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sboese
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| Posted 8/2/2002 6:02 AM (GMT -6) |   | I was wondering what is Greg's view on this? Obviously a warfare worldview would seem to encourage a non-cessasionism. Yet, what about a subsequent infilling and evidences of that? And how does that mesh with the open view of God?
Curious
Shelby Boese
Edited by - sboese on 08/02/2002 3:03:27 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/3/2002 1:38 PM (GMT -6) | | Here's my two cents' worth...
I think it's pretty well recognized now that there's a lot about a Charismatic/Pentecostal approach to life and ministry in general that fits well with the open view. However, we've had several discussions around here that I can remember where pro and con views of cessationism were voiced by open theists. So, both are found. Among those who do affirm the charismata, I don't see anything in the open view that would encourage the distinctive doctrine of initial evidence maintained by classic Pentecostals. That's not to say I agree or disagree with the doctrine. It's just to say that the open view in itself doesn't incline one in any particular direction on this specific question.
Tom 
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 8/4/2002 8:02 AM (GMT -6) | | From www.opentheism.org
www.opentheism.org/most_moved_mover.htm
Note from the Web Master: Open Theism is not a Pentecostal theology, though Dr. Clark Pinnock, who is a Pentecostal, is often thought of as fathering the movement (I imagine history will record it as such.) In fact, Open Theism is quite cross denominational. Yet, it seems worthy to note that Openness is being received well in Pentecostal circles. One can only assume that the allure of a personal God, a real God of relational give and take are irresistibly attractive to a movement already steeped in such a metaphysic. Or, one might suggest that the movement, having been fired by the passionate flame of Pentecostal experience was picked up by other kinds of thinkers who saw the solid value it offered to all Christians. ~ Joseph S. Holt
Brandon
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 8/4/2002 3:17 PM (GMT -6) | | I believe strongly that the "gifts of the Spirit" (I Cor. 12) are for today. But I don't find the arguments that tongues is "initial physical evidence" for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit at all compelling. I also don't find this view fits experience, for it seems evident to me that many who speak in tongues are not more "on fire," or more "annointed," or more "mature," or more "filled with Spirit," or more ANYTHING than some who DON'T speak in tongues. Plus I think there are some strong biblical arguments against this perspective.
Having said all this, I agree with TGB that there is no apparent intrinsic connection between the open view and any view one might hold on the charismata in general, or the "initial evidence" doctrine in particular.
In his love,
Doc
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sboese
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| Posted 8/5/2002 3:29 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/5/2002 3:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
so does that make a neo-pentecostal? :)
It doesn't even make Neo (Matrix) a Pentecostal!
Shelby, I wanna ask you a question. You've presumably embraced the open view. How have your colleagues reacted? Your pastor and the others on staff with you? District officials? Any reactions whatsoever?
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde
Edited by - TGB on 08/05/2002 08:39:38 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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sboese
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| Posted 8/5/2002 3:47 AM (GMT -6) | |
I would imagine you would find many AG people who would agree that the baptism in the Holy Spirit does not make one anymore "spiritual, on-fire, etc." In fact often I hear it said from AG pulpits that the baptism in the HS is primarily power for witness, and it does not make the person any more anything. Rather it is about enablement and entering into a dynamic supernatural relationship for a purpose of sharing Christ. The HS baptism is understood as a gift, a thing that is enabled by and through God's grace and is relational on that basis.
Once again, it doesn’t make a person more spiritual; it does require surrender and if anything, causes heightened awareness of God's love, Holy Trinity and desire to expand that love. Spiritual pride is the antithesis of this on-going experience.
In addition, AG Pentecostals would say that initial physical evidence is that and no more or less. It is a primary first evidence and there are other evidences also that may accompany this. Physical, simply meaning speaking in tongues requires the physical person, as well as the mental /spiritual. I think many non-Pentecostals misunderstand and overstate the meaning and purpose of initial spirit baptism (could this be because of the undue attention placed on the very small oneness camp? Who I find troubling because how can you believe in Pentecostal experience without the dance of the Trinity and divine love in action emanating out of the Trinity?!)
The teaching about the Baptism in the HS is varied w/i Pentecostalism. All do believe that there is a further, usually subsequent to salvation experience with the Spirit that we are to seek and be open to. Whether speaking in tongues is the only evidence, well most would say it is one universal experience, but not the only one--nor should it be. The gifts of the spirit to be sought are those needed in the situation to point people to Christ. The gifts are God's manifestation of love in a demonstrative, exuberant, ecstatic way!
(I am preaching? Sorry)
In the Name of the ALL HOLY TRINITY
hehe
shelb
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sboese
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| Posted 8/5/2002 4:02 AM (GMT -6) | | TGB
my pastor is fairly "open-view" in his teaching and preaching. Of course the biggest issue, and he is open to discuss it, is exhaustive foreknowledge. He struggles with that, and finds it limiting, etc. (all the normal face level objections.) I keep challenging (read: positive illustrations, etc.) him to rather think of traditional or conventional theism as actually limiting God and the text of Scripture. But it's amazing how entrenched the conventional view of God's knowledge is. You know if you've been spouting God's all-knowingness for years, de-programming takes awhile.
He is particularly convinced of the open view when it comes to evil and relational aspects (as I find most Pentecostals are).
Once again the problem is so many Pentecostal theologians are trying to marry Calvinistic theology to Pentecostal praxis. I image because most of them have been educated in reformed leaning seminaries and have not been given the tools to appropriately speak of and defend Pentecostal praxis. ( I believe all Pentecostal theologians should be educated in Eastern Orthodox Seminaries :) at least there is similarity and tools of thought regarding the work and person of the Spirit in relationship to freedom and the Trinity!)
Pentecostals I am around tend to be ambivalent about it. They are easily convinced it is wrong and yet live it out everyday! Some are very open to it, and some like me fully embrace it. When I first read the Openness of God in 96 I was unaware of others who held this view. In fact, I would say when reading it, I had a supernatural (here my Pentecostal ness comes out :) ) Experience, a divine illumination of what God's love really means and the foundation importance of it.
On our staff everyone knows I support promote and use the open model of God in my teaching and preaching. I have actually preached several messages on the God who repents. Fun fun. And when we talk about whom God is, the open model is used.
Again, I have not talked with our district supt. about it, but I will have to bring up to him sometime. He is a bit of an intellectual, so I imagine he has considered.
In my church I am the young adult and cell groups pastor--so I infect and influence quite a few people. And am always promoting it.
I still run into more Calvinistic Pentecostals in Chi Alpha nationwide, than I do openness people, but hopefully that will change!
Shelby
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Tom
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| Posted 8/5/2002 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the info. Very very interesting. I've talked with some ministers (A/G) who don't have a problem with the open view, while others very close to me promise to resign their credentials the day the A/G decides to tolerate openness among its ministers.
Forgive me for prying Bro, but have you had any personal encounters over the issue with A/G ministers outside your church? Do you know of any other A/G ministers who've embraces it?
If I need to pursue this any more with ya I'll write you offline.
Blessings,
Tom
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sboese
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| Posted 8/5/2002 6:57 AM (GMT -6) | | I think it's a bit extreme for people to say they will resign over tolerance of the open view! We need to get back to being a fellowship not a dogmatic denomination. That's a really disgusting attitude!
I think that there is more than enough room for open theism in the AG. Since most AG people live it out anyway.
Let's get a resolution going for General Council :)
My main disappointment in the Enrichment article is that it really missed the point that the Open View stands on and works with the Biblical data much better than conventional theism. That is what I think needs to be "hammered on" for AG people to accept--and the data regarding the role and work of the HS. Relational theism IS open view theism.
Why do your colleagues react to that? Do they reject a dynamic God as well? Of course I'm sure you've hashed this out with them. But that attitude is EXACTLY what Clark Pinnock in his new defense (more lay than academic) of the open viewpoints to as damaging Christian witness and the overall lack of the Fruit of the Spirit in the opponents (not all obviously) of the open view. I recommend giving it to those that are so virulent against the OV.
Are you a missionary or what's your connection with the AG etc.?
S
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Tom
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| Posted 8/5/2002 9:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Are you a missionary or what's your connection with the AG etc.?
Missionary.
Tom
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 8/5/2002 10:42 AM (GMT -6) | | GOD BLESS ALL A/Gers!!!! Amen and Amen.
Did you know I used to be one? I held credentials in the eastern district for about 5 years, even though 4 of those years I assisted in a non-A/G church, and have only been in the A/G church in my life. I found that the east coast was much less dogmatic about things than the midwest. Shortest interview in my life was at North Central Bible College. I applied for a job and the first two questions were "what's my view of the intial physical evidence" and "what is my eschatology."
I flunked both.
But I've always tagged myself a Pentecostal at heart.
I bless both of you as you remain in the fellowship and are, we pray, used by God to build bridges.
In him
Greg
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shell
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| Posted 8/5/2002 5:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi all...just decided to drop in since I was an A/G girl through and through for 30 years(I'm 32 now)I even attended North Central Bible College! I didn't last there long though after I had to kneel on the ground and my RA measured where my skirt landed above my knees...and then there was the prof who called me out by name in front of 300 students because I left class early to go use the restroom...I'm not bitter though . I'm still a pentecostal at heart too Doc.
My own personal experience with my former A/G pastor is that he is not open to the the Open View at all. I have several friends that are A/G ministers and all of them with the exception of one are very opposed to the thinking. The one that is really exploring it(he's reading God Of The Possible) is really excited about it.
I have nothing theological to add here...just humor(hopefully anyway, coming from someone who does believe speaking in tongues is for today and do myself, although I look at it a lot differently than I was raised to believe)I just had to laugh a little about the talk about the initial physical evidence being speaking in tongues. This was very a huge issue especially at the summer A/G camps I attended. Every day or evening after service there was an altar call for the infilling of the Holy Spirit which mean't you went forward for prayer to speak in tongues. In recent years I have had a number of humorous conversations with my A/G friends about their experiences at camp and at their own churches. One of my good friends is a pastor's son who was being prayed for to receive tongues at the altar of his dad's church when he was a teenager. One of the ladies had really bad breath and she kept getting closer and closer to watch his mouth to see if he was doing it. He was 13 yrs old and dying over this woman's bad breath so he started mouthing nonsensical words that came to him just to get her to go away. The whole front of the church erupted because the PASTOR'S SON had just been baptised in the Holy Spirit. He wanted to go forward for prayer as he got a little older but never did because the whole church witnessed his "infilling", so he never went forward for prayer about it again!
The moral of the story: use breath mints when you pray for people or you could mess them up for life!
Shell
p.s. Shelby...your name sounds familiar did you attend NCBC?
Edited by - shell on 08/05/2002 10:44:57 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/5/2002 9:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
GOD BLESS ALL A/Gers!!!! Amen and Amen.
Did you know I used to be one? I held credentials in the eastern district for about 5 years...
I'm speechless.
Tom
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sboese
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| Posted 8/6/2002 4:12 AM (GMT -6) | | That's an interesting bit of history doc.
If I were the doctrinal guru of the ag I would reduce the statement of "16 fundamental truths" down to the "4 basic worldviews of Pentecostalism."
1-- Orthodox Christian. Followed by the text of the Nicene Creed approved at Chelcedon in 451.
2-- Warfare is at Hand. We are called to wage battle in all realms in all Christ-like ways against evil in all it's manifestation through spiritual beings, including the human heart.
this means: we are evangelical, we share the love of God and are driven by it via the empowering of His Holy Spirit.
this means: we believe in supernatural "power encounter" with the spiritual forces of darkness. Including divine healing, speaking in other tongues (golossolalia and maybe even xenolalalia), deliverance prayer, and culturally accepted psychatry, psychology and various other human medical endevors.
this means: we believe in true free will choices of created beings.
3--We are pragmatic and this is our strength and weakness.
this means: styles and attitudes can and should change if not we are dead. God's character and nature do not change, but He is relational in working with us--therefore we should value love relationship and holiness in how we "do church" and reach our world above all. Relationship requires flexibility. We must be faithful to the Gospel and the relational model of God manifested so clearly in Christ.
4-- We are not a denomination, we are an international movement, a fellowship. Let us not be denominational in mentality. That mentality equals death. The early pentecostal founders were on to something here--and most of the growing churches in America have embraced this concept 100 years later. Why are we ignoring it?!
this means: our tolerance for various ideas of Christianity should be large. The use of various interpretations expansive.
this means: we draw the "wagons" around the issue of the divity ,historical, and spiritual person of Jesus Christ. Here is where we determine who is in leadership and who is not (see Nicene creed).
----
what do you think? THe ag is actually in the process of reviewing all of our "position papers" right now. Call your district officials, get involved!!
yeah I'm a little crazy today, just picked up our young adult missions team from the airport in Omaha last night, not enough sleep!
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sboese
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| Posted 8/6/2002 4:24 AM (GMT -6) | | ps--sorry my spelling is terrible.
SHell-- yes I went to NCU as it is now called for a year and half. Got in trouble. But you will be happy to know that the dress code you encountered is long gone. They are pretty much like any christian liberal arts college in approach to dress now.
I backslid in "bible college" and had to go to a state university and study philosophy to "get saved" again. I believe that it was foundational for me to gain understanding regarding the intellectual straight jackets many AG leaders have and how many professors in the AG need some theological training outside of reformed seminaries.
--
regarding baptism in the HS. I am not ready to ditch Intial Physical Evidence, and the best approach to it that I have seen was at our North Central Region chi alpha "SALT" conference. In which several academic and spiritual leaders talked about it in a "side bar" manner through out the conference. They all said it is a personal experience, and may not happen in this time together, may happen in a personal time of worship, when you wrapped up into the love of God.
This is indeed when it happened to me. I had gone to church camps for several summers desiring it. Going to prayer lines getting screamed at, spit on, "just speak it out" "dont say anything" etc. etc. And never recieved anything (cept fear maybe :) ).
But in a time personal devotion, worship and meditation I was overwhelmed by the Presence of the Spirit and had my western mind on the side enough to let the experience of worshipping Christ open me recieving this baptism. I believe it is available to all. Although It is particullarly difficult for the western mind (still very modernistic) to deal with this concept.
Around the world though, millions and millions have had this subsequent expereince with varrious settings and situations.
....
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 8/6/2002 5:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Greg. Wanted to get clear on this. When you said:
quote:
Having said all this, I agree with TGB that there is no apparent intrinsic connection between the open view and any view one might hold on the charismata in general, or the "initial evidence" doctrine in particular.
When you say, "in general" you are talking specifically about gifts/giftings correct?
I put the quote up from the OT site because I thought it was true according to relational tendencies or aspects or experiences of Pentecostalism. So while I agree with you that there is no "apparent intrinsic connection" to "charismata in general" or actually "specifically", would it not be safe to say that because of the intrinsic relational nature of OT and the intrinsic relational or experiential nature of Pentecostalism, that that is where the connection would be? Just getting some clarity. I ask this, because Shell mentioned that a former pastor was not open to OT. But that is not a reflection on Pentecostalism per se, but on a particular view being, as was said, "entrenched" in evangelical thinking as well the particular personal dynamics of that person.
Shell
Went to North Central did cha? What year? My wife went there. I believe it was '89-'90. She is 'boot your age. Actually, one year older. I met her there. I love the Minneapolis/St. Paul area. Beautiful there (Yeah, I know I have said that a million times before, but y'all gonna hear it a million more times). I loved your story. It was nice to see you make light of your experience in hindsight. Christ for the Nations is that way as well. Ugh...
I attend an Alliance church at present. Have for the past 4-5 years. The people there are awesome. They come and surround you and support you when times are tough. And some of them, I have personality and power struggles with! Ain't that cool? They rock! But like you and Greg, I am thoroughly Pentecostal. Was brought up PAOC/AG even though I now attend an Alliance Church. Which, by the way, A.B. Simpsom (the founder) was not a cessationist.
Greg, glad you said what you said because the first crowd I thought of was "Oneness." Amen to dat!
Lastly, I would have to agree with Fee. I think the Pentecostals want so much to experience God that they got their theology behind their experience and developed their theology based on that (experience).
Can you wrong them?
In a time when the church is so dry and sapped of enthusiasm for the things of God and God himself? Herself. Whatever. You know what I mean. I says, "Drink my brother! Drink my sister! Drink! Aha, ha, ha, ha..."
Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War
Edited by - BBBCanada on 08/06/2002 10:12:04 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/6/2002 5:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Brandon! I think I'm gonna take off in tongues here in just a second or two! Wheeeeeee! Kata baka shandala...
Tom
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shell
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| Posted 8/6/2002 6:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon,
I was at North Central for one semester in '88 and then moved on to Bethel College.
Shelby,
I really appreciate your approach and your attitude about differences. Your church is blessed to have you. You have a gentle spirit. I agree that speaking in tongues does not have to be "prayed into" people at the altar. My dad is a very reserved guy and despite growing up A/G did not pursue speaking in tongues. He spoke in tongues for the first time at the age of 47 while driving his truck down the road. The Spirit just fell on him as he was praying during this quiet time. He was shocked by the whole experience(and blessed)
Blessings,
Shell
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 8/6/2002 7:12 AM (GMT -6) | | And don't forget your HYUNDI's! 
I swear Tom's got Mad Cow disease.
Brandon
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 8/6/2002 7:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Brandon,
I was at North Central for one semester in '88 and then moved on to Bethel College.
Does the name "Becky Stuckless" ring a bell. She did sign language for some of the Christian artists that came to the school. One was a rapper and she barely kept up. But kept up she did.
Also, does the name "Paul Scibetta" ring a bell as well. He did a lot of concerts in the AG. Ring a bell? Eh?
Brandon
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sboese
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| Posted 8/6/2002 7:43 AM (GMT -6) | | "she gotta honda hyundi gotta she"
Pentecostals need to always be able to laugh at themselves and in that humor find the most profound, creative love of the very Spirit of God.
I suppose I will need to post some deeper reflections on this site at some point...
hehe
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shell
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| Posted 8/6/2002 8:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Does the name "Becky Stuckless" ring a bell. She did sign language for some of the Christian artists that came to the school. One was a rapper and she barely kept up. But kept up she did.
Also, does the name "Paul Scibetta" ring a bell as well. He did a lot of concerts in the AG. Ring a bell? Eh?
Actually neither of them sound familiar...where was I? Probably gazing deeply into some guy's eyes in the park across the street from NCU, missing the concerts and the curfew deadline-hey I was young! ha!
Edited by - shell on 08/06/2002 1:31:48 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/6/2002 9:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon-
My wife and I both know Paul. He went to CBC with us. Long hair, big nose. Right? Well, maybe he cut his hair. But the nose is still the same, eh?
Tom
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BBBCanada
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| Posted 8/6/2002 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Shell,
Can't say I blame you for moving to Bethel, under the circumstances. Now about that park across from NCU...was that guy me?
Tommaaaay, Tommaaaay, Tommaaaay....I knew you'd come through.
That's him. Looks like Weird Al Yankovich? Yeah that's him. Though he doesn't look like that anymore. Cut off all his hair. Still got the big nose though. He lives here in Canada. Up near Hamilton. Had an internet radio show. Did some small t.v. Anyway, he's moving to Brazil this month! He's known my wife since she was a kid, when he had his band back in the day. Use to play with "The Katinas" as well. Slept at my house couple of years ago. Loves my kids. He's a real good guy. Hey if you want his e-mail address, I can give it to ya.
Brandon
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