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Curious
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 8

Posted 6/28/2002 4:16 AM (GMT -6)

I've recently come across a passage of 1 John that has intrigued me, but also raised some questions. Specifically, 1 John 5:16-17 states:

"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."

Basically, what I get from this passage is that there are two types of sin, even for the Christians to whom John is writing. One of these sins leads to death, whereas the other does not. What does everybody think of this? It makes me think about the distinction that some make between what has been called "mortal" and "venial" sins, the former of which may result in a loss of sanctifying grace, whereas the latter may not. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 6/29/2002 10:47 AM (GMT -6)

I believe there can always be confidence in prayer, because prayer’s purpose is the power of prayer, seeking God’s will, His agenda. It is easy to have a concern about my own will only, instead of God’s, and to think also, that God can accomplish His will with or without me praying. However, God wants me to know His will, through His Written Word, and to pray His known will into action. God’s own reasons or will for me, are often a held back desire by Him, until I partner with Him in prayer to see those things done; I can pray knowing that my prayers mean something. When I am asking for or in God's will - when I am praying the promises of God - I know that I have the petitions, that I have asked of Him, that I can pray with real and definite faith.

I believe prayer is much more than casting wishes into the air; it is understanding God’s will and promises according to His Word, and praying those promises into action. I should be able to ask, "what possible reason do I have for believing, God will answer my prayers?" and be able to answer that question from His Word. It is not wrong to ask for something that God has not promised; although, I need to realize I am not coming to God on the basis of a specific promise from His Word.

When I see another Christian in sin, all too often, prayer is the last thing I do and it should be the first thing I do for them. God will bless my prayer, made on behalf of a brother or sister in sin; it has a special power before God, because it is a prayer in fulfillment of the command to love the brethren.

However, what does John mean by "sin leading to death"? Because he speaks in the context of a believer, it might be wrong to see him meaning a sin leading to spiritual death, he probably means a sin leading to the physical death of the believer. In 1 Corinthians 11:27-30, Paul says, because of their disgraceful conduct at the Lord's Supper, some had died (many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep) - not as a condemning judgment, but as a corrective judgment. Nevertheless, when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world, 1 Corinthians 11:32. Apparently, in this case, God believed it best to bring them home, because they compromised their testimony so significantly, they should come home. However, it would be presumptuous to think this, in every case, of the untimely death of a believer, or to use it as an enticement to suicide, for a guilt-ridden Christian.

Therefore, I believe when a Christian is being corrected in regard to a sin leading to death, there is no point in praying for his recovery or restoration - the situation is in God's hands alone.

Some believe brother is used in a very loose sense, and what John meant, is that the sin leading to death, is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the willful rejection of Jesus Christ. John recognizes that not every sin leads to death, in the manner he speaks of, though all sin is certainly unrighteousness.

In knowing who I am and who my enemies are in the battle against sin; it is essential that I keep my mind set, on who I am in Jesus Christ. If I am born of Him, I have the resources to be free from habitual sin. If I am born of Him, I have protection against the wicked one, protection that does not belong to those who are not born of Him - knowing this, gives me confidence in spiritual warfare.

In verse 18; what John is probably saying, is that He who has been born of God (that is, Jesus Christ) keeps him (that is, the believer); John is telling us that we are kept by Jesus and protected from Satan by Him. In fact, the word touch has the idea of, to attach oneself to; John is clearly saying that the wicked one - or, by implication - cannot attach himself to the one born of God.

The only other place John uses this particular verb for touch is in John 20:17, where He literally tells Mary to stop clinging to Me.

God’s Love,

Tim

markus
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100

Posted 7/1/2002 3:21 AM (GMT -6)

I have rarely read such a wonderful description of the purpose and power of prayer as that given by Tim above. I HAVE to repeat it here:

quote:

....It is easy to have a concern about my own will only, instead of God’s, and to think also, that God can accomplish His will with or without me praying. However, God wants me to know His will, through His Written Word, and to pray His known will into action. God’s own reasons or will for me, are often a held back desire by Him, until I partner with Him in prayer to see those things done...

I believe prayer is much more than casting wishes into the air; it is understanding God’s will and promises according to His Word, and praying those promises into action. I should be able to ask, "what possible reason do I have for believing, God will answer my prayers?" and be able to answer that question from His Word...

When I see another Christian in sin, all too often, prayer is the last thing I do and it should be the first thing I do for them. God will bless my prayer, made on behalf of a brother or sister in sin; it has a special power before God, because it is a prayer in fulfillment of the command to love the brethren.

I have often felt that there is ultimately only one prayer, i.e. that God's will be done. But that is only the umbrella under which a multitude of miniscule events take place (or don't) every day in everyone's lives.

Just to pray for God's will to be done is again like declining one's own labour in carrying out the work that needs doing. If prayer is on too general a level, then it is impossible to perceive the specific answers.

We need to both ask and listen in concrete terms.

...but as to the issue raised concerning I John 5: 15-17. This is an interesting question, and has a number of interpretations.

At the moment, my own tendency is to divide this into two questions:

1) what is sin leading to death?
2) what does "I am not saying that he should pray about that" actually mean?

To the first question, I am inclined to think this refers to people who commit blasphemy towards the Holy Spirit and are in complete apostasy from their faith. In other words, brothers who have known faith and yet turn their backs on God and knowingly walk away and who, for example, in their wake try to dissuade others from worshipping God. This is different to an atheist defending his view of a Godless universe, it is a person deliberately and knowingly working against God and the Holy Spirit that they have previously witnessed.

To the second question, I don't think this necessarily means one should not pray for them at all (as a kind of order), rather that there is no promise that prayer can be of any use in such circumstances, for unless this person turns and repents, they are separated from God and destined to death.

But this is just a personal view, I am sure there are many others!!

But, I am sure there is no harm in praying for anything or anyone, so I wouldn't suggest anyone should try to work out who to actually avoid praying for.

Markus

Edited by - markus on 07/01/2002 08:24:08 AM

Edited by - markus on 07/01/2002 08:25:01 AM

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 7/1/2002 4:50 AM (GMT -6)

Tim says:

quote:
. If I am born of Him, I have the resources to be free from habitual sin.

Tim,

Why single out habitual sin? Why not all sin?

peace and love, don

"It's time to wipe the tears from our eyes time to stop questioning why, 'cos every clipped birds gonna fly the Healing has begun" T.S Taylor

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 7/1/2002 5:56 AM (GMT -6)

Don hates being singled out, you know.

Since every sin we want to have forgiven is forgiven, I've always interpreted the "sin unto death" as a sin that prevents one from wanting forgiveness. I've always associated that with the "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" spoken by Jesus. Its irrevocable hardness of heart where a person is too far gone to ever turn back. Its the point at which God gives up on a person (Rom. 1 "God gave them over..."). But I have to confess that Tim's interpretaton is interesting.

Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 7/1/2002 2:54 PM (GMT -6)

might-be-don: Why single out habitual sin? Why not all sin?

TIM: If a Christian lives a life of sin, because, "where sin abounded, grace abounded much more", saying to themselves, "I love to sin, and God loves to forgive - what a perfect arrangement!" Then it should be said to them, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound", where Paul is clearly talking about the practice of habitual sin, that is, "continue in sin".

However, if the old man in me is dead, then where does the desire to sin come from within me? From my flesh, a moral neutral in and of itself, which is distinct from the old man. That is, my flesh was trained in sinful habits by my old man, the world, and the devil and desires to practice sin.

‘Reckon’ is an accounting word; Paul is telling us to account or to reckon the old man as forever dead, "Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin". "Reckon yourselves to be...alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord" - death to sin is only one side of the equation; the old man is gone, but the new man lives on. "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body" - something that can only be said to the Christian, to the one who has had the old man crucified with Christ and has been given a new man in Jesus.

The unconverted person is free to sin, however, they are not free to be righteous, because of the tyranny of the old man. In Christ, I am truly set free and offered the opportunity to obey the natural inclination of the new man - which wants to please God and honor Him.

"Now is I free, or been I not? When I go to my old master he says I ain't free, and when I go to my own people they say I is, and I don't know whether I'm free or not. Some people told me that Abraham Lincoln signed a proclamation, but master says he didn't; he didn't have any right to."

God’s Love,

Tim

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 7/1/2002 3:16 PM (GMT -6)

timlings
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130

Posted 7/2/2002 1:14 PM (GMT -6)

Hmmm, it is a bit of a tricky one.

Maybe the 'sin that leads to death' is actually what it says. There are several examples in the bible where people have done something wrong and have died! Like the guy who reached out and caught the ark of the covenant but was struck dead. Or the guys in Acts who were struck dead for lying to the Apostles and to the Holy Spirit. Well, that's the two I'm thinking of.

It doesn't mean that those people aren't saved, or they won't get to heaven. It just means that their sin caused them to die. I don't know what the application of that is now...but I suspect that in times of revival, when God's Spirit is moving powerfully, there are probably recorded cases of Christians dying due to some sin or another [like in the Bible]. Just a though though.

Any takers?

Lots of love

Tim

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