 |
| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Does Regret = Mistake? | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
Jake
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 3/4/2002 6:34 PM (GMT -6) |   |
My friend and I were having a big debate about this the other day and we could not come to any conclusions. Hopefully you guys can help out.
Does having regret mean a mistake has been made? Genesis 6:6 states that God feels regret over His creation. God also later regrets that he made Saul king.
Now if God knew the results of these decisions, how would it be possible for Him to experience regret? If he did not know the result of the decision, does the fact that he did experience regret mean that a better choice could have been made? therefore making some sort of mistake?
any insights are welcome!
Jake
| | Back to Top | | |
 |
Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/4/2002 6:57 PM (GMT -6) | | God regrets, changes His mind, sighs, gets angry, negotiates, learns, etc. The problem isn't in the usage of the terms (regret, for instance), it's in what one means by them.
For instance, to make a mistake in that you have showed yourself fallible is one thing; but to simply have hoped/wished your creation (God's, that is) would be obedient and wasnt, is only to use the word mistake to express such grief.
Does God ever do mathmatical calculations incorrectly? Heavens no. But does He create a world that He had better hope for than what it's given Him? Sure!
Take "learning" for instance. God doesn't learn in the sense of "Well, I'll be. I never knew that. Thanks for sharing that with me. I now know more about...science or math, or history". No, by learning we mean, He moves along with us, and in respect to our free will He sees what we do; He learns as we go. He isn't learning new, previously unknown created information (He made everything, for pete's sake!). This, by the way is part of the argument against evolution: no new information within the DNA, just change of existing information.
I've used this before but it's worth repeating.
Consider a master chess player who thinks his neophyte opponent will make a move with the rook. The opponent doesn't; he moves the bishop. The master chess player isn't the least bit threatened, but he just "learned" something - he says to himself "Well, I would have thought he would have moved the rook. Silly him. Guess I'll win the game now". It makes no difference to him one way or the other what the opponent does; the master can win all the time. Yet, the master learns in this sense of the meaning. He has not learned, however, something new about the game!
Hope that helps.
For the learning of it all,
Starkman
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Jake
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 3/5/2002 10:04 AM (GMT -6) | |
starkman,
thanks for the response. but it just seems that if God feels regret then he didn't pick the right choice to begin with. like the example i noted before with saul. he is regretting his own decision. that seems to me like a mistake has been made.
jake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/6/2002 2:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Jake,
Yes, it is a mistake God made. That word just throws us for a loop, though, doesn't it: mistake!
Remember, having made a mistake, changing one's mind, being angry, etc., has nothing to do with not being perfect. To have made a mistake (in God's case) ISN'T to have errored in the computer sense of the word or in the information, power and knowing sense of the word. It simply means God had hoped for one thing but human free will thought otherwise.
For instance, if you hope your child will confess that he/she stole something (when you know he/she did), and doesn't, have YOU made a mistake, because you had hoped and thought confession would come? No, you haven't.
If you were playing chess and made a move that was a wrong move, because you didn't have the mental power, knowing, education, etc., to see that you should have moved a different piece, have you made a mistake? Yes! See the difference?
It's tough for Christians to use that word "mistake" in talking about God. It's just as tough, if not tougher, to use the phrase "God doesn't know everything" or "God can't do everything". But think about it:
Can God make Himself not exist to never come back to being God again? Heavens no. So, if we're going to use the phrase "God can do anything", we'd better understand the silliness of making "anything...anything!
Same applies to God knows everything (at least for an open theist). There's no future to know except that future which God determines.
Suppose Jesus appears to you and says "I know what you're going to do in the next 30 seconds; you're going to scratch your head with your right hand". You scratch your leg with your left hand! Jesus could say, "I knew you were going to do that". You could then say to Jesus, "Well, why didn't you tell me that then?". And that's the catch! When is it that the future of your free will actions is finally decided so that it's determined and therefore no longer dynamic but unchangable? The answer is that there is no specific time (and you don't have to have Jesus appear to you to live it out). To believe that God knows everthing about the future - EVERYTHING - is to ask God to know what's not even there yet to know (except that which He has determined). To do so is to put the same demand on God that He be able to make Himself cease to exist; that He be able to make 2+2 18.450 to the sixth power! Not possible.
Hope that helps,
Starkman
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Jake
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 3/6/2002 2:46 PM (GMT -6) | |
Starkman,
you can make a mistake and still be perfect? i'm sorry but i'm still confused about that. like you said it's hard for me to use the word mistake in talking about God. how many mistakes does God make? it just seems difficult to put all my trust into a God who screws up sometimes. maybe i'm reading this wrong!
Jake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/7/2002 2:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Jake,
Yes, God can make a mistake and be perfect...IF you understand what we mean when we used the word perfect here.
In that God does not know the future of every body, everything, every thought to be thought, act to be acted, etc., does not mean God is not perfect. And it certainly does not mean He's not all knowing! Here's why...
God knows everything! He knows, however, "everthing" in the context of that which is to be known or can be known. Think about that. It's key here.
That I have not yet done what I'm going to do in 30 minutes (and that future being yet unknown because it is not yet) is not to say that God isn't all knowing, it's only to say that there's nothing there to know....nothing! Go back and read my previous post regarding Jesus appearing to you and saying He knows what you're going to do.
I bring this up (all-knowing) because it's the same issue as God making a mistake; God is not lacking anything or is not all-knowing merely because He doesn't know what I'm going to think in 22.456 years. That doesn't make Him lack omniscience.
In the same way, that God hopes I will be obedient with a task He gives me, or hopes I will not commit this or that sin when I'm presented with the opportunity is not to say He's not perfect if I am disobedient after all or do sin. Hoping and being disapointed (as God often is) is not to make Him imperfect. It's to make Him real!
One simply can't assign imperfection to God merely because He expects something to go a certain way (like us to do as He says to do) and then become hurt and disapointed enough for Him to say something like "I regret having made man. All he can ever do is evil" as He did in Genesis 6. That's not imperfection, that's pain!
Keep thinking it through, Jake. And as you do, try to allow your thinking of God to be more reasonable in regard to our being made in His image. To be made in His image is to include hurt, pain, joy, expectations, etc.
For the excitement of it all!
Starkman
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Jake
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 3/8/2002 9:37 AM (GMT -6) | | starkman,
don't you think God knows us well enough that he knows what we will pick in each situation? how could he put us in a situation in which he knows we will choose wrong? even if he knows the future only as possiblities, he knows probabilties too right? so if we are encountered with a situation do we ever really choose differently than God expects? if we do then it seems he doesn't know us that well.
Jake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/8/2002 12:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey there, Jake,
don't you think God knows us well enough that he knows what we will pick in each situation?
To a certain extent. But freewill always leaves the options opened. Yes, most of the time, I suppose, God - being able to read the heart and mind - can see in which direction our choice will be; however, that doesn't mean that everytime we are to make decisions such is the case. A man can change his heart very quickly.
God knows all possibilities, but that doesn't make Him less grieved when we choose badly then it does for a parent when their children do the same thing; they know the possibilities (no, not all, of course, but enough), and when a child goes the wrong direction, it grieves the parents, though the parent knew all along such choice was possible.
how could he put us in a situation in which he knows we will choose wrong?
It isn't God necessarily who's put anyone anywhere! Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Either way it is not God to be faulted because I choose wrong. Again, a parent may present an either/or choice to a child. What the child chooses is not to be held against the parent. Consider the evil that we can choose daily to do: it is possible everywhere to do evil. That's not God putting anyone anywhere. It's just part of life. One doesn't have to search to far to find an opportunity to choose evil!
even if he knows the future only as possiblities, he knows probabilties too right?
Yes.
so if we are encountered with a situation do we ever really choose differently than God expects?
God wouldn't ask you to choose good if it weren't possible for you to choose evil. And obviously we do choose against His desires.
if we do then it seems he doesn't know us that well.
When one is given libertarian free will, it isn't a question of not knowing the person, it is a question of relationship! God already knows us well, more than well enough. What He doesn't know all the time is what we must feel inside our hearts as we struggle over choice. He waits to see what we will do. Again, sometimes the choice must be easy for God to see where we're going. Other times it isn't. We shouldn't think that just because God can read the heart and mind that that assumes He thus knows the future of its thoughts and decisions.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 3/10/2002 2:58 PM (GMT -6) | | I'd agree with Starkman thus far, except I don't think it most accurate or helpful to speak of God making mistakes or in any sense learning (though I agree with the concepts Starkman is communicating with these words). These terms tend to presuppose the exhaustively definite view of the future, and then measure the accuracy or perfection of God's decisions and knowledge against it. If we rather hold that the future is partly indefinite and that creatures are free in a libertarian sense, then an omniscient being can't be said to be mistaken for regreting making decisions that didn't turn out right; for "betting" on probabilities where the improbable actually occured; or for not knowing with certainty what agents will decide in the future.
The other way of speaking seems to feed into the very positions (and objections) the open view is at odds with.
Blessings
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
|
Jake
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 3/14/2002 5:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Starkman
even if he knows the future only as possiblities, he knows probabilties too right?
Yes.
so if we are encountered with a situation do we ever really choose differently than God expects?
God wouldn't ask you to choose good if it weren't possible for you to choose evil. And obviously we do choose against His desires.
hold on a sec here, right we do choose against his desires, but does he really expect us to choose good everytime. is he surprised when we choose evil over good? he shouldn't be if he knows us. God had to expect that Adam and eve would sin when he created them. it seems God would be almost naive if he didn't realize the probability would be pretty high.
here's another question: if i make a decision that is right at the time but proves to be wrong later, is that my fault? if i was in God's will at the time in making my decision, but later it turns out to be false, can i confidently make any decision?
Jake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Orpheus42
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 3/14/2002 7:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Does there have to be surprise for there to be regret?
Peace, Love, and Jesus Christ,
Jason
God loves us exactly the way we are, but He loves us far too much to leave us that way. --- Leighton Ford | | Back to Top | | |
|
Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/14/2002 9:37 AM (GMT -6) | | heya Jake,
You mentioned: hold on a sec here, right we do choose against his desires, but does he really expect us to choose good everytime. is he surprised when we choose evil over good? he shouldn't be if he knows us. God had to expect that Adam and eve would sin when he created them. it seems God would be almost naive if he didn't realize the probability would be pretty high.
First, you hit it on the head when you say that God would have to be naive if He didn't realize the probability would be pretty high. THAT'S THE POINT! He doesn't have to KNOW the future - "I can see into the future and see that on January 14, at 2:34pm, Eve will walk 23 steps north/northeast, turn approximately 30 degrees left, walk up to the bush near the tree first...". You can see that this isn't required. God knows the probability. A parent knows the probability that one's child will lie. But isn't that parent still saddened when it happens? Of course one is...they are...he/she...oh, pick your pronouns in this strange non-genered age we live in!
Second, God does expect us to to good and does know us. But what do you mean by "know" us? Do you mean He knows everything we will ever think, say, do, be, etc.? Or do you mean, He knows our hearts and heads. He knows that we're sinners. BUT He wants us to do good inspite of it, and when we do, He's pleased. When we don't He's not pleased. See, the Bible talks about God being pleased as much as it does Him being grieved; how can God be pleased if, by your question "Doesn't He know us?" if He, in fact, knows us? He's pleased because this isn't a robotic relationship - we don't do everyhing predestined. He's pleased because He watches and sees what we will do, both good and bad. And He reacts accordingly. It's a very real relationship just like a parent and a child.
Now, you went on and said: here's another question: if i make a decision that is right at the time but proves to be wrong later, is that my fault? if i was in God's will at the time in making my decision, but later it turns out to be false, can i confidently make any decision?
Remember: God ALWAYS looks on the heart. If you made a decision thinking it was right but it goes sour or wasn't right, well, think again of the parent/child relationship: if you knew your child honestly tried to do what was right but as it were it turned out to be the wrong choice, can the child EVER make a confident decision? Why, certainly. We're not asked to be God (infinitely perfect), and we're not asked to not make mistakes. We're asked to get up and try again. Remember God's words to Cain after He brought an incorrect sacrifice to his and Able's alter: "...why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it". See, we're entrusted to be believed to be able to do right.
Well, gotta go...
For the choice,
Starkman
| | Back to Top | | |
|
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 3/15/2002 5:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Suppose a top executive needs an accountant to oversee their most important account. She has two accounts to choose from, one with an IQ of 69 and a poor track record, the other with an IQ of 169 and a stellar track record. Which is the wise choice?
If shes working for Enron, neither.
But if its a normal business, obviously the wise choice is the bright accountant with a stellar record.
She puts him in charge, and he later decides to try Ecstasy, gets addicted, parties endlessly, while the stock drops and he doesn't notice. The account is ruined.
The top executive regrets her choice. But was it not the best one AT THE TIME?
God is working with free agents, and he only has a non-ideal pool to pull from. He makes the best choices... but can later regret them, not because HE screwed up, but because THEY did.
Orpheus: Does there have to be surprise for there to be regret?
Doc: There doesn't have to be unanticipated shock, but if things turn out exactly as you knew they would, how can you regret anything? If God foreknew humanity would turn out exactly as they did prior to the flood, how could he "regret" making them (to the point of destroying them to start over)? If God foreknew Saul would blow it as bad as he did, how could he regret making him King? (and even express his intention to bless him and his descendents, I Sam. 13)?
Blessings
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
|
Jake
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 3/15/2002 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | |
ok let's take a different angle on this. (speaking of a personal example) ok my dad marries a woman whom he believes is the right choice. after a few short years she cheats on him. they divorce and my dad decides to remarry. with this remarriage, i am born as well as my brother and sister.
now this brings up a few questions.
1) if my dad's first wife was the best one, where does that leave my mom? is she just second best after the first one screwed up?
2) if they hadn't divorced that leaves me and my siblings nowhere. but since she did screw up and i am here, i feel like i am just the direct result of someone's sin?
3) does God not know then the future existence of certain people's lives? did he know before i was born that i would in fact be born?? (my contention is to say no, but that is very unsettling!)
Starman and Doc thanks for your input. i've found it very helpful.
anybody else feel free to chime in!!!!
Jake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Orpheus42
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 21
| Posted 3/16/2002 5:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc- exactly my point. 
Peace, Love, and Jesus Christ,
Jason
God loves us exactly the way we are, but He loves us far too much to leave us that way. --- Leighton Ford | | Back to Top | | |
|
Jake
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 3/19/2002 12:57 PM (GMT -6) | |
starkman??? doc???
can anybody help me answer the questions from my previous post? i'm really confused about this situation and any input would be helpful!!
jake
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/19/2002 6:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey there, Jake.
Well, it's late and I just got done printing some things out, thought I'd jump over here and see what's up. I'll do my best here!
You stated: "1) if my dad's first wife was the best one, where does that leave my mom? is she just second best after the first one screwed up?"
Who said you dad's first wife was the best? Your dad thought so, but that doesn't mean she was. And man, I can feel for his mistake - been there and did that, too. So, I can relate well.
Next: "2) if they hadn't divorced that leaves me and my siblings nowhere. but since she did screw up and i am here, i feel like i am just the direct result of someone's sin?
We are ALL conceived in sin in that we're all a part of the human race (Psalms 51). Whether your father sinned in divorcing or not is irrelevant; you are the offspring between him and your mother. What would have happened otherwise is neither here nor there, and you should neither worry nor be concerned. What children would have been born were your father to have had children with his first wife is something that's neither held against you or God.
And finally: "3) does God not know then the future existence of certain people's lives? did he know before i was born that i would in fact be born?? (my contention is to say no, but that is very unsettling!)"
In that God could have known (or did know) all those whom he'd ever create-all the possibilities of people to be-I don't know. However, that God knew Jeremiah (ch 1) before he was born is only to say that God must have known what He was going to create at that time when Jeremiah was conceived. In otherwords, God already decided that that child his (Jeremiah's) mother was bare was to be used by God for His purposes.
One more thing...
About your concerns of being "nowhere" if your father were to never have married your mother. Consider a couple that decide to have children but can't. What children are not able to be born then? Or consider the person who marries and that person's spouse dies before children are born. The widow(er) then remarries and has children.
Either way, the children that are born are unique to that particular union of the mother and father. Previous sins committed by either spouse are irrevelant. Yes, it can disturb the emotions of a person (parents and children), but it never has to disturb their existance. Even a child from rape is unique, and can know that God's knowledge of him/her is equal to that of an appropriate outcome of children.
Well, it be late now, and I be tired!
For the children,
Starkman
| | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 2:05 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|