Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)

Forum Quick Jump

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/7/2003 10:33 AM (GMT -6)

Empiress,

Would you mention a litugy, or part of a liurgy that you think remarkable.....and then remark upon it?

(My thoughts come from some reading I'm into about the nature of the 'Liturgy of the Catacumines' in the Divine Liturgy of Chrysostom. But don't feel that you have to begin with my thoughts. I want YOURS. But I can mention Cabasilas' observations on the place of _doxology_ in preparing usfor both _petition_ and for _thanksgiving_--necessarily so because to be into-ourselves limits the _trust_ necessary for both petition and thanksgiving )

'Hope something springs to mind!

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 1/7/2003 7:23 PM (GMT -6)

Two of my absolute favorite parts of the liturgy are the Phos Hilaron, sung at Evening Prayer (Vespers), and of course, the Sanctus, sung during the Eucharistic prayer.

The Phos hilaron

O gracious light,
pure brightness of the everliving Father in heaven,
O Jesus Christ, holy and blessed!
Now as we come to the setting of the sun,
and our eyes behold the vesper light,
we sing your praises, O God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
You are worthy at all times to be praised by happy voices,
O Son of God, O Giver of Life,
and to be glorified through all the worlds.

Phos Hilaron means literally, "hilarious light" which I think is a wonderful translation! It is believed to have been written and sung by Saint Athenogenes who died in 305 CE while being burned to death as a martyr. The text is also Jewish in origin....very ancient and beautiful.

In seminary we sang the Phos Hilaron daily just as the sun was setting and the candles were lit. I was always struck by the focus on light, the gracious light of Jesus Christ because although we were watching the light of the sun fade in the sky, the light of Christ shone all the more brightly... for he is the True Light. I am simply haunted by this canticle.

The Sanctus

Holy, holy, holy Lord,
God of power and might,
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.

There is always a shift in the mood of the Eucharistic liturgy that occurs at the Sanctus...a sense of deepening solemnity and holiness. The Sanctus is also very ancient, dating back to at least 230 CE when it was used in the Alexandrian Church. Personally, I cannot refrain from bowing during the first part of the Sanctus, even if I'm serving at the altar and supposed to be pointing to the text for the celebrant, because it is such a profound moment during the liturgy...we are echoing and singing the very praises of the angelic choir, the words that are sung before the very throne of God (Isaiah 6).

Not sure if this is what you had in mind! But that's what came to my mind.

Your turn!

~E

Edited by - Empiress on 01/08/2003 12:24:20 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/8/2003 7:25 PM (GMT -6)

Wow!

Right after "Oh Gladsom Light" (The Phos hilaron) at the OCA church near me (for Vespers) we sing this: "The Lord is King. He reigns in Majesty." (tone six)

For the Phos hilaron I generally look at several icons of Christ, but particularly one above the Royal Doors (that have icons of the froud Evangelists, and a diptych of the Angel on one door and Mary on the other combined in the Annunciation) of "Christ in the land of the Living." This particular icon appears to be on live-wood, in kind of a thre-leave clover defined by the actual contours of the tree it was cross-cut from. Christ, "the Toly Glory of the Everlasting Father."

Singing "The Lord is King. He reigns in Majesty." is a declaration of absolute triumph. "The Lord is King. He has girded us with strength." POWERFUL awareness and celebration of the Lord's constant and enduring presence in his people, his "habitation."

The singing of the Phos hilaron is accompanied by a heightened illumination of the great chandelier, and a blaze of light in the church. These verses continue it.

THEN...

Then comes a dimming of the lighting. A darkening. A notable reminder of the reality of our being IN the world, while not of the world. Ans we say (not sing):

Vouchsafe, O Lord, to keep us this day without sin. Blessed art Thou, 0 Lord, the God of our fathers, and praised and glorified is Thy name forever. Amen.
Let Thy mercy be upon us, O Lord, even as we have set our hope on Thee.
Blessed art Thou, O Lord, teach me Thy statutes.
Blessed art Thou, O Master, make me to understand Thy commandments.
Blessed art Thou, O Holy One; enlighten me with Thy precepts.
Thy mercy, O Lord, endureth forever: O despise not the works of Thy hands.
To Thee belongeth worship, to Thee belongeth praise, to Thee belongeth glory,
to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

And soon after that comes the prayer of St. Simeon:

Lord, now lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace,
According to Thy word, For mine eyes have seen Thy salvation,
Which Thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples:
A light to enlighten the Gentiles,
And to be the glory of Thy people Israel.

................................

In Matins I LOVE the singing of this:

God is the Lord, and has revealed Himself to us. Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord!

That follows the reading of six Psalms. And it is followed by verses proclaiming the Gospel.

I really LOVE how the liturgy make it all "present." "Today Christ is Born"

Glorify Him!

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/8/2003 7:33 PM (GMT -6)

Empiress, here is a wonderful reference:

quote:
NOTE: this link has been divided so that it does not enlarge the page.

www.oca.org/focuseducation/focus/focusstudythemes/seasonofchristmass/
christmasmain/resourcebins/liturgical/the%20services%20of%20christmas-edited%202-13-2002.doc

Edited by - Al2Si2H4O9 on 01/13/2003 07:02:30 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/9/2003 5:28 PM (GMT -6)

Empiress, here is a must: PASCHA!

quote:
NOTE: this link has been divided so that it does not enlarge the page.

http://www.oca.org/focuseducation/FOCUS/FocusStudyThemes/Pascha/
PaschaMain/LiturgicalIntro/SectionArticles/Pascha.pdf

Tell me what you think.

Edited by - Al2Si2H4O9 on 01/13/2003 07:02:31 AM

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 1/11/2003 1:39 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks Al! I really enjoyed reading your personal reflections and the links are quite good resources! I'm not as familiar with Orthodox liturgy as Anglican and Roman Catholic of course, but I find the Orthodox liturgies to be unsurpassed in beauty.

Thanks,
~E

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/11/2003 7:34 AM (GMT -6)

The Orthdox use a liturgy calle the PreSanctified Liturgy. It was written by a Roman Pope. Ever hear of it. Or wha it is and why?

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/12/2003 9:16 AM (GMT -6)

Here is a LINK to the PreSanctified Liturgy of

www.sspeterpaul.org/Presanct.htm

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 1/12/2003 9:25 PM (GMT -6)

I don't know a lot about the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy but my understanding is that the practice behind it is extremely ancient and pre-dates the split between the east and west in the Church. The term "pre-sanctified" refers to the fact that the gifts of bread and wine are not consecrated during the liturgy because they were consecrated at a previous liturgy. The practice of taking elements from the Reserved Sacrament to other churches dates back to the early church when there were not enough Bishops to celebrate Eucharist (Bishops, not priests, originally celebrated Eucharist), so I assume this liturgy is simply an expanded version of that ancient practice.

Interesting stuff!

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/13/2003 1:56 AM (GMT -6)

E: "so I assume this liturgy is simply an expanded version of that ancient practice."

Sounds like a good hunch. In practice the Liturgy of the PreSanctified is used during Lent. The 'tone' of a full liturgy would feel wrong for a Lenten service. So that the use of PreSanctified elements allows communion AND a reserved tone.

One natable part of that liturgy is the prostrations.

quote:
O Lord and Master of my life, the spirit of idleness, of meddling (faintheartedness or despondency in Slavonic), of love of power, and of idle words, grant me not. (PROSTRATION) )

But the spirit of continence, of humility, of patience, and of love, do thou grant unto me thy servant. (PROSTRATION)

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to perceive mine own offenses, and not to judge my brother; for blessed are thou unto ages of ages. Amen. (PROSTRATION)

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 1/18/2003 6:25 AM (GMT -6)

EMPIRESS, H-E-L-P-!

Here's one. The church I attend (Dutch Reformed) only has communion once every month. It had been four times a year (My energies spent helped a bit in getting that changed.) Some of the Elders had expressed that it was too much work to do it more often. And the common line is that frequency would make it "less meaningful" and make it too easy to "take it for granted." (I did the grocery shopping, the breaking and the pouring, and the set up. This is all wierd!) But the first Sunday in February is communion again.

Here's what I want your input on:

I've been asked to play guitar with the praise-band. The planners are thinking about having someone sing a solo of "Remember Me" (by Mark Schulz) during when people are coming up. That makes me GAG! That song's inappropriateness becomes crystal clear when laid side-by-side with the "Cherubic Hymn."

We, the Cherubim mystically representing, and to the life-creating Trinity the thrice-holy hymn with them singing, all life's cares now lay aside ... That the King of all we may receive, by angelic hosts invisibly escorted. Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia.

That is the entry into heaven.

Compare to the Christian-Contemporary hit:

To my sensibilities, joining the "now-inprogress" worship in heaven is THE THING -- together with the Service of the Word. Both have (in Orthdox Tradition--and mimicked in Calvinist) an Epiklesis.

The folksy Christian-Comtemporary song lyrics above (and its melodic tune) has a nostalgic, sentimental tone.

That is quite different from what follows the "Cherubic Hymn":

Mark Schulz's song is voiced as Christ telling us to remember Him in all these areas and all these times of our life. There's nothing wrong with that. But the Communion Litugy asks God to remember us.

Those two are opposites. "There is a time and a place for everything."

I think that even the Reformed Liturgy (www.crcna.org/crrs/crrs_synod_lit_supper94.htm)with its Epiklesis, and its mention (after Calvin's shaping of it) of our ascending to heaven (Calvin's view--opposite in some respects from Orthodox). All these from the CRC:

EMPIRESS, WHAT'S YOUR INPUT?

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 1/19/2003 7:17 PM (GMT -6)

Al,

I have to agree with you that "Remember Me" doesn't really seem like the best communion song and the reasons why have been eloquently recounted by you here on this thread. I think the problem is more one of taste and tone than theology however. I can see how "Remember Me" is in line with the anamnetic portion of the Eucharistic liturgy in which we remember God's work among us and Christ asks us to "do this as often as you eat of it in remembrance of me." But as you mention, there is a slight distinction here.

I think the main think I dislike about the song (besides its sentimentality) is the fact that it takes the focus off of what's going on in the communion when we meet Christ in a holy and sacramental way. But of course, the Dutch Reformed have a different view of communion than I do.

Perhaps you could suggest another song...I think the praise band could really benefit from your theological input on this one!

But here's a bigger question for you: Is it ever difficult for you to reconcile your leanings towards Orthodoxy with the Dutch Reformed theology??

~E

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 10/31/2004 12:03 PM (GMT -6)

E: Is it ever difficult for you to reconcile your leanings towards Orthodoxy with the Dutch Reformed theology??

Al: Teaching a class on Christian iconography in SS next month.

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 1:37 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual