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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655

Posted 5/12/2003 9:26 AM (GMT -6)

If God is in control of everything, and whatever God wills, will be, then what is the point of prayer for intervention? God is going to will what he wills regardless of what a human asks for, right? [kinda Calvinism]

On the other hand, if God is not in control of everything, and God doesn't really will anything b/c he has no plan for us, then again what is the point of prayer for intervention? God is not going to intervene and invade on some human's free will, so why even ask Him? [kinda OT]

This seems to be a dilemma. What is the point of prayer under any view?
Praying by worshiping or giving God the glory is one thing, but the Bible seems to support supplicatory and petitionary prayer as well.

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true."
- James Branch Cabell

DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457

Posted 5/12/2003 10:55 AM (GMT -6)

I don't think our choices are unconditioned, uninfluenced by others. Petitionary prayer is part of the say-so that God allocates to us. If one operates within an onto-theology were there is a finite amount of power/governance/say-so in the world then any allocation of power through prayer by God, requires that God not be in control of how or what that person prays for.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

Leila
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93

Posted 5/12/2003 11:46 AM (GMT -6)

I’ve always questioned the practical purpose of petitionery/supplicatory prayer and I’d just like to add a few more specific questions to the topic:

(1) To the Open Theists: If you believe prayer can change God’s mind, could you explain how you think this is done? For example, every night when I pray with my daughters I say a general prayer asking God to keep them safe and healthy. Would you say that my bringing this to God’s attention through prayer actually influences him to intervene in matters concerning my children’s health and safety? Or can prayer be used only to change God’s mind concerning specific requests, eg., please cure my daughter’s disease?

(2) To the Calvinists: If you believe the future is predetermined, do you believe there is a practical purpose to petitionary/supplicatory prayer?

(3) What is the traditional Arminian view concerning the purpose of petitionary/supplicatory prayer?

Thanks!

Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 5/12/2003 6:06 PM (GMT -6)

Reasonable,

"If God is in control of everything, and whatever God wills, will be...." to "On the other hand, if God is not in control of everything, and God doesn't really will anything b/c he has no plan for us...." is to go from one extreme to another without consideration that neither of these may be the accurate question:

"If God is in control of everything (nothing is out of God's control, as if God's ever caught off guard and says to Himself and others around, "Oh my Me, it's all out control! I can't keep her together, Captain!") and does have a plan for us, and yet still respects the limited freedom He gave us, what good is prayer?"

If, as an irresponsible teenager, I ask my mother for the keys to the car, she may say yes or no, depending on where I'm going, who is going with me, and what time I'll be back. She may decide that my request is beyond my means of responsibility. Or she may decide that I can be trusted and will hand me the keys. Either way, she is in control, and she has a plan for my life, if nothing more than to ensure that I survive my teenage years! (I'm 42, so she succeeded!)

It's simple relationship God has with us, like a mother and father with their child(ren). God's never out of control, and He surely does have a plan for our lives, if nothing more than to help us to grow up in Christ. (By "plan" we don't have to think of God approaching us and saying, "Here, read this: it's a blueprint; my plan for your life." Not at all.)

What ticks me off, though, is that God don't tell me what He is or isn't going to do, or if He will or will not do such and such. It's gets old and frustrating sometimes, but ultimately I'm driven to say, "Cool, God. I'm here no matter what."

For chattin' with God,

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?
Charlie Brown

Edited by - Starkman on 05/12/2003 11:09:19 PM

John Earp
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Posted 5/12/2003 7:38 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

On the other hand, if God is not in control of everything, and God doesn't really will anything b/c he has no plan for us, then again what is the point of prayer for intervention? God is not going to intervene and invade on some human's free will, so why even ask Him? [kinda OT]

Actually, RD, the portion I bolded in above would be categorically denied by Open Theists.

As to God intervening and invading some human's free will, again, it seems you have mischaracterized OVT. The Open view affirms (with Scripture) that God has a plan for us, but that this plan is not guaranteed to happen as it may be resisted and even possibly ultimately thwarted by one's own rebellion against God's plan, or even may be negatively affected by someone else's rebellion against God (such as murder, rape, child molestation, etc), and even may be affected negatively by someone else's negligence (not willful, just stupid), such as a drunk driver's lack of control (due to his previous sinful choice to get drunk) causing his car to careen out of control and kill innocent (in this case) bystanders.

As to prayer in general, I don't find Open Theism would generally agree with the terms, "intervening" and "invading" as those would imply unilateral control by God, and Open Theists tend to see "God taking over" as being the exception rather than the rule. I think the best way to view prayer from the Open view is one of influence.

For example, though a preacher's son who knew better, I rebelled against God in my teens and early 20s (not all that uncommon, really). During that time, I know for a fact that my father prayed for me often (my mother had turned away from God to live a sinful, adulterous lifestyle, and I really don't think she was praying for me). In fact, every time I would talk to my dad on the phone or in person, he would gently try to "nudge" me back to church and to what I already knew to be the right way of living. This had a profound influence upon me, and along with the good memories that I had of knowing God's peace and presence formerly, I eventually gave in to the Spirit's call.

God didn't override my ability to choose, he overwhelmed my desire to resist by revealing just part of His amazing love to me. It was not coercion, it was persuasion.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/13/2003 12:30 AM (GMT -6)

Starky is right! RD’s two options aren’t the only options.

Option A: If God is in control of everything, and whatever God wills, will be, then what is the point of prayer for intervention? God is going to will what he wills regardless of what a human asks for, right?

Option B: If God is not in control of everything, and God doesn't really will anything b/c he has no plan for us, then again what is the point of prayer for intervention? God is not going to intervene and invade on some human's free will, so why even ask Him?

I don’t recognize either of this as the view I hold to. So to these let’s add at least a third (and there are others too!):

Option C: God exercises unilateral control over some things in the world and multilateral control over things. James said the fervent prayer of a righteous person “makes much power available.” When we partner with God through prayer, the possibilities and probabilities for good in the world are increased. When we don’t pray, God’s will is sometimes not done. God decided to create this kind of world.

Ezekiel 22 is a good example of God’s will NOT being accomplished because people would not partner with him in prayer. Is this a mystery? HOW it works is indeed a mystery. THAT it works is not!

RD: This seems to be a dilemma. What is the point of prayer under any view?

Tom: You only have a dilemma if you limit yourself to the two views you describe. I’m VERY happy to hear, though, that you admit there’s no point in praying if one believes the world to be exhaustively and unconditionally determined by God. There’s also no point in praying if one believes God controls nothing and has no power at all.

Terrance Teissen has a very nice book on this, Providence and Prayer: How God works in the world. Very good. Teissen is NOT an open theist by the way. But he considers all the different models of prayer and providence fairly. There are more than just two models by the way (or three)!

RD: Praying by worshiping or giving God the glory is one thing, but the Bible seems to support supplicatory and petitionary prayer as well.

Tom: “I feel the earth…move…under my feet; I see the sky tumbling down…a tumbling down.” La ti da ti da!

Tom

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/13/2003 3:49 AM (GMT -6)

Were the skies of parchment made!

There is SO MUCH to say about this very important subject. I don’t know where to begin.

Let me start with Leila’s question:

quote:
(1) To the Open Theists: If you believe prayer can change God’s mind, could you explain how you think this is done? For example, every night when I pray with my daughters I say a general prayer asking God to keep them safe and healthy. Would you say that my bringing this to God’s attention through prayer actually influences him to intervene in matters concerning my children’s health and safety? Or can prayer be used only to change God’s mind concerning specific requests, eg., please cure my daughter’s disease?

OK. I wanna offer a quick, and probably inadequate, answer to Leila, then post something on prayer from a great book on the subject.

Leila, the mystery of prayer is in HOW it connects with God in influencing and bringing about events that otherwise would not have occurred. If by “HOW is this done” you mean “Offer me a detailed psychology of God” then you’re out of luck. We all will have to tread lightly here.

But THAT prayer is one of the factors God takes into consideration is NOT a mystery. This we know from Scripture. We have examples of God willing something and that something NOT taking place because people would not pray. We are clearly commanded (and invited) by God to pray. We’re told prayer releases power. And God is described in Scripture as changing his mind in response to the prayers of people. In the vast complex configuration of divine, human, angelic and demonic influences at work, human prayer appears to be designed by God to wield a good deal of influence.

So, yes, your prayers for your children have great power and influence. Through prayer you become an active and important partner in bringing God’s purposes for their lives to pass. And a prayer for the safety and health of a child IS a specific request. There’s nothing general about it. Theirs is ample reason from Scripture to justify the belief that God does act in response to our prayers in ways he would not otherwise act.

Doc has a great post on prayer but I can’t find it. He posted a big section of his chapter on prayer in Satan and the Problem of Evil. Care to repost that baby Doc? It was good.

Here's another discussion we had on prayer:

Prayer: How does it work? http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1699

Here are some thoughts I had on the subject some time ago:

Consider the place and urgency of prayer. It is precisely here where God invites us to participate with him through petitionary prayer and obedience in accomplishing his purposes. For such prayer to have integrity to it, I believe, it must be the case that we genuinely influence the outcome of events. That is, many times the future God intends to actualize through us fails to come about as desired because we fail to respond as we might. The point is that things might genuinely have been different from God’s point of view had people made different choices. But if the potential difference which prayer makes is as real for God as we believe it is for us, then God faces a future that is in some respects open and unresolved and has freely decided to allow us a part in resolving it. Open theists simply point out that it is not resolved until we resolve it and hence cannot be eternally foreknown in its resolved state. Our lives make a difference to God and the world, this difference possesses integrity for both God and us, and in my view the open view makes best theological sense of this difference.

Consider too how most, if not all, of us already live our lives. Christians universally live as though the open view were true. We believe that when we deliberate between two options we face genuine possibilities either of which “may” come to pass. We believe that when we fail to pray events God wishes to bring to pass sometimes do not come to pass (e.g., Ezek 22). This in itself is an admission of the intuitive belief that the future is partly open, that our choices many times bring about events that might just as easily not have come about. We believe that some events could have been other than they were and that our choices to cooperate with God or not through prayer and obedience are at least sometimes the ultimate explanation of why these events were not what they could have been (or of why they were what they might not have been). Our prayers and obedience to God are his means for transitioning such possibilities into realities. The open view simply seeks to articulate a theology and an understanding of the future that accounts for what Christians universally experience and believe intuitively to be the case.

Tom

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/13/2003 4:25 AM (GMT -6)

Let me reeeeally bore you know. Some excerpts from:

Vincent Brummer, What Are We Doing When We Pray?: A Philosophical Inquiry (SCM: London, 1984).

Chapter 3 “Praying for Things to Happen”

The doctrine that petitionary prayer is impetratory (i.e., aimed at getting things by asking for them) raises various problems in connection with God’s immutability, omniscience and perfect goodness as well as with the nature of his agency in the world…It is important to note two presuppositions involved in all such impetratory prayer: First, the things prayed for have…a ‘two-way contingency’, i.e. it is neither impossible nor inevitable that God should bring them about. Secondly, the prayer itself is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for God’s doing what is asked. These presuppositions need some further explanation.

1. Two-way contingency
Among the presuppositions which are constitutive for all prescriptive speech acts (including requests) is the two-way contingency of whatever is being asked for. On the one hand, it makes no sense for me to ask someone to do something if I do not presuppose that that person is able to do what I ask. It is meaningless to ask for the impossible…On the other hand, it is pointless to ask someone to do what he cannot avoid doing. It is meaningless to ask for the inevitable. This two-way contingency determines the limits of what could meaningfully be asked.

………

It is clear that the practice of impeteratory prayer presupposes a personal God who can freely choose to do certain things even though he has the ability to do otherwise. Only such things have the two-way contingency necessary for them to be the sort of things which could meaningfully be the objects of petition.

………

2. A second presupposition which is also constitutive for impetratory prayer, is that God does what he is asked because he is asked. In this sense the petition itself is a condition for God’s doing what he is requested. On the one hand, however, it is not a sufficient condition making it inevitable for God to comply with the request. In that case prayer would become a kind of magical technique by which God could be manipulated by us, and we would no longer approach him as a rational agent who acts from free choice. On the other hand, although the petition is not a cause which makes God’s response inevitable, it is the reason for his response: God does what he does because he is asked. In this sense the request is a necessary condition for God’s doing what he asked.

………

God fulfills most of our needs and desires without our having to ask him. If, however, he were to fulfill all our needs and desires in this way, we would be like pot-plants on his window-sill and not persons with whom he has a personal relationship. In this sense petitionary prayer in which we acknowledge God’s agency and accept our dependence on him, is a necessary condition for God giving us what we need within the context of a personal relation. Without our requests God can bring about what we need, but he cannot give us anything in a personal sense.

Tom

Leila
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93

Posted 5/13/2003 4:44 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Tom. Thanks for answering my questions re: how OT view prayer. I really liked your analogy you used on a previous post about painting with your daughter. May I ask you a few more questions about your views on prayer:

(1) There are many passages in scripture that say we will get whatever we ask for in prayer. For example, Jesus said: “Whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours” (Mark 11:24) and “I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” (John 14:13-14.).

Now obviously we are not going to get anything and everything we ask for in prayer. So what exactly do these passages mean? That we will get anything we ask for as long as it is God’s will? If that’s it, then what about the whole OT view that we have the power through prayer to influence God?

(2) What about quantity of prayer? Is there scripture to support that God is influenced more by hundreds of people praying for the same thing than only a few?

(3) You mentioned instances in the Bible where God refused to act because people did not pray. Could you tell me where this is?

(4) Would the traditional Arminian (non-OT) view on prayer be essentially the same as the OT view – that God gives us the power to influence him through prayer -- except God already knew what would be prayed and therefore already knew what his response would be?

Thanks Tom. I truly appreciate the time you take to respond.

One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888

Posted 5/13/2003 5:15 AM (GMT -6)

Just my little two cents...

Given the OVT, I think that God's providence dealing with petitionary prayer is conditioned by these things:

1) God's will and intentions (God's DESIRE and plans)

2) God's leeway, given God's self-limiting intentions and creational factors ("God always does the best that God can do" thing)

3) Amount and duration of faith-filled prayer

In other words, specific requests may be granted by God if and only if...

--the request does not go against something that God wills as a NON-NEGOTIABLE. (Really important!!)

--God's self-limiting intentions and/or creational factors don't get in the way

--there is enough faith-filled prayer to provide God with "room to move", either by CHANGING God's mind or reducing the creational factors going against God acting.

The general form of the prayer would be like so...

God, I ask that, IF POSSIBLE (given Your Will and other self- limiting circumstances), you bring X about.

Basically, I see this just like Jesus' Gethsemane prayer...

Mat 26:42 NIV
He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

Mar 14:36 NIV
"Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

Luke 22:42 NIV
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

This prayer, I think, does a better job than any other in the Bible of acknowledging the ability of prayer to be expectant (knowing God's character and power), but not presumptuous (knowing the constraints of God's self-limitations and willing).

Coming in second would be...

Daniel 3:16-18
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."

Tom, do yer thing, man...

Edited by - MephEternal on 05/13/2003 10:16:53 AM

Leila
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93

Posted 5/18/2003 3:13 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks for responding, MephEternal. Do you know of any scripture that supports the notion that God is more likely to respond to number of prayers? I know we as individuals are supposed to be persistent and pray without ceasing, but do you know if there is scriptural support for the notion that God is more likely to respond to 100 prayers for something than for, say, 10?

Tom, are you out there? I'd really appreciate if you (or anyone else?) could answer my follow-up questions, esp. scriptural evidence of God not acting because of absence of prayer.

I'm going to start a new thread re: the Calvinist view on prayer since I'm really curious as to what their purpose of petitionary prayer could possibly be.

Hope to hear from someone; this prayer topic is really interesting and important to me. Thanks.

Springs
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Total Posts : 636

Posted 5/18/2003 6:21 PM (GMT -6)

Greetings Leila,
Here is a passage from Ezekial. Standing in the gap, is interpreted as intercessor prayer, by some.

Ezekial 22:27 "Her officials within her are like wolves tearing its prey; they shed blood and kill people to make unjust gain. 28 Her prophets whitewash these deeds for them by false visions and lying divinations. They say, "This is what the Sovereign Lord says" - when the Lord has not spoken. 29 The people of the land practice extortion and commit robbery; they oppress the poor and needy and mistreat the alien, denying them justice."

30 "I looked for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found none. 31 So will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger, bringing down on the heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign Lord."

I believe that the prayer of one is enough. I believe that more people praying, is more of a good thing. Course, I have no way of knowing subjectively whether anyone is praying with faith, except myself.

And I know I have more faith sometimes, than other times, and sometimes I have more faith for some things, than other things. But, My lap top just quit working! And I'm in the middle of writing my senior paper! So if there's anybody out there feeling annointed, send one up for me.

Springs

"Dreams are illustrations...from the book your soul is writing about you." -Marsha Norman

Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 5/18/2003 6:55 PM (GMT -6)

Thank you! Oh annointed one, or ones! My lap top lives!
Thank you Lord!

My lap top has been dead all afternoon, I was starting to get worried.
What a relief.

-S

"Dreams are illustrations...from the book your soul is writing about you." -Marsha Norman

selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 5/19/2003 1:33 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Do you know of any scripture that supports the notion that God is more likely to respond to number of prayers? I know we as individuals are supposed to be persistent and pray without ceasing, but do you know if there is scriptural support for the notion that God is more likely to respond to 100 prayers for something than for, say, 10?

Tom, are you out there? I'd really appreciate if you (or anyone else?) could answer my follow-up questions, esp. scriptural evidence of God not acting because of absence of prayer...

Hope to hear from someone; this prayer topic is really interesting and important to me. Thanks.

Here's something Leila

Luke 18:1-8
1 Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart, 2 saying, "In a certain city there was a judge who did not fear God and did not respect man. 3 "There was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him, saying, `Give me legal protection from my opponent.' 4 "For a while he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, `Even though I do not fear God nor respect man, 5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will give her legal protection, otherwise by continually coming she will wear me out.' " 6 And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge said; 7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them? 8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

Blessings,
love,
selah

Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1

Edited by - Selah on 05/19/2003 06:38:28 AM

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 5/19/2003 2:32 AM (GMT -6)

Leila-

It’s nice to hear people share on this. Here are my 2 cents.

About Mk 11.24, my answer is that I don’t know. I honestly don’t know what Jesus was talking about. Interpreted literally is doesn’t seem to make sense on any model of prayer I know about. It seems to promise a lot: “Anything” we ask for? Hmmm. I think we all, determinists and open viewers alike, have to try to understand Jesus’ promise here in context (which unfortunately doesn’t help a lot either!), but at least the problem this passage presents it presents to all models of prayer.

About the amount of prayer, I’ve always thought that “one” righteous prayer would be enough. “The prayer of a righteous person releases much power,” James said. Did he mean that lots of righteous people praying releases a lot more power? If so, then numbers matter. I think Doc takes this view. But James might be making the opposite point, that numbers are not what God is into. If he can find one person to cooperate with his purposes in prayer, that’s powerful enough a combination to get the job done.

I go back and forth on this one. There is a special something, a dynamic of sorts, that works in US when we are many, united and praying in agreement. I’m not sure God requires it, but perhaps WE require it. Its advantage may be in what OUR gathering corporately for prayer does in US that makes us more sensitive and available to God. One thing for sure, God did command Old Testament Israel to gather corporately for prayer, and (I think I’m right on this too) every revival Israel experienced was related to one of the nation’s annual feasts when everybody was commanded to gather to corporate prayer. Something to think about.

So a simple answer might be: God may only need one person, but no one person doesn’t need others at one time or another.

About biblical examples of God’s will not coming to pass because of a failure on the part of people to pray, Springs mentioned Ezekiel. That’s an explicit example. From there we might consider other examples where God admits he wants to forgive and deliver, but that forgiving and delivering are contingent upon others. It’s not about “prayer” specifically, but it does show that God’s will is not always done (whether it’s because we fail to pray or fail to obey him). Jeremiah 18.1-10 and 23.1ff come to mind.

You asked on another thread whether determinists pray for the same reasons open theists pray. There is probably some overlap, but there’s a lot of difference too. A difference in belief about what providence is will mean a difference in belief about what prayer is.

For determinists (Christian can correct me if I’m off here), prayer is always God’s predetermined means for bringing about predetermined ends. Determinists do say, “We must pray!” and they can admit “If we don’t prayer, such-and-such will not happen.” But there’s something very different going on here, and when you look BACK on past prayers and events, the difference shows up. For a determinist, it remains true that if we DON’T pray and such-and-such DOESN’T happen, then this was as predetermined by God as anything else. A determinists cannot look back and say, “God wanted to bring about such-and-such but was unable to because we refused to pray.” This is what the Ezekiel passages shows us. Prayer and effects that follow prayer as well as the absence of prayer and the effects that follow are, in determinism, both determined by God. There’s no “two-way contingency,” and that’s what makes the difference in how we understand the “urgency” and “place” of prayer. Calvinists deny that our lack of prayer is ever responsible for things being other than they might have been from God’s point of view. In fact, in an exhaustively determined world there can be no such thing as a “failure” to pray.

About traditional Arminian simple foreknowledge and prayer, things don’t fare much better. If for determinists there can be no such thing as a “failure” to pray, then for advocates of simple foreknowledge it can never be the case from God’s point of view that events may genuinely be other than they are. As amazing as it may seem, the simple foreknowledge model seems to me to be nothing more than pre-recorded open theism.

Think about it. The simple foreknowledge model believes that we live in a world where God really responds to us, where we are really free to choose, where our prayers really make a difference to God, and where things might sometimes really be different than they are. Open theists also believe we live in this kind of world. The only difference is that advocates of simple foreknowledge believe that everything about this world exists eternally in God’s mind, and their trust in God’s providential care rests in this being the case. But I ask, what difference would such knowledge make to God? What difference would it make to the world? What providential advantage would God gain by possessing this kind of foreknowledge? None whatsoever. And if such knowledge is of no practical value to God, believing that he possesses such knowledge is of no practical value to us.

If God possesses simple foreknowledge, it can have nothing whatsoever to do with whether we pray or not, how we pray, what we pray for, and most importantly, it can provide God no basis upon which to answer our prayers. If God possessed timeless knowledge of every move I make in life, it would do him no good. He could not use this knowledge to strategize, plan, or respond to any of my moves, for every move he ever makes is equally foreknown in the one timeless act of knowing. Simple foreknowledge is providentially useless.

Tom

Edited by - TGB on 05/19/2003 07:46:53 AM

Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 5/19/2003 3:23 AM (GMT -6)

Leila

quote:

(1) There are many passages in scripture that say we will get whatever we ask for in prayer. For example, Jesus said: “Whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours” (Mark 11:24) and “I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” (John 14:13-14.).

Now obviously we are not going to get anything and everything we ask for in prayer. So what exactly do these passages mean? That we will get anything we ask for as long as it is God’s will? If that’s it, then what about the whole OT view that we have the power through prayer to influence God?

I have two thoughts on this.

1. While we're in dialogue with God (prayer), He reasons with us, helping us see what is realistic or not, what our motives are, etc.
I don't think we can just make some ridiculous request if we are really in communication with Him.

2. God does grant requests that aren't His perfect will for us, but are allowable. Moses' request that Aaron be sent with him to Egypt, to do the talking, is one such example. God's perfect will was for Moses to go and do the talking himself. God allowed Moses' request for Aaron. (Moses later had problems with Aaron)

Another example is Abraham bargaining with God concerning God's intention to destroy Sodom. Abraham requested that God relent if 50 righteous people could be found in Sodom. God allowed that. Then Abraham kept bargaining, getting God down to 45 people, then 40, then 30, then 20 and finally 10. This shows a difference between God's perfect will and what is allowable.

Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through?

Leila
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 93

Posted 5/19/2003 3:39 PM (GMT -6)

This thread has been very helpful to me. Thanks all!

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