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|  OrthodoxBerean Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 82 | Posted 11/6/2002 3:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | Here is a conversation on another board between a neo-Oneness believer and a Trinitarian. The one that is responding is the Oneness person. What are your thoughts on this oneness believers ideas?
You said in #3 of your three-point breakdown of my assertions:
quote: “The Son (person) is a the same person [as the Father] in metaphysical union with a human nature, and thus a real human being. (This would exclude the Father in #2, and the person of the Father, according to you is diety to the excusion of everything else).”
I would disagree with the last part. My view is that God is one person, and that one person has come to exist as man by bringing human nature into union with His divine person, personally existing as man through the attributes inherent to the human nature. However, when God came to exist as man in this fashion He did not cease existing as He always has as God, beyond the incarnation. The Father and Son are not two divine persons, but the same divine person in two distinct modes of existence. The Son is distinct from the Father, not in the identity of His deity, but in the mode of His existence, for the one divine person has come to exist in two ways: as God, as man. The divine person does not change, but rather His manner of existence. God’s continued manner of existence beyond the incarnation as God is referred to as “Father,” while God’s manner of existence as man is referred to as “Son.” These terms are relational terms that arose in the incarnation. I say all of that to say this: it would be impossible to exclude the deity of the Father from the Son because there is only one divine person, and the Son is that one divine person existing in a human way through the assumed human nature (not human person), so it would be impossible to say that the Father is excluded because Christ is God’s one person Himself existing as man. I believe the confusion lies in the way we define the terms “Father” and “Son.” You use “Father” and “Son” to distinguish divine persons, whereas Oneness theology uses “Father” and “Son” to distinguish between one divine person’s dual manner of existence. We do not call the Son “Father” because the Father is specifically used to refer to God’s manner of existence beyond the incarnation, while “Son” specifically refers to God’s existence as man.
You went on to say
quote: “You have two persons, one who is exclusive diety, and one who is a human being.”
Come one now Layman! How long have I been with you and yet thou hast not known me!?!? I believe I am a fairly clear writer. After reading all that I have written previously, how could you conclude such? Where have I ever said there are two persons? I have repeatedly said that there is one person existing in two ways. In the incarnation God assumed human nature, not a human person. In Christ there is only one person, God, and He is existing as man through the attributes inherent to the human nature He brought into union with Himself in the incarnational act. The one divine person possesses two natures, meaning He possesses the essential attributes of both deity and humanity.
Let me quote you an excerpt from an upcoming article which drives this point home. I know you hate long posts, but you should know me by now! I do not expect, nor want you to respond to the following string of excerpts, but I want to make it abundantly clear as to what I am saying, both to you, and to all those who are reading (note: some of these statements have footnotes for references which will not come through on this post):
quote: “The number of wills in Christ becomes clear when we understand the nature of the incarnation. The incarnation is not a mere indwelling of God in a man, but God coming to be man. The incarnation did not bring into being a separate human person, but rather it was God Himself taking on a new manner of existence as man. (See my article entitled Avoiding the Achilles Heel of Trinitarianism, Modalistic Monarchianism, and Nestorianism: The Acknowledgment and Proper Placement of the Distinction Between Father and Son) The difference between Jesus and all other men lies in the fact that we are man existing as man, while Jesus is God existing as man, not God existing as God and man existing as man together in union. To say Jesus is God existing as man and man existing as man together in union creates two personal subjects, and two centers of consciousness in Christ. Such a confession falls into the same error inherent to Nestorianism and Adoptionism; i.e. it confesses the existence of a distinct human person from the divine person in Christ. God became man; God did not become a man. God's humanity was not that of a distinct human person, but was genuine human nature hypostasized (made personal) by God Himself. There is only one personal subject in Christ—God—not two.
“Jesus is God existing as man, not God and a man existing together in one geographical locale; not a divine person and a human person coexisting side-by-side. Because Jesus is God existing as man, of necessity there can only be one personal subject in Christ, not two. God is that personal subject. Just as we are the subject of all our acts, likewise God is the subject of all Christ’s acts. Yet in Christ God is not acting as God, but as man. Everything Christ does He does as man because in Christ God has come to be man, and has come to act through human nature. Jesus is not God willing as God, and man willing as man in conjunction with one another, but God willing as man through His human mode of existence.
“There can be no equivocation of a nature and a person, however. A nature is the essential properties or attributes that mark off what sort of thing an individual is. Human nature (physis) is abstract, generic substance common to all mankind. A person, however, is concrete, immaterial conscious substance, a personality, a self; an individual who consists of a certain nature; the particularization of a generic substance. A person is the concrete self, the ego, defining who it is who is of a particular substance. It takes a concrete person (hypostasis) to actualize the generic nature. In the case of Christ, the person who actualizes the human nature is God, not a separate human person.
“While an act (such as the exercising of the will) is the work of a person, not a nature, the nature is the action’s cause/means of actualization, execution, or implementation. Normally there is one hypostasis for each physis. In the case of Christ, however, there are two physeis (natures) for one hypostasis (person). There are two distinct sources of causation for all of Christ's acts, yet only one person to actualize them. Since Christ’s natures are distinct the cause of His actions are distinct, yet because of the union of the natures in the one person all of Christ’s acts are actualized by that one person, and should be considered theandric acts. All of Christ’s activities must be “ascribed to the self that commits them.” Christ's actions, thoughts, and will have God as their subject, because in Christ God Himself is existing as man.
“The actions of Christ do not flow from His natures, but from His person. The divine person utilizes each nature to perform the functions peculiar to each, but both natures are motivated by the one and selfsame person. The one person of Christ carries out His activities in, through, and with both natures. The natures do not act; the person acts. The “one incarnate Logos does by means of each nature the acts that are appropriate to it,” deciding the actions made possible by the natures.
“We must confess that Christ's experiences have a duality of origin because of His duality of natures, but His experiences all exude forth from a single person. He could not sleep, for example, if it were not for His human nature giving Him the capacity to experience fatigue and rest. Likewise, Christ could not will as man if it were not for His human nature giving Him the capacity to will in a human manner. The human will of Christ pertains properly to the humanity “according to its nature, but to God according to the person, for there is one person consisting of both” deity and humanity. God willed as man in and through His human existence, via the human properties that were His by virtue of the hypostatic union of His divine person and the human nature. Jesus may be able to experience certain experiences because of His divine identity, and others because of His human identity, “but ultimately it is He Himself and not either of His natures, who has the experience and is the subject of them.” All of Christ’s human actions are to be predicated of the personal subject in Christ: God. Since there is only one personal subject in Christ, God is the subject of all divine and human acts and attributes.
“Nestorius erred in that he posited a human subject who performed human actions and a divine subject who performed divine actions in conjunction with one another. Christ's human experiences were not predicated of God, but the assumed human person. This is a denial of a true incarnation and akin to Adoptionism. Cyril rightly understood that God became man, not that God and a man were united in one common person, as Nestorius called it. Jesus is one person subsisting in two natures, not two persons subsisting in two natures united in one external and functional conjunction. Because God assumed a human nature, making it personal, God Himself can will as man in Christ without Christ being a separate human person.”
You went on to say
quote: “Or you have violated the law of non-contradiction and asserted that one person both is and is not the same thing simultaneously.”
I believe you are misunderstanding something somewhere. Nowhere have I said that God is and is not something. God only is something simultaneously: God, man. There is no contradiction to say that God exists both as He is in Himself as God, and that He also has come to exist as man. If that is a contradiction, then all Christians who believe in an incarnation believe in a contradiction. Besides, if I am to be faulted, then you need to fault your fellow Trinitarian believers. This whole “dual existence for one person” thing is not unique to me. If you read through my article and reference the footnotes you will notice an amazing thing: they are Trinitarians that I am referencing! This is not some new Oneness concept, but is maintained by Trinitarians as well. To deny it, as you seem to be doing, is to deny an essential Trinitarian teaching: God the Son came to exist as man, and yet continued to exist as He always has in Himself as God. His one person has a dual manner of existing. You can read all the way back to the Fathers and find this same concept. It is nothing new.
You said
quote: “After the incarnation, the divine person of the Son was never exclusive deity (to the exclusion of humanity, or a human nature). His divinity (divine nature) was unchanged by the incarnation, His divinity being no more or less divine as a result of the incarnation.”
I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. When I speak of the Father as being “exclusive deity” I in no wise mean to indicate that He is somehow disconnected from the union with the human nature, whereas the Son is connected. I mean what the church fathers meant; i.e. when God became man He did not cease being God, and begin to be man. The incarnation was not a mutation of God into man. He is now both God and man simultaneously, in two distinct modes of existence. When God became man, He did not cease to inhabit the heavens, but continued to exist as the omnipresent Spirit He is. I mean what you were being emphatic on, which is that God did not change in the incarnation. He remained who He is. Jesus is God, but God existing as man. The divine person did not change, but His manner of existence did. He is now man in addition to being God, simultaneously.
I completely agree with point #4 (except for the identity of the one who was incarnated). To confess otherwise is to be Nestorian, confessing a separate human person (subject) from the divine person. I also completely agree with #5 and #6.
You said
quote: “You are partially correct. It is true that Oneness and Trinitarian theologies differ on the identity of the person who was incarnated. What is not true is that this is the only place our Christologies differ as see above.”
I agree, but I have never said that this is the only place we differ, at least as it pertains to the metaphysics of the incarnation. When it comes to explaining the functional relationship of the Father and Son we begin seeing some major differences, but the issue of the incarnation is a metaphysical issue. When we are talking about the metaphysical realities of what happened in the incarnation, we agree, excepting the identity of the one who was incarnated. If you disagree with that please tell me what else you see as different because I know of none, and have not read of any in any others in any Trinitarian works.
You said
quote: “There is not one person of the Son who is divine and human, and one who is exclusively divine.”
And neither is there in Oneness theology. I can understand how some of my terminology may have skewed this point, so let me clarify. There is one person. That one person exists as God, and God is divine nature. That one person has united human nature to Himself, existing as man through it, without ceasing to be and exist as who He is and always has been. Just because He has added human nature to Himself, coming to exist as man, however, does not mean that He can no longer exist and function in a divine manner/capacity. That is where you and I differ. In your view, while God the Son continues to exist unchanged in His divine nature, He can no longer act in a divine capacity beyond (notice I did not say “apart from”) His incarnate existence, while according to Oneness theology He can and does. That is why I see your view more as a transmutation of God into man. He goes from functioning solely as God to functioning solely as man. Even though you maintain that God remains who He is in the incarnation, functionally His deity has had His lights turned off.
I completely agree with Chalcedon.
You said
quote: “I give you credit for recognizing the personal distinctions between the Father and Son that we find in Scripture and the very real relationship we find between Father and Son. However, personal distinctions can only arise as a result of a distinction between persons.”
I never said the distinction was personal. If it was, then it would take a person to make it a personal distinction. That goes without saying. What I am saying is that the distinction is existential, not personal.
You said
quote: “Divine nature does not become human nature, they are mutually exclusive.”
I agree. I never said it did. To confess that it did is to be a Eutychean. God assumed human nature, uniting to Himself without confusion. God was not transmuted into a man. I do not see how you even got the idea that I believe that, not from the quote you were responding to, yet alone from all the stuff you have read of mine. I am so against that concept.
You said
quote: “I also recall some discussions wherein the Son was referred to as God immanent, and the Father referred to as God trascendent. This would also not be Trinitarian Christology. This makes personal distinctions by delineating along the lines of nature.”
Yes, I have spoken about God existing transcendent and immanent, but that is nothing new, for even Trinitarians speak of the same. But to speak like that has nothing to do with Christ’s natures. It has to do with God’s manner of existence. If you have read my paper entitled “Avoiding the Achilles Heel of Trinitarianism, Modalistic Monarchianism, and Nestorianism…” you would see that I specifically destroy the idea that the Father/Son distinction is a distinction between Christ’s two natures. That is a Nestorian idea. The distinction is not a natural distinction (distinction of natures), but an existential distinction (a distinction of existence: as God, as man).
You said
quote: “The One person of the Son did not become distinct from Himself in the incarnation.”
I never said He did. And in Oneness theology the Father does not become distinct from Himself. I have only pointed out that God’s continued manner of existence as God is distinct from His newly acquired existence as man. If I said anything else I would be a Eutychean, confessing that we can no longer make a distinction between God as He is in Himself, and God as He has come to be in the incarnation (and again, this does not imply a changing of God’s person, but a changing of God’s manner of existing).
You quoted me as saying, "Because the distinction is bound up in the incarnation it is not eternal," and then went on to ask
quote: “Are you suggesting that in your view that after the resurrection there is no longer a Father and Son? Does your distinction still exist? (pun intended). And I want to point out again that your "modes of existence" is dependent upon the distinction of natures.”
First, I do not say the Father/Son distinction is between Christ’s natures. Secondly, to answer your question, yes, Christ’s humanity is eternal. The incarnation will never cease. In the context of my statement I was referring to pre-incarnation, not post-incarnation. We are defining “eternal” differently. I am defining it as “without beginning or ending,” so the Son (which I define as God’s human manner of existence) would not qualify. I would say humans are temporal, not eternal, even though we will live forever, because we have a point in time that we began to exist. I believe I had a footnote in that article (maybe it was a different article) which specifically stated that "temporal" should not be confused with "temporary." The former means "in time" whereas the latter implies both a beginning and an ending in time. Again, as it pertains to the divine person who was incarnated, He is eternal because He is God. Only the human manner of existence He acquired is with beginning.
You said
quote: “Seriously though, your different "modes of existence" are actually the difference in the divine and human natures.”
I am not saying the distinction is between the natures. The divine person utilizes the attributes inherent to the human nature to personally exist as man. The Son is not human nature, while the Father is divine nature. That is Nestorianism. The Son is the divine person of God, subsisting in two natures. It is by that that God is able to exist as man.
You quoted me as saying
quote: “You have just stated iniquivocably that the person of the Father exists "exclusively as deity" and "apart" (separate) from the incarnation!”
I went through and edited my papers to replace “apart from” with “beyond” to avoid the idea of separation that the term implied. Apparently I missed this reference here, or did not update that article.
You said
quote: “Your Christology on the other hand divides the one person along the lines of nature, and separates them instead of uniting them.”
Again, if you would have read my Achilles Heel paper you would know that your statement is inaccurate.
You said
quote: “The “person” of the Son expressed Himself in the incarnation through “human nature”, but contrary to what Jason is communicating both explicitly and implicitly, the human nature (human psyche, will, emotions, consciousness) did not determine WHO the person of Jesus was, but rather limited the expression of His person to the limits of human nature.”
No, this is not contrary to what I am saying. I am saying that the person of God expressed Himself through the human consciousness which was inherent to the human nature He assumed. It was not the consciousness of a human person. So in no wise do I have the nature determining the person. I find it so amazing that we are crossing wires so much.
You said
quote: “Your Christology is not the same in principle to Trinitarian Christology any more than Nestorianism is the same in principle. In Trinitarian Christology, there are no personal distinctions that arise out of incarnation, nor is it possible for personal distinctions to arise out of the incarnation.”
And neither is there in my Christology. No personal distinctions arise. I can’t emphasize enough that the distinction is a distinction of manner of existing, not person. The one person came to exist in a new way by uniting human nature to His divine person, actualizing it, and existing through it. There is no new person.
Furthermore, you keep wanting to say that when I speak of a dual manner of existence for one person being the same in principle for Oneness and Trinitarianism that this is false, I would like to know how, when I read it from your Trinitarian buds!!!
You said
quote: “Just as a nature does not pray, neither does “existence.” I exist, but it is not my existence that prays, it is not my nature that prays, it is my person.”
I am not saying that an existence prays. I am saying that God has taken up a human existence, existing through the human attributes inherent to the nature. In such God has truly come to exist as man, know as man, think as man, be conscious of Himself as man, etc. It is through that human existence that God does what He does, not as God, but as man.
The assertion that my Christology is pantheistic is so laughable it does not deserve comment. I hope that after reading this reply you would no longer wish to say that.
Your illustration of (1D) + H is inaccurate in both analogies.
I have already spent hours responding to your post, and do not have time to continue. I have responded to 90% of your post. If there is something you find really important in the last 10% that you need me to respond to I would be happy to do so, but it just seems to be a rehash of stuff you have said before, which I have already addressed.
Ultimately I cannot withdraw my statement that Trinitarian and Oneness incarnational theology is the same in principle because I am referring to the metaphysics of the incarnation, and I know that what I am saying is true, being verified by reading Trinitarian scholars and Fathers on the issue in which it is clear. Functionally after the incarnation, as it pertains to the relationship between the Father and Son, there is a difference, but that is not what I was addressing in my statement, and something I deal with elsewhere.
--Blepo97
Edited by - OrthodoxBerean on 11/06/2002 08:07:45 AM
Edited by - OrthodoxBerean on 11/06/2002 08:09:07 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/6/2002 3:27 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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