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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > adam and eve - really real? | Forum Quick Jump
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June
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 10/1/2002 9:57 AM (GMT -6) |   |
is there any benefits to believing that adam and eve were not literal? it seems like you have to jump through a bunch of hoops that you don't have to if you affirm that adam and eve were literal. just a thought........
june
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Alan Rhoda
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 10/1/2002 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
is there any benefits to believing that adam and eve were not literal? it seems like you have to jump through a bunch of hoops that you don't have to if you affirm that adam and eve were literal.
I concur, June.
At least on face value, the exegetical testimony seems to lean quite clearly on the side of a literal Adam and Eve. If Jesus and Paul refer to Adam as though Adam were a historical figure, then prima facie we ought to take them at their word. The burden of proof ought to be on the nay-sayers.
As for the scientific case, I'll make two points. First, the scientific case for gradual descent all the way from one-celled organisms to man is far weaker than staunch evolutionists like Dawkins, Miller, Gould, Lewonkin, etc. make it out to be. Recent books by Behe, Dembski, Wells, Johnson, etc. have raised serious questions about several aspects of the case for naturalistic evolution. Second, one can grant almost all of the evolutionary story and still have a literal Adam and Eve. In fact, well-known research on human mitochondrial DNA has shown that all living humans have decended from a single common ancestor, the so-called "mitochondrial Eve", sometime within the past couple hundred thousand years. The only aspect of the standard evolutionary story that is incompatible with a literal Adam and Eve is the idea of developmental continuity between humans and animals. The Bible, on the contrary, depicts humans as distinct from animals. We are created "in the image of God"; animals are not. If that is true, then even if everything else evolved just as neo-Darwinists claim, God must have specially intervened to create the first human.
Interesting discussion.
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 10/1/2002 11:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Good stuff, Alan. Thanks.
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 10/1/2002 1:41 PM (GMT -6) | | I think Electra's point still stands. That is, whether you posit a historical Adam and Eve or not, is not necessarily the point. The problem seems to be that we need historical accuracy to insist upon the truth of what the Bible teaches.
Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 10/1/2002 3:52 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/1/2002 5:05 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm not totally convinced the straightforward reading of this narrative is literal history... like what we would have seen and heard had we been there with a video camera. The two trees, naming all the animals, the talking wise snake, the two cheribum guarding the entrance of the garden... this isn't on the same level as believing a miracle. If we read it anywhere else besides the Bible, wouldn't we instinctively take it as mythological?
With others, I don't see anything at stake here. If it happened that way literally, fine. My only concern is that in taking it literally, a person may limit its profundity. I have been blown away about how Genesis 3 speaks universally about human life -- MY life. I also find that SOME who take it all literally -- and turn it into a polemical issue around this point -- miss this profundity.
Whether there was an actual tree in the middle of an actual garden which gave the knowledge of good and evil -- the more profound point, in my view, is that OUR life revolves around honoring God's prohibition not to try to be like God, "knowing good and evil." Its not just an account of what happen "once upon a time." It tells our story NOW.
Greg
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 10/2/2002 8:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon: considering the Bible has been far more acturate as time goes on and as been proven to be more historical than evolution, I would say we need to insist on historical accuracy for the theories that come against. I think the Bible deserves the benefit of the doubt, rather than the "mythical" treatment so many "Christians" seem to need to give it.
Props to Starkman and Alan for (unfortunately) their good work in pointing out the obvious. Sometimes I wonder what Bible some Christians are reading: God's or their own.
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writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 10/2/2002 8:58 AM (GMT -6) | | I also have to go on record as saying that I find it sad and disappointing that Doc would say it "doesn't matter" either way, that a minister of the gospel would take such a position on such a vial issue. But it does keep me from getting locked into this "cult of personality," so in that sense its okay. And its not enough to make throw away and burn his books...so I guess I'm dealing with it...
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 10/2/2002 3:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Writerdad: it does keep me from getting locked into this "cult of personality," so in that sense its okay.
Doc: If it kept you from getting locked into a "cult of personality," then I have done both you and I a great service indeed.
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 10/2/2002 5:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Daddy,
I would say that we "sidestep" the inherent problems raised by the Genesis record by not insisting on it's historical veracity and by suggesting that God can use different genres of literature to convey truth. Scholarship is increasingly emphasizing this. Read Pinnock's "The Scripture Principle."
Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 10/3/2002 12:51 AM (GMT -6) | | I'd definitely say that the profundity of the issue of the first few chapters of Genesis is, beyond doubt, the heart of the issue. Big time. However, considering Doc's idea of a camera only seems to emphasize the importance of taking the record literally. Consider . . .
Crime scenes and accidents are viewed by two different people from two different angles. Things are sceen differently; different perspectives. The record of Genesis is one perspective, very much in view of the profundity of the matter. The idea of a camera in in the garden is another perspective.
The snake, like Balaam's ass, isn't necessarily "talking", in that vocal cords are given to it, it now knows Hebrew, etc. The voice came from the ass perhaps from an assistance, like God Himself or an angel. The snake doesn't have to literally talk itself, but the voice given to it is one of Satan.
The trees are merely trees, that's all. Their fruit is irrelevant from the cameara angle. Their just trees. The point of what it means to eat from them is given clearly from the Genesis record. Otherwise, one probably wouldn't think too much differently about them from the camera angle.
And the Cheribum? Well, if we can believe in angels, we can believe in Cheribum. They aren't around the garden today, though, because perhaps the garden . . . sunk, as in . . . Atlantas?!
Well, I think it's something to think about, and that's all the more time I have to write. Truck driving school awaits me!
For the Cheribum!
Starkman
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/3/2002 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Theology in color:
Anastasis. (The resurrection of Adam and Eve--in Christ--and our resurrection too.)
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 10/3/2002 12:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Way cool, AL!
Starkman
(I am SO looking forward to our resurrection! Big time!)
Edited by - Starkman on 10/03/2002 5:54:36 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 10/3/2002 1:22 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
(I am SO looking forward to our resurrection! Big time!)
Me too!
Orthodox liturgies have in them a place where it is sung (Resurrectional Gospel Post-Gospel Stichira):
"Having beheld the Resurrection of Christ, let us bow down before the holy Lord Jesus, the only sinless One. Thy Cross do we worship, O Christ, and thy holy Resurrection we hymn and glorify, for thou art our God; we know no other than thee; thy name do we name. Come, all ye faithful, let us worship Christ's holy Resurrection, for, behold, through the Cross joy hath come into all the world. Ever blessing the Lord, let us hymn His Resurrection. By enduring the Cross for us, by death hath He abolished death.
Shine, shine, O New Jerusalem, for the glory of the Lord hath risen upon thee. Dance and rejoice, O Zion, and, thou, O pure Theotokos, exult in the rising of Him thou didst bear.
O great and holiest Pascha, Christ. O Wisdom and Word of God and Power, grant us truly to partake of thee in the day without evening of thy kingdom."
And then later:
"Come, O people, let us sing a song to Christ our God, who divided the sea and made a path for the nation which He had brought out of the bondage of Egypt; for He is glorified."
Its like in my Charismatic days, singing "We are able to go up and take the country, to possess the land from Jordan to the sea. Though the giants may be there our way to hinder, God has given us the victory.
Amen.
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DrSnug
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 10/9/2002 12:47 PM (GMT -6) | | it doesn't seem like this discusssion has progressed in a while so being new to this, I would love to have the final word. I'm no theologian, but I'll stick to what I know, biology. My approach is sort of backwards as a Christian, but I think it's the only way. Apparently, a PhD in biology allows you to opine about philosophy also. Furthermore, this degree means that you are right about all biology and your theories are always truth. I'm in the middle of getting my PhD in molecular and cellular biology. I know as much or more about the theories of evolution as any one of my professors here. I'm not missing out on anything and nobody out there has slipped any info by me that profoundly credits the theory of evolution. You can read all the books and be very confused by the jargon, but take it from a biologist who happens to believe in the salvation of Christ, macroevolution has no merit. Aristotle's ideas pervaded society for a thousand years and he was wrong about some. Evolution has emerged within the last 150 years and the more science we learn, the more statistics we learn, the more astronomy we learn...the more we learn the Truth... the more we will be confused. I've learned that God's creation is so incredibly complex that we will NEVER know how it all works. Yes, evolution is sensible because of the conservation of biological function. Homologous proteins in prokaryotes to eukaryotes do serve the same biological function, but just because there is conservation of DNA sequence and protein function does not mean that "advantageous" mutations were conserved. Show me an advantageous mutation and I'll show you a sinful Neandrathal. Thank you and good night.
Doug
"I solemnly swear to tell the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth; so help me God." | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/9/2002 1:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Starkman: The snake, like Balaam's ass, isn't necessarily "talking"...
I personally wouldn't be interested in hearing anything come out of Balaam's ass.
Tom 
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 10/9/2002 2:29 PM (GMT -6) | | To you, O TGB . . . (where the hek's the smiley faces? Oh, there they are . . . )
SHOCKED, I TELL YOU, SHOCKED!
For the talking asses all over the world,
Starkman
Hey Drsnug,
Dude, I'm big time with you on the so-called advantageous mutations! Yeah, right!
For the Mutant Ninjas!
Starkman
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