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wise seeker
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 11

Posted 12/14/2002 1:12 AM (GMT -6)

MT 4:24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.

MT 8:16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,

To me the hallmark of Christianity is Jesus Christ who was caring. understanding and compassionate and went out freely doing good and healing all those who were oppressed with the devil.

Anybody who came to Jesus was never rebuked but was healed and delivered. But my experience with evangelicals had led me to see that everything they do has to be tied to money or adherence to Pauline doctrines which give them a harsh temperament, a spirit of lovelessness and strife. They seem to always be attacking somebody with words to prove their superiority. They have a rancorous, bombastic style that undermine their objectivity to correct excesses or errors in the charismatic, Pentecostal and Third Wave movements. They ignore the word of God that states:

MT 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Electra
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 12/14/2002 5:15 AM (GMT -6)

My pastor has been preaching a sermon series from Paul’s writings for something like 19 weeks now. He won’t stop talking about 1 Cor. 13. And we don’t want him to. Blessings, Electra

Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8

Edited by - Electra on 12/14/2002 10:30:06 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/14/2002 6:05 AM (GMT -6)

WS, I was going to post this image www.iaw.on.ca/~ppchurch/strawman.gif (reminds me of what you are doing!) But this seems more fitting to your post on this thread, and the posts on the other. direkt.skola.skelleftea.se/mu/cantoimgs/imgs/cymbal.jpg

Speak ONLY of what YOU know. There are many Evangelicals who left family, profession, king and country, opportunity and security in order to serve and further the kingdom.

The REAL miracle is to restore humanity to God's image. You are wrong when you say that Jesus "never rebuked." Read the Bible. But the EVANGELICAL message is John 3:16.

wise seeker
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 11

Posted 12/14/2002 11:59 PM (GMT -6)

How about John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
3:21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/webextra/bfa/index.html
http://www.christiannews.0catch.com/bfa.htm
http://sptimes.com/News2/lyons/default.html
http://www.courttv.com/trials/lyons/061899_ctv.html
http://www.christiannews.0catch.com/lyons.htm
http://www.davidicke.net/religiousfrauds/pentecostal/godfraud.html
http://www.christiannews.0catch.com/strader.htm
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1996/12/04/
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/9te/9te026.html
http://www.maclaurin.org/article_detail.php?a_id=31
http://www.christiannews.0catch.com/bakker.htm
http://www.christiannews.0catch.com/tilton.htm
http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRR_02_07.html
http://www.cephasministry.com/baptists_money_changers.html
http://tampabayonline.net/reports/minister/homealt.htm
http://tampatrib.com/news/greaterministries.htm
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/lewd.html
http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2000/11/21/tilton/print.html
http://www.cephasministry.com/news_evangelical_news.html
http://www.sptimes.com/news/102699/tampabay/edwards_sentenced_to_.shtml
http://sptimes.com/news/080701/tampabay/church_leader_gets_27.shtml

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/15/2002 1:31 AM (GMT -6)

OK, what gives here?!!

WS seems to be doing a flip-flop. (Or is it a "right-left" If so, what's the "upper-cut?) First:

quote:
To me the hallmark of Christianity is Jesus Christ who was caring. understanding and compassionate and went out freely doing good and healing all those who were oppressed with the devil.

and then:

quote:
How about John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation...

On the face it looks to me as though you might be making a flip-flop, WS, saying "How about" as justification for making your own little rant. Which is it? Can you help clarify your position for those kind enough to read what you've written. (Otherwise I'll conclude that you have an ax to grind, that is indiscriminant and encompasses kind people as easily as liars and crooks. And I'll then not return to this thread.)

But when I look at those verses from John 19-21 I see that there is no contradiction. Hell is a prison locked from the INSIDE. The "condemnation" in John 3:19 is not performed by God; it is performed by the one's who "loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." Christ is the LIGHT. God's light. The Son, in God's love "came not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. Man is free to "judge" himself in the form that "everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."

If you were trying to back up some rage against everyone who bears the name Evangelical (Including "John the Evangelist?") then that is EXACTLY the opposite kind of verse that you would want to 'proof-text' with.

If I read you wrong, then please clarify (1) what you mean, and (2) the tone and attitude that you bring to this board.

Thanks.

wise seeker
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 11

Posted 12/15/2002 3:10 AM (GMT -6)

Go and do likewise?

Jesus told the story of a good Samaritan, which is included below. Compare it to the modern version!

A certain Christian went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

"Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side.

"But a certain Evangelical, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he asked him a few questions; "Did he know who the attackers were? Did he forgive them? Did he pray for his attackers? "

Then the evangelical lectured the Christian for a while, quoted a lot of scripture verses, prayed for him and went on his way to find the attackers to pray for them so that they might be saved! For this is what Jesus would want him to do?

Jesus did not bless the aggressor and victimizer of crimes? He cursed them. Woe to you doesn't mean something good is going to happen to you? On the contrary it means something bad is going to happen to you. He told them what would happen to them for being aggressors and victimizers:

Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. "Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:1-3

Aggressors and victimizer were not to be forgiven but rebuked first. And then if they repented they were to be forgiven. But Evangelicals have things backwards, they forgive first and rebuke no one!

Jesus also promised that God would avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him for justice speedily though He bears long with them?

Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, saying: "There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. "Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, 'Get justice for me from my adversary.' "And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, 'Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 'yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.' "

Then the Lord said, "Hear what the unjust judge said. "And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth Luke 18:1-8

All this even though it comes from the mouth of Jesus is something most Evangelicals do not talk about. Nevertheless here is the real story of the good Samaritan:

Then Jesus answered and said: "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. "Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. "Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side.
"But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. "So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. "On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.'

"So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?" And he said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise." Luke 10:30-37

Electra
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 12/15/2002 7:56 AM (GMT -6)

Wise Seeker, in your version of the story of the Good Samaritan parable, the kind of false piety the Evangelical showed toward the wounded Christian was truly tragic. To indict a naked, wounded, and half-dead victim for failing to forgive perpetrators is clearly not what Jesus would want from us. I agree with you that many Evangelicals have been too wrapped up in imposing their own understanding of righteousness on others instead of responding to the world’s wounds with justice and mercy. Electra

Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8

wise seeker
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 11

Posted 12/15/2002 1:37 PM (GMT -6)

It wouldn't be tragic if it wasn't so true. I have phoned different evangelical prayer lines to ask for prayer about what victimizer had done and have been lectured about forgiving the victimizer rather than healing the victim. It reminds of of what Mr. Evangelical, Billy Graham, who is a great respecter of persons, said about Bill Clinton, an enemy of the cross of Christ: "I forgive him . . . because I know the frailty of human nature, and especially a strong, vigorous young man like he is. "He has such a tremendous personality that I think the ladies just go wild over him." In other words it was the fault of the victims not the victimizer?

PHIL 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame-who set their mind on earthly things.

´´Bill Clinton is bad for women. For feminists and post feminists, single women, divorced women, married women, fat women, skinny women and all the others in between.´´ -- Suzanne Fields

´´The defining characteristic of politics in our time is a loss of moral courage. ... [Mr. Clinton] has created a culture of corruption and deceit.´´ --Steve Forbes

William Jefferson Clinton Murderer - Rapist - Traitor
Here is a list of women who publicly acknowledged engaging in sex with Bill Clinton: Gennifer Flowers Monica Lewinsky Elizabeth Ward-Gracen Bobbie Ann Williams Dolly Kyle Browning Sally Perdue

The list of other women who say Bill Clinton tried to engage them in sex includes: Paula Jones Kathleen Willey Connie Hamzy Christine Zercher

Here is the name of Jane Doe #5 - RAPED by Bill Clinton:

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/15/2002 2:09 PM (GMT -6)

I'd like to keep the discussion on tract and not delve into the personal issues of Clinton or Graham or anyone else. Wise Seeker, I would encourage you to broaden your exposure to "evangelicals." I am sorry you have had bad experiences with us/them. I and many others on this board have had similar bad experiences. But there ARE many evangelicals who live the conviction that the central thing is outrageous love. Indeed, I would hope that Christus Victor Ministries stands in solidarity with THIS vision of Christianity (reminder: the views expressed on this discussion board are not necessarily those expoused by CVM!).

Don't let your negative experiences color your perception so that you ONLY see what you interprete to be the hypocritical and negative within evangelicalism. If your heart is for mercy and justice, there are many branches of evangelicalism you would feel at home in.

But you'd have to be willing to extend mercy to folks like Bill Clinton and Ned Graham to feel at home there.

Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

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