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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/26/2002 3:35 AM (GMT -6)

This Christmas one of my best friends got me an anti-openness book in a continued effort to rescue me.

The one sad note this season came while sitting alone in front of the fire place very late just last night. As I looked over this past year and considered my public embracing of the open view, it dawned on me that this same friend who gave me the book (and who was indeed a very close friend) and I have watched our friendship pretty much dissolve. The same deal with regard to the national church here in my host country. “Stink,” I thought, “I’ve put a lot into this place only to be conveniently passed over because of something I believe. That hurts.”

I tell ya, I’ve considered loading my library up in the van and driving it all down to the Mediterranean and tossing the whole caboodle in one book at a time. I can’t live half of what I already know. Same is true for most of us. Why not just keep it simple and move on to loving people? I don’t get it.

Take the Incarnation thread. Really now, how much precision is required to be “orthodox”? Shouldn’t there be a difference between the “confession” we all agree on (Jesus is the God-man, fully God and fully human) and our “systematic” attempts to explicate HOW God could do such a thing? Must orthodoxy prescribe one model (e.g., “two-natures”) against another (any of the kenotic models, or Ron Leigh’s one-nature model)? The Bible doesn’t SAY Jesus had two natures. Doesn’t say he had one nature. Doesn’t seem the authors were that concerned about pressing things beyond the confession: “Jesus is Lord.” Jesus is Emmanuel! Belief in THIS confession makes one orthodox. Must we insist on this ‘model’ against that ‘model’? It wears me out.

Next time somebody asks me, “Which model of the Incarnation do you hold to?” I’m replying, “There are several plausible models that work. Who cares beyond that?” What’s the point in knowing which of the plausible models is THE right one? Knowing THE right one wouldn’t give me any more life than I get from just knowing THAT Jesus is God come to us. It’s the Confession that reflects the feast, not the Systematics.

Next time somebody asks me, “What’s your view on Inerrancy?” I’m replying, “I trust the book is authoritative and reliable because the person is talks about changed my life. I move FROM my encounter of the living Christ TO trusting THIS particular form of the story.” Guess that’s avoiding the confrontation, eh? Who cares? How many people who are really attracted to the Jesus of the gospels and the faith of the community choose in the end to dump it all because they couldn’t cross every “T” on the doctrine of Inerrancy.

Next time somebody asks me, “What’s your take on the Trinity?” I’m just saying, “Father, Son, and Spirit—one God.” Not enough? Go ask somebody else. What’s the big deal folks?

I’m tired of theology.

We complicate things too much.

We’re control freaks.

We get life from being right.

Sitting in front of the fire last night I believe I heard God say, “Give it a rest Tom. Forget theology in 2003. Just forget it why don’t ya!”

Could that have been God talking to me?

Tom

"When you mix things up they get messy" Fred

might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 12/26/2002 5:03 AM (GMT -6)

Tom says:

quote:
We get life from being right.

I think this sums it up pretty well.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 12/26/2002 5:19 AM (GMT -6)

Tom: I take solace in what you have said. Having just finished Geisler's take on the open view (and having Frame's work somewhere, to be taken up at a later date), it is heavy on my heart that we all seem, many times, to feel as if we know God. God must sometimes shake his head.
What I have learned is how little the Bible explained and how little God actually requires of us to believe, as opposed to what many Christians seem to require. My reasons for studying the open view was not to embrace it (though I have, for the most part) but to see if it fell into what I considered "orthodox" Christianity, which I believe it does. What I have come to find in debating it is I am uncomfortable not only with how many Christians who oppose it conduct themselves, but also my attitudes towards them sometimes. I found lately that I tire of the debate not just because of the mischaracterizations of the open view and lack of worthy argument toward it, but also because my own attitude has become less than godly.
Am I going to throw my books away and stop reading on theology? No, because, ultimately, I see that as counterproductive to my journey toward God. Rather, I am going to try and balance my searches towards books more reflective in nature. And read more novels.
In the end, if we Christians do not learn to love more, it is worthness away.

kerygma
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Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 12/26/2002 8:48 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

I tell ya, I’ve considered loading my library up in the van and driving it all down to the Mediterranean and tossing the whole caboodle in one book at a time. I can’t live half of what I already know. Same is true for most of us. Why not just keep it simple and move on to loving people? I don’t get it....

Next time somebody asks me, “What’s your take on the Trinity?” I’m just saying, “Father, Son, and Spirit—one God.” Not enough? Go ask somebody else. What’s the big deal folks?

I’m tired of theology.

We complicate things too much.

We’re control freaks.

We get life from being right.

Sitting in front of the fire last night I believe I heard God say, “Give it a rest Tom. Forget theology in 2003. Just forget it why don’t ya!”

Could that have been God talking to me?

Tom

God, or Jesus, Tom. I only get this feeling when I spend too much time on these boards! (No offense, just the truth).

Jesus knew the dangers of religion. He was hated by some of the most religious people in Jerusalem. While the sinners and outcasts of society were attracted to Him, the religionists of His day--the Pharisees, scribes, Sadducees, and priests--were with few exceptions His bitter enemies.

Jesus did not flatter these religious leaders. He didn't leave room for the notion that they were godly men who had just made a mistake about Him. He said that if they had known His Father, they would have known Him. To their face, He called them hypocrites and blind leaders of the blind.

This isn't the storyline many of us might expect. We might expect Jesus' enemies to surface among the atheists, secular thinkers, and criminal elements of society. That wasn't the case. Street people were attracted to Him. Sinners were among His friends. Even Pilate, the pagan Roman governor of Judea, was inclined to give Jesus more consideration and benefit of the doubt. The religious Sadducees and Pharisees of Jerusalem, however, were always trying to discredit Jesus. They had no use for Him, and they were convinced that the world would be a better place without Him.

Listen to the words of brother James:

"If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this: To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." James 1:26-27

Convicting, isn't it? I type this as a reminder to myself.

God bless your simple faith.

Scott

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 12/26/2002 10:06 AM (GMT -6)

By Tom, I can relate! I hear ya, brother!

For Tom,

Starkman

churchmouse522
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163

Posted 12/26/2002 12:42 PM (GMT -6)

Bless you Tom. I think we've all been there. (I happen to know that even Doc has been there! and he loves this stuff.) I actually lost most of my friends at one point because I cut my hair and started wearing blue jeans. Makes you want to cry. Actually, I did cry.

Isn't it challenging to love and think at the same time?

Do what you need to do Tom. We'll be loving you either way.

Mouse

churchmouse522
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163

Posted 12/26/2002 12:44 PM (GMT -6)

And here's a reply Jesus resorted to: he stooped down and wrote in the sand.

graygirl
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 78

Posted 12/26/2002 2:52 PM (GMT -6)

I hear ya Tom.

I feel that way about theology, politics, denomination.

"But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2 COrinthians 11:3

I hate that I get engrossed in all that stuff at times and it explodes in my head and I find myself stuck.

Sometimes I dream of moving away from it all....somewhere in the fields, with flowers, with God's beautiful nature...with the quiet, the peace...and simply bask in the presence of God.

there's too much noise out there.

Peace to you.

GG

honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 12/26/2002 7:54 PM (GMT -6)

I would like to this: while I don't like it to take control, I believe the study is very much worth it. Theology is a wonderful thing, for it reflects God when used properly. My problem is when I make IT the focus rather than its subject (God). But I will always be interested in theology because I am interested in God. But being interested in God should make us interested in people.
By the way, Jesus did not condemn the Pharisees for their knowledge per se. He condemned them for making their knowledge more important than people and God.

trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 12/26/2002 10:05 PM (GMT -6)

Tom:

quote:
As I looked over this past year and considered my public embracing of the open view, it dawned on me that this same friend who gave me the book (and who was indeed a very close friend) and I have watched our friendship pretty much dissolve.

Wow! That would be tough. The tension and passion in which you both feel toward you own views must be great.

I'm with you in that sometimes we need to STOP and evaluate what is really important and worth the fight. Balancing love within our differences is sometimes so tough.

Peace,
trosie

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/27/2002 9:01 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks family!

Love,
Tom

"When you mix things up they get messy" Fred

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/27/2002 9:07 AM (GMT -6)

Mouse: ...I cut my hair and started wearing blue jeans.

Tom: Well, now, I don't know Mouse. Gotta draw the line somewhere. Cutting your hair and wearing jeans is just too far! $*#*&#@!&^$

Mouse: Do what you need to do Tom. We'll be loving you either way.

Tom:

"When you mix things up they get messy" Fred

kerygma
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 12/29/2002 3:41 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

By the way, Jesus did not condemn the Pharisees for their knowledge per se. He condemned them for making their knowledge more important than people and God.

Exactly. And for the ways they found to do that.

Can you imagine being likened to "whitewashed tombs" by Jesus the Christ, "all pretty and shining on the outside, but full of dead man's bones and everything unclean on the inside"? Ouch.

In His peace,

Scott

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/30/2002 1:20 AM (GMT -6)

I hear ya Tom. Boy do I hear you.

The whole openness debate has been enlightening to me as well. I have come to the conclusion that a great deal of evangelical religiousity -- and maybe religiousity in general -- is driven by a need for psychological security on the part of the masses plus a preservation of power on the part of many leaders. Combined, they make genuine dialogue -- to say nothing of loving debate -- almost impossible. There is a built in phobia of learning new things. Faith is largely reduced to a psychological insistence that one is RIGHT.

As you say, "we get life from our RIGHTNESS."

Having said that, Tom, I wouldn't jettison theology as such. Consider the following: I

1. Theology is unavoidable. Even the conclusion that much religiousity is missing the boat because of its nit-picky obsessions with "THE right view" IS a theological conclusion. Even the conclusion that the only thing that ultimately matters is our love is a theological conclusion.

2. It affects life. As you know, people are helped or hurt by their theology. We need good theology -- espoused by people who DON'T get life from its rightness, but just hold it because they hold it -- if only because there is so much bad theology. When a person rejects faith in God because "he took my child", they NEED SOMEONE to help them through it. THAT is doing theology.

3. Some DO learn from others. Consider that you have been changed, and presumably helped, by theology. SOME people DO learn. They are not feeding off their rightness. They are searching. So there is hope.

4. There IS Good Theology. Its just that most of it isn't narrowly "evangelical." I've been reading some Stanley Hauerwas lately: THAT is GOOD theology. Deitrich Bonhoeffer: GOOD theology. C.S.Lewis, Yoder, Polkinghorne, Moltmann... GOOD theology.

Reading the narrowly evangelical stuff can make one very cynical, as we have discovered Tom. Its largely the same old tired arguments rehearsed one more time to reconvince people that they are right and keep power structures intact. Much of it feels unreal because it is yet communicating in categories that have been antiquated for a hundred years. I'd encourage you to branch out and start feasting on other stuff that is out there.

Don't throw the theological baby out with the evangelical bathwater.

Blessings to you

Greg

PS. Don't throw your books into the Mediterranean Sea: there's many third world libraries that could use them.

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

Edited by - GregBoyd on 12/30/2002 06:22:37 AM

shell
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280

Posted 12/30/2002 4:30 AM (GMT -6)

Tom,

I'm sorry that you have been through so much because of your theological explorations. Your posts on this board have revealed so much insight and growth and that can be such gift to others who are struggling with many questions about God.

On the other hand I do believe it is okay and necessary and it sounds like possibly even direction from God for you to give it a rest for a while and just BE. Just bask in the presence of God where those questions do not matter at that point in time. Let it all go for now, but don't close the door. (I don't think you could anyway do you?

)

Take care, and many blessings to you!
Shell

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 12/30/2002 7:49 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks all (Doc and Shell most recently)-

Doc, I'll pawn my library off to the local Baptist Bible School IF I decide to get rid of it.

I see the point all around. Just feeling like I need to start radically living some of what I've learned the past couple of years.

Blessings!
Tom

"When you mix things up they get messy" Fred

Electra
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 12/30/2002 8:40 AM (GMT -6)

Tom, thank you for this thread! I am also totally burnt out on theology. And [I never thought I’d say this!!!] books in general. I feel like I’m trapped inside the movie The Mothman Prophecies, where the guy is driven to solve the mystery of this Mothman, and he is nearly consumed by it.

Anyway, I think that shell hit the nail on the head:

quote:
I do believe it is okay and necessary and it sounds like possibly even direction from God for you to give it a rest for a while and just BE. Just bask in the presence of God where those questions do not matter at that point in time. Let it all go for now, but don't close the door. (I don't think you could anyway do you?)

Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/30/2002 7:05 PM (GMT -6)

Nice posts, Doc and Tom.

fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179

Posted 12/30/2002 7:57 PM (GMT -6)

Tom- I'm new to these boards but I can certainly understand the notion.

When I was 18 years old, I was winding down a career as a burnout. Jesus Christ knocked me on the ground, made me cry like a child, then asked me to stand up and walk with him.

I spent the next six years learnng anything and everything on my way to a few BA's. (yes the six year plan, hey, I wanted to learn)

For the next year I didn't read a book, newspaper, nothing. I was burnt out again, but in a different way.

In the end, it has been a more balanced approach that allowed for brain survival. i read some books, I hangout with my wife, I work, (somedays), life is fun again. Love God throughout!

Not sure if this is any help...but I must have been feeling like a walk down memory lane...

>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET

trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 1/1/2003 5:20 PM (GMT -6)

Tom, I thought of this trhead tonight as I reread the book The Sacred Romance by Brent Curtis and John Eldredge. Here is the part that I thought you might appreciate. The first quote is found on page 8:

quote:
For above all else, the Christian life is a love affair of the heart. It cannot be lived primarily as a set of principles or ethics. It cannot be managed with steps and programs. It cannot be lived exclusively as a moral code leading to righteousness ... The truth of the gospel is intended to free us to love God and others with our whole heart. When we ignore this heart aspect of our faith and try to live out our religion solely as correct doctrine or ethics, our passion is crippled, or perverted, and the divorce of our soul from the heart purposes of God toward us is deepened.

And on page 45

quote:
For centuries prior to our Modern Era, the church viewed the gospel as a Romance, a cosmic drama whose themes permeated our own stories and drew together all the random scenes in a redemptive wholeness. But our rationalistic approach to life, which dominated Western culture for hundreds of years, has stripped us of that, leaving a faith that is barely more than mere fact-telling. Modern evangelicalism reads like an IRS 1040 form: It's true, all the data is there, but it doesn't take your breath away.

I'm not sure if this helps at all but I really wanted to share this with you to encourqage you that how you're feeling is how God designed you to feel. The questions you're having are the questions God purposed in you to draw you closer and deeper in.

trosie

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 1/1/2003 6:25 PM (GMT -6)

Trosie-

Nice quotes! On the money! I'll pick the book up asap. Have heard a lot about it but--since it wasn't a theology book!--never bothered to pick it up.

That's the truth.

Tom

"When you mix things up they get messy" Fred

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