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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 3/30/2003 2:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Rom 6:14)
Paul is telling me to account or to reckon the old man as forever dead, to account him as already dead because of my identification with Jesus' death on the cross. Reckon yourselves to be . . . alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord - my death to sin is only one side of the equation; the old man is gone, but the new man lives on (as described in 6:4-5)
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body: this is something that can only be said to me, as a Christian, to the one who has had the old man crucified with Christ and has been given a new man in Jesus. As a Christian, I am truly set free; an unconverted person is free to sin, but not free to be righteous, because of the tyranny of the old man. In Christ, I am truly set free and offered the opportunity to obey the natural inclination of the new man - which wants to please God and honor Him.
Because of unbelief, self-reliance or ignorance, I may never live in the freedom Christ paid for on the cross. I am legally set free from my slavery to sin, however, how many are unsure of this truth?
Rom 6:11-16So you should consider yourselves dead to sin and able to live for the glory of God through Christ Jesus. Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to its lustful desires. Do not let any part of your body become a tool of wickedness, to be used for sinning. Instead, give yourselves completely to God since you have been given new life. And use your whole body as a tool to do what is right for the glory of God. Sin is no longer your master, for you are no longer subject to the law, which enslaves you to sin. Instead, you are free by God's grace.
So since God's grace has set us free from the law, does this mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! Don't you realize that whatever you choose to obey becomes your master? You can choose sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God and receive his approval.
Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you have obeyed with all your heart the new teaching God has given you. (NLT)
In relating to God and developing a life with God, I do such under the terms of grace and not under those of law. Grace not law. I develop a relationship with God and a life in the Lord, by God’s grace—that is, I do so by His provisions for me, and His work in and through me. I do not develop all that He has for me through the terms of law—that is, I cannot cultivate a life in the Lord by trying to live up to the rules and regulations of Almighty God by my own best ability.
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? (Gal 4:12)
God is Love,
Tim
2Ti 2:19…Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity...
Edited by - Tim on 03/30/2003 08:18:06 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 3/30/2003 3:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Good word Tim (and apostle Paul ). The indicative (you ARE) precedes the imperative (THEREFORE...) and THOUGHT (consider yourself) and behavior (PUT TO DEATH...).
In some ways this discussion is striking me as odd. We're arguing about whether its possible for someone to live sinless in this life, though we grant, I think, that none of us do. Isn't this wierd? I totally understand and am sympathetic to John's worry over people doing the "I can't help it" deal. But still.... its strange.
It feels to me like the texture of the discussion changes if we construe the issue in terms of love.
All holiness is a manifestation of love, as the Wesley, Finney -- and the New Testament -- teaches. The "bullseye" of life is loving like God loves -- participating in and reflecting God's perfect, eternal, triune love.
Sin is "missing the mark" -- missing the bullseye of love. Whenever we think, say or do something less than perfect love, we sin. Whenever we could have thought, said or done a loving thing but failed to do so, we sin.
I have had moments of uninterrupted, perfect love, experiences where every thought, word and deed was reflecting God's perfect love as God's perfect love was poured into me and through me. But these wonderful moments contrast with my ordinary "more or less" loving (and thus "more or less" sinful) life. I have an idea of what a person who lived in love perfectly would look like, by extending my perfect loving moments out over a life time. But I can't say that I've ever known a person who comes close to actualizing this possibility.
How do we help others -- and ourselves -- hit the bulleye? John is right in contending that we need to remind ourselves that with Christ, the eternal marksman, living within us, we HAVE the capacity to hit the mark. Amen. I would add to this that if Chrsit dwells within us, we can know that we SHALL someday be perfect marksmen -- we shall "be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ" (Rom 8:29). But I also think it important to emphasize that God is gracious and patient with us as we are learning. If we think that our relationship with God is leveraged on every individual shot we will shoot more poorly and perhaps become despondent.
We're loved and accepted in the midst of our poor shooting, and this awareness is what teaches us to shoot better.
As I grow in my knowledge and experience of God's unconditional love for me, I become more loving like this toward myself and others.
For what its worth...
now I gotta go preach it! 
Greg
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 3/30/2003 3:25 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Greg,
I added this to my previous post, which you may of missed in the crossfire…
In relating to God and developing a life with God, I do such under the terms of grace and not under those of law. Grace not law. I develop a relationship with God and a life in the Lord, by God’s grace—that is, I do so by His provisions for me, and His work in and through me. I do not develop all that He has for me through the terms of law—that is, I cannot cultivate a life in the Lord by trying to live up to the rules and regulations of Almighty God by my own best ability.
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? (Gal 4:12)
God is Love,
Tim
2Ti 2:19…Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity... | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 3/30/2003 4:35 AM (GMT -6) | | John E: thanks for the excellant points you have brought up. If the church was as serious about sin as it is about "grace," perhaps we could actually change the world, instead of sitting around our sins and thanking God for his "grace."
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 3/30/2003 6:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Galatians 4:21 responds: "You want to live under the law? Do you not hear what the law is saying?"
You want to relate to God on your own best effort before His commands and demands? Okay, then let me summarize it for you in two words twice. Be holy. Be perfect. How holy? As holy as God. How perfect? As perfect as God. That is the message of the law of God. May I not water it down! May I not make it to be less than it says! Because if I make it to be less than it says, I am not letting it fulfill the work that it is able to do in my live.
The law of God is able to do what it is intended to do. It is not able to do what it was never intended to do.
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 3/30/2003 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | | God says, "Do it!" And I want to do it.
God says, "Do not do it!" Then I do not want to do it.
God says, "Here is My standard!" Then, by God, I want to live up to it.
I just naturally start out there. My tenancy is to want to live under the law—at least unwittingly so, until I recognize what the law truly says, and of the inability of the law of God.
For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness [The former commandment in line here, is the law], for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope. (Hbr 7:18-19)
The law has this inherent inability: though it demands perfection, it cannot provide it.
Before reading Galatians 2:16, remember that justification means being declared innocent, not guilty—and that the one declaring it is the holy, perfect, righteous Judge.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; [Why?] for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. (Gal 2:16)
God says, "Come on. Come on, Tim. Just one more step. Okay! That’s it, you got it, I now declare you innocent, not guilty, no more sin. You’re righteous, Tim." Who am I kidding?
I for one, must finally admit, that I am not going to earn heaven by my own laboring under the law. I truly believe that I can not enter into God’s family by my own best efforts, which is to live up to His standards. And so, I must plead, "Mercy! Grace!" In repentance, from seeking to establish my own righteousness before God, I must ask for forgiveness and a new life, in Christ.
Holiness or rather more correctly, Sanctification; is about growing in the grace of God—not just being saved by the grace of God.
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:2)
God says, "Oh, you are doing so much better than everyone else, Tim. I just cannot hold My Spirit back from you any longer"?
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? (Gal 3:3)
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AlyoshaKaramazov
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 49
| Posted 3/30/2003 9:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Pot on wheel and John Earp thanks for your feedback.
Pot on wheel said:
quote:
You seem to already not like the "imputed guilt" that Augustine preached
It's not that I don't like it, I just don't see how it lines up with our God-given moral intuitions.
Quote from "synthetic observations" article:
quote:
Man does not die because he is guilty for the sin of Adam. He becomes a sinner because he is yoked to the power of the devil through death and its consequences.
At this point I'm not so much concerned with why we are sinners, rather, if the sinning is inevitable in life, why are we held accountable for it? We couldn't have not sinned in this life, right?
As for John Earp's comments, why can't we avoid sin without Christ? What I don't get is why I'm held accountable for something I couldn't have avoided. At this point I just am thankful for God's grace in saving me, but my lack of understanding in this area makes it hard for me to realize what exactly I'm being thankful for.
I appreciate your comments and article references.
"Superstition, idolatry, and hypocrisy have ample wages, but truth goes begging."--Martin Luther | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 3/30/2003 10:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
As for John Earp's comments, why can't we avoid sin without Christ?
Hi A.K.,
Once one has sinned, they are held in bondage by it, and cannot, without God's imparted grace (Christ within) be free. Like a man who has fallen into a deep well. He may have gotten himself into the mess, but he cannot deliver himself out of it without the help of another. This I think is the thrust of Christ's statements in John 8:31ff:
John 8:31 ¶ So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, {then} you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34 ¶ Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
A.K.: What I don't get is why I'm held accountable for something I couldn't have avoided.
J.E.: It seems to me that the thrust of Jesus' statements in the above passage as well as Romans 1, 2, & 3 is that mankind's moral depravity is entered into voluntarily by each person through their own sin, and thus they are righteously condemned before the Law of God as a result of their own choice to sin.
The Eastern Orthodox, Finney, Pelagius, and those who most strongly emphasize man's moral responsibility before God view the fall of man as affecting mankind through mortality (which encourages self-seeking) and an aggravated environment beset by sinful examples, which serve as mighty influences towards sinning.
A.K.: At this point I just am thankful for God's grace in saving me, but my lack of understanding in this area makes it hard for me to realize what exactly I'm being thankful for.
J.E.: What it seems to me we should all be thankful for is that God has not just let us all go to hell (for He certainly would have been justified in doing so), and that he loved us before we loved him and sent his Son to save us from our sins (not just hell).
Acts 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one {of you} from your wicked ways."
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 3/30/2003 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
John E: thanks for the excellant points you have brought up. If the church was as serious about sin as it is about "grace," perhaps we could actually change the world, instead of sitting around our sins and thanking God for his "grace."
Thank you for your kind words, honorman. I agree.
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 3/30/2003 11:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Galatians 4:21 responds: "You want to live under the law? Do you not hear what the law is saying?"
You want to relate to God on your own best effort before His commands and demands? Okay, then let me summarize it for you in two words twice. Be holy. Be perfect. How holy? As holy as God. How perfect? As perfect as God. That is the message of the law of God. May I not water it down! May I not make it to be less than it says! Because if I make it to be less than it says, I am not letting it fulfill the work that it is able to do in my live.
The law of God is able to do what it is intended to do. It is not able to do what it was never intended to do.
Hi Tim,
I'm not exactly sure if you're talking to me or not, but here is what I think. I think you pose a false distinction if you are implying that I or anyone else here is saying "let's all place ourselves under the Law" (if by "law" you mean Mosaic law).
The commands you cite, "Be Perfect, and "Be Holy" are New Testament commands to Christians, as in the quote at the end of your posts, "Let every one who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." In other words, discipleship/holiness/sanctification as described in the New Testament is definitely not optional.
These facts of New Testament scripture, in conjunction with Jesus' clear and unmistakeable statement, "If you love me you will keep my commands," as well as His "without Me you can do nothing" make it clear at least to me that what we are talking about is not "my best effort," but rather "my life as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God, which is my reasonable service. And this I submit is only possible due to the saving and sanctifying grace of God working in my life.
And as Paul says, "And working together {with Him,} we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain" 2 Cor. 6:1 NASB. That is, it appears that there is a synergistic relationship between the believer and Christ (like a branch connected to the Vine), though certainly not a synergy of equals at all, but rather a synergy of servant/Master, child/Father, broken human will/all-sufficient divine will, sheep/Shepherd, human spirit/Holy Spirit.
As Hannah Whitall Smith said in _The Christian's Secret of a Happy Life_, "Ours is the willing, His is the working." It is not self-salvation or self-sanctification at all to say we must live holy lives before God; rather, it is our simple yielding to His Spirit's power that enables real holiness to be wrought in us.
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)
revivaltheology.net
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 3/30/2003 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey there John,
Yes, the kingdom of God lives on or by the provisions of God; just as a branch lives on the provision of the life in the vine, so I need the flowing grace of God to flourish in the life I am called to in Christ. And it is humility that opens up the gates of that connection; the branch to the vine of God’s grace is humility.
I know God forgives me for the self-sufficient pride in which I have walked. The modern church needs revival; it needs another reformation: a reformation of humility and a reformation of grace. The reformers of the 16 th century cried out, "Justification by grace!" We need some reformers crying out, "Sanctification by grace!" Praise God for those who died to proclaim that only by grace I am justified. Now, however, the need is as great for some soldiers to stand proclaiming that only by grace are we sanctified. How is the army of God going to move on if not by grace? How are the children of God going to grow up if not by grace?
God is Love,
Tim
2Ti 2:19…Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity... | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 3/30/2003 1:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Imagine a pauper standing in a field of gold coins where a sign says,
"Take all you need—just give the thanks and the glory to the provider."
The pauper, befuddled, stands in the midst of this wondrous field of bounty crying out,
"I’m poor! Help me!"
In spite of the silliness of the picture above, that is the way I behave toward the abundant riches of God’s grace. Though it sounds funny, I still often wonder how do I do faith in your grace anyway God?
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace. (Rom 4:16)
The striving of my flesh—whether to be great and mighty or to live up to the standards of God—never has went with the grace of God. Believing God fit the grace of God for me, it went together hand-in-glove, faith and grace. Drawing on the grace of God and living by the grace of God involves my learning, day by day, to trust God in whatever is at hand, to work in and through my life by the resources and impact of His grace upon me. Grace is God’s provision, and faith is my response, "I’m poor! Help me!"
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 3/30/2003 2:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Humility says, "I need help."
Faith says, "I can trust God for that help."
Humility says, "I need what You have, Lord."
Faith says, "I trust that what You have can be my portion and that what You offer is fully sufficient for my need."
Humility says, "I cannot."
Faith says, "He shall!"
The question is, "What can I do?" (Jhn 6:28)
The answer is, "Who should you believe?" (Jhn 6:29)
The question is, "How are we Saved?"
The answer is, "We are saved by grace, not by works."
However, I am saved for good works and God already has them ready for me, if I should just walk by faith in them. If in humble dependence, I walk with the Lord in this life of grace, I will be walking in the good works that God has before prepared for me. The good works are there to be taken a hold of by me, in faith by grace; I do not have to imagine them; I do not have to create them for myself; I do not have to form, or shape them in anyway. I merely live by faith and in so doing; I will naturally walk in them.
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. (2Cr 9:8)
God is Love,
Tim
2Ti 2:19…Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity... | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/30/2003 5:56 PM (GMT -6) | | AlyoshaKaramazov: At this point I'm not so much concerned with why we are sinners, rather, if the sinning is inevitable in life, why are we held accountable for it? We couldn't have not sinned in this life, right?
PoW: I think that you missed what I said. Can you read it again?
You said: sinning is inevitable in life...
Lets look at that. I'd respond by reminding us that sin is not "natural." The fall did not change the "nature" of our human nature. But it did tarnish us, as a race. Through sin WE became "un-natural." And our very nature became in need of healing. Confusing? If we slip in our thinking and begin to accept the fallen-nature as being "natural" then we are off base. But even fallen, even not living up to our created nature, that "nature" does not change from what it was spoken into begin to be. So, "no," sin is not "inevitable in life." Rather, sin is "inevitable" in death.
You also asked: "why are we held accountable for it?" Why? I'm hoping that you noticed that I dismissed the "imputted guilt" brand of accoutability. (Did you notice that?) The "wage" of sin is death. That death is not the result of opinion, judicial arguement, or "clerical accounting." What we are "held" to is reality. The reality of sin, its effects (death), and the effects of that effect (more sin and more death).
If we whine about that.....then we just don't face reality.
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 03/30/2003 10:57:55 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/3/2003 6:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc said: In some ways this discussion is striking me as odd. We're arguing about whether its possible for someone to live sinless in this life, though we grant, I think, that none of us do.
John replies: As I do not possess omniscience I do not assume no one does by the power of Christ's Spirit within rise above sinning. The numerous Bible passages I have previously cited which specifically state to Christians "sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but grace," and "shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!", give me pause to consider that at least God does not view this as an impossibility, or else his Word is flatly self-contradictory. (Just didn't want anyone to misunderstand me as agreeing with Doc on the quote above).
G.B.: Isn't this wierd? I totally understand and am sympathetic to John's worry over people doing the "I can't help it" deal. But still.... its strange.
J.E.: Perhaps it seems strange because so few people today even worry about it.
G.B.: It feels to me like the texture of the discussion changes if we construe the issue in terms of love. All holiness is a manifestation of love, as the Wesley, Finney -- and the New Testament -- teaches. The "bullseye" of life is loving like God loves -- participating in and reflecting God's perfect, eternal, triune love.
J.E.: Yes, definitely! As 1 John says unambiguously, he that abides in love abides in God, and God in him, and he that abides in God does not sin. That is, so long as a person is abiding in love and in God, they are by definition not sinning. If they sin, they must return to love through repentance, or else they are by definition no longer abiding in him.
I find the following quote helpful from Finney's sermon entitled, "Love the Whole of Religion": (Please note the distinction Finney makes between love as an affection/act of the will and love as an emotion. This is what I was trying to say a few pages back about emotions being involuntary and thus not moral per se).
quote:
2. Love may exist either as an affection or as an emotion.
When love is an affection, it is voluntary, or consists in the act of the will. When it is an emotion, it is involuntary. What we call feelings, or emotions, are involuntary. They are not directly dependent on the will, or controlled by a direct act of will. The virtue of love is mostly when it is in the form of an affection. The happiness of love is mostly when it is in the form of an emotion. If the affection of love be very strong, it produces a high degree of happiness, but the emotion of holy love is happiness itself.
I said that the emotion of love is involuntary. I do not mean that the will has nothing to do with it, but that it is not the result of a mere or direct act of the will. No man can exercise the emotion of love by merely willing it. And the emotion may often exist in spite of the will. Individuals often feel emotions rising in their minds, which they know to be improper, and try by direct efforts of will to banish them from their minds; and finding that impossible, therefore conclude that they have no control of these emotions. But they may always be controlled by the will in an indirect way. The mind can bring up any class of emotions it chooses, by directing the attention sufficiently to the proper object. They will be certain to rise in proportion as the attention is fixed, provided the will is right in regard to the object of attention. So of those emotions which are improper or disagreeable; the mind may be rid of them, by turning the attention entirely away from the object, and not suffering the thoughts to dwell on it.
quote:
II. I am to show that, love is the whole of religion.
In other words, all that is required of man by God consists in love, in various modifications and results. Love is the sum total of all.
1. The first proof I shall offer is, that the sentiment is taught in the text, and many other passages of scripture.
The scriptures fully teach, that love is the sum total of all the requirements, both of the law and gospel. Our Savior declares that the great command, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength, and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum total of all the law and the prophets, or implies and includes all that the whole scriptures, the law and the gospel require.
2. God is love, and to love is to be like God, and to be perfect in love is to be perfect as God is perfect.
All God's moral attributes consist in love, acting under certain circumstances and for certain ends. God's justice in punishing the wicked, his anger at sin, and the like, are only exercises of his love to the general happiness of his kingdom. So it is in man. All that is good in man is some modification of love. Hatred to sin, is only love to virtue acting itself out in opposing whatever is opposed to virtue. So true faith implies and includes love, and faith which has no love in it, or that does not work by love, is no part of religion. The faith that belongs to religion is an affectionate confidence in God. There is a kind of faith in God, which has no love in it. The devil has that kind of faith. The convicted sinner has it. But there is no religion in it. Faith might rise even to the faith of miracles, and yet if there is no love in it, it amounts to nothing. The apostle Paul, in the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians, says, "Though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
Just so it is with repentance. The repentance that does not include love is not "repentance towards God." True repentance implies obedience to the law of love, and consequent opposition to sin.
III. I will mention some things that are not essential to perfect love.
1. The highest degree of emotion is not essential to perfect love.
It is manifest that the Lord Jesus Christ very seldom had the highest degree of emotion of love, and yet he always had perfect love. He generally manifested very little emotion, or excitement. Excitement is always proportioned to the strength of the emotions as it consists in them. The Savior seemed generally remarkably calm. Sometimes his indignation was strong, or his grief for the hardness of men's hearts; and sometimes we read that he rejoiced in spirit. But he was commonly calm, and manifested no high degree of emotion. And it is plainly not essential to perfect love, that the emotion of love should exist in a high degree.
2. Perfect love does not exclude the idea of increase in love, or growth in grace.
I suppose the growth of the mind in knowledge, to all eternity, naturally implies growth in love to all eternity. The Lord Jesus Christ, in his human nature, grew in stature, and in favor with God and man. Doubtless, as a child, he grew in knowledge, and as he grew in knowledge, he grew in love towards God, as well as in favor with God. His love was perfect when he was a child, but it was greater when he became a man. As a human being, he probably always continued to increase in love to God, as long as he lived. From the nature of mind, we see that it may be so with all the saints in glory, that their love will increase to all eternity, and yet it is always perfect love.
3. It is not essential to perfect love, that love should always be exercised towards all individuals alike.
We cannot think of all individuals at once. You cannot even think of every individual of your acquaintance at once. The degree of love towards an individual depends on the fact that the individual is present to the thoughts.
4. It is not essential to perfect love, that there should be the same degree of the spirit of prayer for every individual, or for the same individual at all times.
The spirit of prayer is not always essential to pure and perfect love. The saints in heaven have pure and perfect love for all beings, yet we know not that they have the spirit of prayer for any. You may love any individual with a very strong degree of love, and yet not have the spirit of prayer for that individual. That is, the Spirit of God may not lead you to pray for the salvation of that individual. You do not pray for the wicked in hell. The spirit of prayer depends on the influences of the Holy Ghost, leading the mind to pray for things agreeable to the will of God. You cannot pray in the Spirit, with the same degree of fervor and faith for all mankind. Jesus Christ said expressly, he did not pray for all mankind: "I pray not for the world." Here has been a great mistake in regard to the spirit of prayer. Some suppose that Christians have not done all their duty, if they have not prayed in faith for every individual, as long as there is a sinner on earth. Then Jesus Christ never did all his duty, for he never did this. God has never told us he will save all mankind, and never gave us any reason to believe he will do it. How then can we pray in faith for the salvation of all? What has that faith to rest on?
5. Perfect love is not inconsistent with those feelings of languor or constitutional debility, which are the necessary consequence of exhaustion or ill health.
We are so constituted, that excitement naturally and necessarily exhausts our powers. But love may be perfect, notwithstanding. Though one may feel more like lying down and sleeping, than he does like praying, yet his love may be perfect. The Lord Jesus Christ often felt this weariness and exhaustion, when the spirit was still willing, but the flesh was weak.
Entire lecture may be viewed at:
http://www.gospeltruth.net/1837LTPC/ltpc12_love_whole_religon.htm
Okay, I'm done for now.
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 04/04/2003 12:05:27 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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