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|  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/26/2003 4:50 AM (GMT -6) |   | Sometimes discussion about the WILL, or FREE WILL seems to dwell on whether Angels dancing on the head of a pin have what qualifies as WILL or FREE WILL when the room on that pin's head is only broad enough for Line Dancing and not for doing a proper Tango. And so it goes...
Come to think of it: Do "Line Dancers" have Free Will?
Some voice that Free Will only exists when someone can EQUALLY DESIRE both options -- and notice particularly that there HAS to be more than one option in that voicing. That is a view seen and heard.
But then there is the Orthodox voice (St. John of Damascus) that says that Mary's "YES" to the Angel was NOT DELIBERATIVE. That with all of her prepared heart she really, really, really, and wholly WANTED the "it be unto me" of the Angel's message. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Luke 1:31-33) )
But some voices object that if she really, really, really wanted only one possibility, that there was no "freedom" of choice.
How consumerist! Just try that one at home when Mom cooks what she cooks best, and it is also your favorite (Play along with me now!); you won't say, "What else is there instead?" Whatzamatta Bub? Ya think this is a restaurant?
Free will isn't consumerist.
Neither is free will dependant on a numerical number of available possibilities.
You may agree or disagree.
Here is someone who is well known for his thinking and articuations: G. K. Chesterton. What follows is not exactly the same as what I've complained about.
SO, FOR YOUR INCREASED CHOICE...
quote: All the will-worshippers, from Nietzsche to Mr. Davidson, are really quite empty of volition. They cannot will, they can hardly wish. And if any one wants a proof of this, it can be found quite easily. It can be found in this fact: that they always talk of will as something that expands and breaks out. But it is quite the opposite. Every act of will is an act of self-limitation. To desire action is to desire limitation. In that sense every act is an act of self-sacrifice. When you choose anything, you reject everything else. That objection, which men of this school used to make to the act of marriage, is really an objection to every act. Every act is an irrevocable selection exclusion. Just as when you marry one woman you give up all the others, so when you take one course of action you give up all the other courses. If you become King of England, you give up the post of Beadle in Brompton. If you go to Rome, you sacrifice a rich suggestive life in Wimbledon. It is the existence of this negative or limiting side of will that makes most of the talk of the anarchic will-worshippers little better than nonsense. For instance, Mr. John Davidson tells us to have nothing to do with “Thou shalt not”; but it is surely obvious that “Thou shalt not” is only one of the necessary corollaries of “I will.” “I will go to the Lord Mayor’s Show, and thou shalt not stop me.” Anarchism adjures us to be bold creative artists, and care for no laws or limits. But it is impossible to be an artist and not care for laws and limits. Art is limitation; the essence of every picture is the frame. If you draw a giraffe, you must draw him with a long neck. If, in your bold creative way, you hold yourself free to draw a giraffe with a short neck, you will really find that you are not free to draw a giraffe. The moment you step into the world of facts, you step into a world of limits. You can free things from alien or accidental laws, but not from the laws of their own nature. You may, if you like, free a tiger from his bars; but do not free him from his stripes. Do not free a camel of the burden of his hump: you may be freeing him from being a camel. Do not go about as a demagogue, encouraging triangles to break out of the prison of their three sides. If a triangle breaks out of its three sides, its life comes to a lamentable end. Somebody wrote a work called “The Loves of the Triangles”; I never read it, but I am sure that if triangles ever were loved, they were loved for being triangular. This is certainly the case with all artistic creation, which is in some ways the most decisive example of pure will. The artist loves his limitations: they constitute the thing he is doing. The painter is glad that the canvas is flat. The sculptor is glad that the clay is colourless.
(From Chapter Three of "ORTHODOXY", By Gilbert K. Chesterton, www.ccel.org/c/chesterton/orthodoxy/)
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 02/26/2003 09:56:09 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  a_theist "Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002 Total Posts : 286 | Posted 2/26/2003 5:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | I thought this was going to be a thread about that guy, Mork from Ork!
Hah!
Peace, Paul
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects." ~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/26/2003 7:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Paul: I thought this was going to be a thread about that guy, Mork from Ork!
TIME FOR A QUIZ
Question #1 - List the following in their historical order:
* the TV character "Mork from Ork" ** the movie "Good Will Hunting" *** the author G. K. Chesterton
Question #2 - Identify which picture matches with each of the three above choices
Question #3 - How many times does Robin Williams show up in the three pictures above?
Question #4 - When is Robin Williams going to make a movie about G. K. Chesterton?
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 02/26/2003 12:25:09 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  ¡Que Payaso! Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 108 | Posted 2/26/2003 7:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Sometimes discussion about the WILL, or FREE WILL seems to dwell on whether Angels dancing on the head of a pin have what qualifies as WILL or FREE WILL when the room on that pin's head is only broad enough for Line Dancing and not for doing a proper Tango. And so it goes...
Maybe this will help: http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume7/v7i3/angels-7-3.htm
Payaso 
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/27/2003 1:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | payaso provides us with this:

Good, going.
How, how big a pin do you need for Robin Williams to dance on it?
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/27/2003 4:20 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Every act of will is an act of self-limitation. To desire action is to desire limitation. In that sense every act is an act of self-sacrifice. When you choose anything, you reject everything else. That objection, which men of this school used to make to the act of marriage, is really an objection to every act. Every act is an irrevocable selection exclusion. Just as when you marry one woman you give up all the others, so when you take one course of action you give up all the other courses. If you become King of England, you give up the post of Beadle in Brompton. If you go to Rome, you sacrifice a rich suggestive life in Wimbledon. It is the existence of this negative or limiting side of will that makes most of the talk of the anarchic will-worshippers little better than nonsense. For instance, Mr. John Davidson tells us to have nothing to do with “Thou shalt not”; but it is surely obvious that “Thou shalt not” is only one of the necessary corollaries of “I will.” “I will go to the Lord Mayor’s Show, and thou shalt not stop me.” Anarchism adjures us to be bold creative artists, and care for no laws or limits. But it is impossible to be an artist and not care for laws and limits. Art is limitation; the essence of every picture is the frame. If you draw a giraffe, you must draw him with a long neck. If, in your bold creative way, you hold yourself free to draw a giraffe with a short neck, you will really find that you are not free to draw a giraffe. The moment you step into the world of facts, you step into a world of limits. You can free things from alien or accidental laws, but not from the laws of their own nature. You may, if you like, free a tiger from his bars; but do not free him from his stripes. Do not free a camel of the burden of his hump: you may be freeing him from being a camel. Do not go about as a demagogue, encouraging triangles to break out of the prison of their three sides. If a triangle breaks out of its three sides, its life comes to a lamentable end. Somebody wrote a work called “The Loves of the Triangles”; I never read it, but I am sure that if triangles ever were loved, they were loved for being triangular. This is certainly the case with all artistic creation, which is in some ways the most decisive example of pure will. The artist loves his limitations: they constitute the thing he is doing. The painter is glad that the canvas is flat. The sculptor is glad that the clay is colourless.
(From Chapter Three of "ORTHODOXY", By Gilbert K. Chesterton, http://www.ccel.org/c/chesterton/orthodoxy/)
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