my Father looks masculine. - Me

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 5/21/2003 3:16 PM (GMT -6)

I am frustrated in how my own presuppositions are either in the way, needing refinement, or are fine (but I'm not sure if they're fine). But worse and most frustrating is my Self. The God of the Bible has not always been clear in addressing our presuppositions, but He has surely been clear in having addressed the Self of man. We can live with mis-placements and mis-understandings of the former, but not of the latter. God leaves no room for self--its haughtiness, its desire to be its own god, its desire to "add to" that which only God can perform.

I have a world-view and Biblical presuppositions. I'm an open theist. (I don't know even have a strong belief as to when the rapture will be. For sooth!) I'm still growing in learning to love and finding deeper meaning in my walk with God. My walk with God, then, is either baggaged with good and necessary or unnecessary and heavy presuppositions; They will hopefully be sculptured (or eliminate) to find more of Christ and His image in me. Oh, it's frustrating at times. Enough to often cause me to question why I am even still stuck here on this planet. "Can't I just go home, God, and be done with it?" All of this, however, I can live with.

What I can't live with--and ultimately neither can God--is the destructive poison of Self. The thoughts of Self, the heart of Self, the sin of Self. A noble creature I am--made in the image of a noble God--but I am horribly disfigured and corrupted, overun with Self trying to not compete with God but kill Him, destroy Him, crucify Him again. Anything to rid Him from being in my way. This Self is something neither God nor I can live with. The Self is not only frustrating, it is the worst of poisonings; it hates God and often times other Selves.

Having been on this board for a well over a year, I've learned the peace of living with my presuppositions, my baggage--all of which are constantly in question and suspect, but nevertheless my good friends. I am not so frustrated by them or others as much as I wish to refine from my experience of these in my life. And I have learned to hate sin and Self all the more; I try to stay close to the Master.

Being on this board has frustrated me when I not only find my presuppositions may be (or are) skewed, but I'm not even able to think clearly enough to figure out why they're skewed. I have, however, absolutely no problem understanding my Self wanting to be its own god. That becomes clearer every day, whether I want it to or not.

I'm also frustrated with having over-digested too much of other people's words instead of having kept my mind more open. But I can live with this and do so happily.

I'm frustrated when there's simply not enough information (or I have not found enough) to clear the much and mire. But, again, I can live with this and happily so.

I cannot, however, live with myself. It must die and die daily. Of all life's forces, bombardments and attacks, it is my own Self against whom I battle most fiercely to keep out of my way . . . out of His way. The less it seems the Self is in the way, the more I am aware of its presence. This, more than anything else, is the frustration of frustrations. Everything is really child's play compared to the battle within.

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?
Charlie Brown

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 5/22/2003 1:04 AM (GMT -6)

Right

adiaphora
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 123

Posted 5/22/2003 3:33 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Laika

I cannot say HOW God will judge all people at the end of their days, but I can confidently say that it will be completely just, and that whatever punishment is received it will not be "too much" or "too little". And we can all take comfort in that.

Iconoclast

Wow Laika, I can't say that I take ANY comfort in that thought at all. The last thing I want to receive is my just punishment. Now, that would be a really bad day. I don't want justice, I want MERCY. Who wants justice?

thanks,
Iconoclast

Iconoclast, I think you are actually quoting Laplace, not Laika.

Thanks,
adiaphora

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 5/22/2003 4:01 AM (GMT -6)

Laika

quote:

Laika

I cannot say HOW God will judge all people at the end of their days, but I can confidently say that it will be completely just, and that whatever punishment is received it will not be "too much" or "too little". And we can all take comfort in that.

Iconoclast

Wow Laika, I can't say that I take ANY comfort in that thought at all. The last thing I want to receive is my just punishment. Now, that would be a really bad day. I don't want justice, I want MERCY. Who wants justice?

Who are you quoting? Because you're not quoting me.

I want Mercy too. Maybe you should direct your reply to the person you're quoting?

Iconoclast

Oops! Sorry about that Laika. I see now that I was really quoting Laplace. I will fix my post and be more careful in the future.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/22/2003 5:42 AM (GMT -6)

Icon:

quote:
Laplace: I cannot say HOW God will judge all people at the end of their days, but I can confidently say that it will be completely just, and that whatever punishment is received it will not be "too much" or "too little". And we can all take comfort in that.

Iconoclast: Wow Laplace, I can't say that I take ANY comfort in that thought at all. The last thing I want to receive is my just punishment. Now, that would be a really bad day. I don't want justice, I want MERCY. Who wants justice?

Icon-

Your quote is from ReasonableDoubt.

Remember back on Leila’s thread “Am I really a Christian” (http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=2&ARCHIVEVIEW=&TOPIC_ID=1989) we were talking about the exclusivism/inclusivism thing? There I said something you liked and affirmed:

quote:
If I have doubts about the interpretation of texts which describe what the future holds for the unevangelized or for others who rejected Christ but may not have really understood him (or for whatever reason may have been unable to accept him), I need not have doubts about the God who knows what the truth of those texts really is.

I think RD is just saying the same thing when she says that God’s judgment, whatever it is, will be just. If she agrees that the African savage will be saved if only she abandons self-reliance in faith for whatever concept of God she has, then RD is in principal an inclusivist.

I think you’re right too. We want mercy, not what we deserve. But I don’t think RD was disagreeing. I’d think she was just saying that whatever a person gets in the end, IF it’s judgment, it’ll be a judgment that follows (not excludes) our refusal of every mercy God showed us.

RD, this makes you sound very much like an Arminian at least, certainly not a theological determinist. Something’s gotta give.

Tom

Edited by - TGB on 05/22/2003 10:45:14 AM

honorman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 5/22/2003 10:12 AM (GMT -6)

Who ISN'T confused and frustrated?

SIM
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 90

Posted 5/31/2003 8:34 AM (GMT -6)

RD:And there's intelligent and sincere people in each camp who believe they are correct. Obviously, we can't all be correct. Just narrowing it down to Christianity- we're all reading the same Bible and yet come away with distinctly different impressions and beliefs about what the Bible says.

SIM: Boy, have I been there, both in the far and recent past. Though not nearly so much recently, since I've not had the leisure time or desire to spend much of it on this forum :). I don't want to be critical, because a lot of good stuff happens here, if only to help and motivate people to think more deeply about who God is, and hopefully for many to get nearer the truth. BUT, I also think Satan and associates are quite pleased at how many times even the Christians here get so bogged down philosophizing ABOUT God that we begin to lose relationship WITH Him and move further instead of nearer.

What helps me tremendously when I'm in the doldrum of confusion is something that C.S. Lewis said about how we should think about the Bible. First let me explain to any who don't know: Lewis was one of the foremost and respected experts on myth. He studied, wrote, and taught extensively about myth. He also wrote a children's and adult series of mythical books. He wrote that when he began to study the Bible, he was struck at how different Biblcal "myth", or what he called "true myth" was to all other mythical stories. His conclusion is that the Bible is not myth in the sense that all other myths are. That it in fact happened.

Lewis' recommended approach in reading the Bible: (Paraphrased by memory) The safest attitude and the attitude that gets us closest to the truth is a literal belief in the Biblical accounts.

He went on to explain that it is humanly impossible for us to understand the full truth anyway, and any "scientific" or logical understanding that we can actually accomplish is still far from the full truth.

He likened it to the (at that time) scientific understanding of reality having to do with the atomic structure of a chair versus our day to day understanding of the solid object that we sit on. Which is closer to the truth? Well, probably -and especially- at that time, the latter belief, because scientific knowledge of atomic structure was much less complete before the electron microscope. But he also said that as we learn more and more "accurate" structural information about chairs, are we really coming closer to the actual truth, or are we adding data that we cannot comprehend well enough to even approach the full truth of matter, and is in fact taking us further from truth because of our lack of ability to comprehend even what we do know?

I believe that as Christians, we must coninually keep foremost in our minds and hearts that no matter which camp we place ourselves, whether Calvinist, Arminian, Open View, or the Balanced View (safeguarding both God's sovereignty and man's free will) we cannot come close to comprehending full truth.

Starkman says: What I can't live with--and ultimately neither can God--is the destructive poison of Self. The thoughts of Self, the heart of Self, the sin of Self. A noble creature I am--made in the image of a noble God--but I am horribly disfigured and corrupted, overun with Self trying to not compete with God but kill Him, destroy Him, crucify Him again.

I think the fall in the Garden of Eden is exactly that: Self enthronement.

I think humans are so adept at dethroning God and enthroning not-God, that we can even do that when philosophizing ABOUT God, His Sovereignty and Free Will.

Confusion will only clear up when we begin to talk TO God - THE TRUTH - at least as much as we talk ABOUT Him, starting with me!
SIM

Psalm 139:4 "Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD."

Christian
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 78

Posted 5/31/2003 10:02 AM (GMT -6)

SIM said, "I also think Satan and associates are quite pleased at how many times even the Christians here get so bogged down philosophizing ABOUT God that we begin to lose relationship WITH Him and move further instead of nearer."

It is so simplistic, yet so profound, the idea of being WITH God vs. talking about Him. Talking about Him can also be quite different than philosophizing about Him. I take great joy in talking about God but I have little satisfaction with philosophizing about Him. It tends to lead me closer towards frustration and further from God. It is not easy to be still and quiet before the Lord. It takes discipline spending time in the Word, in prayer, in quietness.

SIM said, "Confusion will only clear up when we begin to talk TO God -THE TRUTH - at least as much as we talk ABOUT Him, starting with me!"

Me too SIM! Thank you for reminding me of this and stirring me on to seek the Lord. Your words were refreshing and a good reminder that the only peace & joy I will truly find will be when I am communing WITH God in my life. I tend to get preoccupied with other things at the sacrifice of my prayer life and Bible study and this was a good reminder for me of its importance for it truly is so very important to our well-being.

Edited by - Christian on 05/31/2003 3:08:24 PM

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 6/1/2003 12:59 AM (GMT -6)

Christian:

quote:
I take great joy in talking about God but I have little satisfaction with philosophizing about Him.

Couldn't agree more. I know there's folk out there who are the exception--they draw very close to God as they think about Him in a philosophical manner, but I am, for sure, not one of those. I get a good feeling that I was able to think through something, but I feel none-the-more closer to God.

Ah! But when I think on theological concepts like "You are the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13) compared with God's command regarding the Grain Offering, "Do not leave out the salt of the covenant of your God out of your grain offerings; add salt to all your offerings" (Leviticus 2:13), boy the "thinking" starts and the spirit gets fed. Now that's something (for me, at least) to think about. Better than philosophizing is theologizing!

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?
Charlie Brown

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