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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/22/2002 8:27 PM (GMT -6) |   | Best movie ever made: The Matrix. I've seen it 5 times, and each time I get new insights from it. Most significantly, I see "the matrix" as a perfect metaphor for what Paul expresses with his concept of "the pattern of this world" (Rom. 12:2). We are all "locked" inside a prison of neuro-nets that operate on auto-pilot according to messages that have been encoded into it. And we DID NOT CHOOSE these messages. They were, at least for the most part, chosen FOR us. Our experiences, upbringing, culture, etc... program us to respond to stimuli in certain ways. And, so long as these neuro-nets are left unchecked -- until we "wake up" -- we continue to think that our RESPONSE to stimuli is caused BY the stimuli. We think our MAP (matrix of neuro-nets) IS the TERRITORY (the world). We interpret the world, and ourselves, according to a map we inherited, encoded into our brains.
Transformation, I believe, is most fundamentally a matter of "waking up to reality." To realize that "the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers" (2 Cor 4:4), to realize we've been decieved. The process of sanctification is "taking the red pill" and coming to see the world AS IT REALLY IS -- viz. as GOD defines it.
This movie is PACKED with philosophical motifs (Plato's allegory of the cave), Christian symoblism (Trinity, resurrection, "Anderson" as saviour etc.) as well as other religious motifs (Buddhism... there is no spoon, gnosticism... waking up from a dream, etc.).
I'd like to open up this thread for comments and questions about this profound movie. To start... I think figured out most of the symbols in this movie. But I'm not yet clear why the SHIP the real humans are on is called "The Nebuchadenezzar". Any ideas?
Also, anyone here know its Liscence plate number, and what THAT might refer to. (Its Mark 3 something).
Any takers?
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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| Posted 12/22/2002 8:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey, don't forget to mention that there's a book out titled The Matrix and Philosophy by William Irwin. I bought my son a copy for Christmas and can't wait to read it with him. He LOVES this movie too!
This will be an interesting thread to read on.
trosie
Edited by - trosie on 12/23/2002 01:42:12 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Total Posts : 278
| Posted 12/22/2002 11:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Humor me a bit here; these are some examples that I have pondered on. Have fun. Watch these parts I reference.
Hey, the Mark 3:11 bit was good; it tied together many things for me. The producers, directors, and the like, when they make a movie are the ones who set the delivery time of the actor’s lines… everything is planned out for specific reactions that they are looking for. I will give some examples (I will emphasize by italics).
Handing software over to dude withy white rabbit girl…
Dude: “Halleluiah… you’re my savior man… my own personal Jesus Christ.”
Neo: “If you get caught using that…” (cut off by dude)
Dude: “I know, this never happened, you don’t exist.”
Club scene when first meeting Trinity…
Trinity: “Hello Neo.”
Neo: “How do you know that name?”
Trinity: “I know a lot about you.”
Neo: “Who are you?”
Trinity: “My name is Trinity”
Neo: “Trinity… thee Trinity?… that cracked the IRS D-Base code?”
Trinity: “that was a long time ago.” [2,000 years?]
Neo: “Jesus.”
Trinity: “What?” [Jesus responded]
Neo: “I just thought you were a man.” [all the pictures I’ve seen of Jesus are of a man.]
Trinity: “Most guys do.”
Let me interject at this point and say that this movie is a mix of Christianity and Hinduism. Western New Age to be exact. So as we go on, the Jesus references get turned to Neo as well, but in Eastern thought the divine – Christ consciousness – is in everyone… however, Morphius, Trinity, and Neo do make a trinity. And the three agents make up a false Trinity (a little dispensationalism there for ya’… if you note, when the fade into the numbers at the beginning when the phone is taped as Trinity is talking look as if they are the numbers six on each side of the zero. Six is the number of man of course). By the way, when Neo put the $ into the book at the begging and grabed the software, the books first word is an archaic word and can be found in dictionaries as Simulacra
1. a slight, unreal, or superficial likeness or semblance.
2. an effigy, image, or representation: a simulacrum of Aphrodite.
the crew reminds me of the apostles… Judas Iscariot is even involved, making his deal for stake (30 shekels?), etc., etc. Lets go on.
When sucking out the bug in that bitchin car, Neo asks loudly while facing Trinity (thee Trinity), “JESUS CHRIST! THAT THINGS REAL?” [remember the club scene?]
When Neo takes the pill and is hooked up to the monitoring machine, he goes into arrest. The computer screen locks on to his signal. A bar code appears. Now, this isn’t a real bar code, but its close. And the person who invented the bar code designed a beginning number that is longer than the rest, a center number to tell the scanner it is starting to read another code, and an end number to tell the scanner its done. The persons who made the bar code had the numbers 0-9 to work with, guess what they chose for these beginning, middle, and end numbers? Yep, 666. Lets move on.
When Neo is dumped from the pod and is flushed down the tube into the water, this is his (oh, sorry, His) baptism, there are also a couple of trinities involved here. First the three small lights that zone in on him. Then the mechanical hand (dove), the light from the door (Showing approval), and of course Neo (Jesus).
Morphius tells Neo after he popped – threw up – that the prophesy talked about the original man coming again to save them, (Jesus’ second coming), telling Neo that he believes it has been answered.
The child of Zion talk and the ship being called Nebuchadnezzar, all Biblical terms.
And for a final example before I post the scripture verse. The part where Neo has a drink (wine? where’s the bread?) with Judas Iscariot while checking out the Matrix…
Judas: “good shit, huh?… Dozer made it….”
Judas: “Did he tell you why he did it [remember, second coming] why you’re here?”
Neo: (Shakes head approvingly) [silent before his accusers]
Judas: “Jesus! What a mind job… so you’re here to save the world… what……” [Judas just used a proper name in addressing that same person… Jesus.] Mark 3:11 (KJV)
Mark 3:11 “And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.” That’s Jesus (or Trinity, or Neo) just in case you were wondering.
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1
Edited by - SeanG on 12/23/2002 04:12:10 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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SeanG
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Total Posts : 278
| Posted 12/22/2002 11:19 PM (GMT -6) | | I have to admit Dr. Boyd, after you said – and I quote: “ Best movie ever made: The Matrix. I've seen it 5 times,…” I found myself getting up and grabbing a book of yours to look at the publishers page to see when you were born (1955-). This isn’t a movie I would expect someone who is 48 to enjoy so much, especially an apologetics teacher (still?).
Anyway, I thought you would get a chuckle from that.
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1 | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
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Total Posts : 713
| Posted 12/23/2002 3:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Yep, "The Matrix" rocks,Doc...check it out.
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/phi.html
Holla,
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/23/2002 5:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Like many a good book, it WOULD HAVE been a great movie, had it been edited well. But, alas, like The Abyss (which would have been a great movie had it had a true ending), The Matrix is an overly long attempt at seriousness with little to center it. Besides the special effects, it is weighed down by too many references to religious symbolism and therefore has nothing to truly ground it. The analogy I am thinking of is when my children mix their playdo. I warn them that mixing the colors together will only result in all the colors losing their identity in a boring grey, yet they do it anyway. The Matrix is another example of two directors who have a concept but no direction, throwing in as many "serious" references as possible with a goodly amount of special effects, set the story in the future and get crowned as "deep." The movie had its moments that made it worth seeing, but will it be remebered in ten years when its special effects are outdated? Not likely.
Edited by - honorman on 12/23/2002 10:39:28 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/23/2002 8:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Matrix Rocks!
Can't wait till Spring when Matrix II arrives, then in the Summer when Matrix Reloaded comes.
I'm on this thread. Just let me watch the movie again in a few days to re(fresh)=reload(!) it in my brain again!
Tom
"When you mix things up they get messy" Fred | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/23/2002 3:51 PM (GMT -6) | | * The date given for my birth on Letters From a Skeptic is wrong. I was born in 1957. SEE, I'm YOUNG.
* Why is the room where Neo meets the oracle 313?
* Why the name Nebecunazzar for the ship? (Maybe something about this guy coming out of a dream?)
* Anders is the greek word for humanity. Neo is "Mr. Anderson". Son of man.
* I love the resurrection motif. Trinities love for Neo raises him from the dead. The oracle was right... maybe in the next life.
* The mirror images through the movie are thoroughly buddhist. You find reality by looking in a mirror.
* Any movie that has as many threes in it as this one (and thank you Sean for pointing out a couple I hadn't noticed) has GOT to be great!!!
* I fear MATRIX II. Sequels usually stink, being made just to capitalize on the success of the first movie. And I highly doubt II will add much to the insight of I.
Blessings
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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geebob
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Total Posts : 94
| Posted 12/23/2002 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
* I fear MATRIX II. Sequels usually stink, being made just to capitalize on the success of the first movie. And I highly doubt II will add much to the insight of I.
There's hope. If they made the matrix with sequals in mind, then we should expect more deep quality stuff.
I herre that in the upcoming movies, neo becomes theo.
We all know what the significance of that is don't we?
Theo, is the SON OF COSBY!!
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
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Electra
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Total Posts : 611
| Posted 12/23/2002 6:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc: The mirror images through the movie are thoroughly buddhist. You find reality by looking in a mirror.
Electra: The mirror as a metaphor for indirect knowledge is also prevelant in Greco-Roman thought (cf. Plato’s Timæus, 71B; Philo’s De Decalogo, 105; Philo’s De Specialibus Legibus, 1.2)...and also shows up in Paul (1 Cor. 13:12). Michael Fishbane argues that 1 Cor. 13:12 is actually a midrash on Num. 12:8, which involves a pun on mareh (vision), and mar’ah (mirror) in an article called “Through the Looking Glass.”
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8
Edited by - Electra on 12/23/2002 11:10:13 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 12/23/2002 8:09 PM (GMT -6) | | [
Electra: The mirror as a metaphor for indirect knowledge is also prevelant in Greco-Roman thought (cf. Plato’s Timæus, 71B; Philo’s De Decalogo, 105; Philo’s De Specialibus Legibus, 1.2)...and also shows up in Paul (1 Cor. 13:12). Michael Fishbane argues that 1 Cor. 13:12 is actually a midrash on Num. 12:8, which involves a pun on mareh (vision), and mar’ah (mirror) in an article called “Through the Looking Glass.”
Doc: Dang that girl is well read! (Happens to have a Ph.D. in the use of the mirror metaphor in antiquity.)
And, of course, who could miss the whole theme of Plato's Allegory of the Cave throughout the Matrix.
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/24/2002 3:38 AM (GMT -6) | | I saw the movie also.
I agree with what honorman said: ". . . it is weighed down by too many references to religious symbolism and therefore has nothing to truly ground it. The analogy I am thinking of is when my children mix their playdo. I warn them that mixing the colors together will only result in all the colors losing their identity in a boring grey, yet they do it anyway. The Matrix is another example of two directors who have a concept but no direction, throwing in as many "serious" references as possible with a goodly amount of special effects, set the story in the future and get crowned as "deep."
It isn't enough just to throw in religious language and teasers without them really having much to do with the plot and content. The movie itself was fine--inovative, for sure--but the "extra" stuff just didn't add anything. I mean, really, someone calling themselves Trinity, and Jesus? What purpose did this serve but to try and spiritualize (or something) without achieving the goal? It wasn't spiritual, and it wasn't contributive to the content of the movie. HOWEVER . . . that one could gain insights, ideas and thoughts from it is a whole other ordeal, one I think completely plausible. Twilight Zone and Outer Limits did that a long time ago!
Great movie otherwise!
For the attempt at mixing only to get a blob of blah!
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 12/24/2002 4:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Starky: Twilight Zone and Outer Limits did that a long time ago!
Tom: Twilight Zone! Now yur talking. Now there was the masterful and "intentional" use of cryptic and religous symbols. I totally liked Matrix, but I have to agree also that the symbolism seemed to be inserted without an overarching perspective. Lots of meaningful symbols that mean something taken each by itself but not meaning much taken together. When I first saw it I thought the point was a) to show how dehumanizing technology is becoming and that b) to escape this dehumanizing effect humans a Savior (?).
Tom
"When you mix things up they get messy" Fred | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/24/2002 7:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Just like critics who have to find "some deeper meaning in everything they see," sometimes one should simply accept a movie for what it is, an exciting two hour diversion from life.
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Electra
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| Posted 12/24/2002 7:59 AM (GMT -6) | | My favorite part of the movie is the ending—Neo reenters the Matrix and starts spreading the message. It’s a beginning.
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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| Posted 12/24/2002 8:27 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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SeanG
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| Posted 12/24/2002 7:36 PM (GMT -6) | | After his Resurrection, Neo ascends into heaven!
I never thought of that one!
SeanG!"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1 | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 12/24/2002 9:35 PM (GMT -6) | | For those of you with the obsession, Newsweek cover this week has The Matrix on it...gives a sneak peak on the next two...
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fyodor
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Total Posts : 179
| Posted 12/29/2002 10:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
* Why the name Nebecunazzar for the ship? (Maybe something about this guy coming out of a dream?)
Beyond all Biblical insight, It's just a TOUGH name!!
Since the Matrix came out, I've been trying to talk my wife into Nebuchadnezzar for the name of our first born. Zar for short. Ha!
Nebuchadnezzar seeks the answers to "mysteries" which "only the God in Heaven can reveal." There's something there but, in the end I wonder if there is any significance to the name in the movie.
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 12/30/2002 12:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Fyodor: I wonder if there is any significance to the name in the movie.
Doc: Seems to me the producers were very intentional in weaving religious symbolism into the movie. It may just be that the Nebeccudnezzar ref is just too vague.
Fyodor, I think "zar" would be a cool name.
But remember, kids have to survive Jr. High before making it to adulthood
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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| Posted 12/30/2002 6:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Quoting myself, which seems courageous:
quote:
Nebuchadnezzar seeks the answers to "mysteries" which "only the God in Heaven can reveal." There's something there but, in the end I wonder if there is any significance to the name in the movie.
I should correct myself by saying that even if nothing else, the name reinforces the Biblical symbolism that is threaded throughout the film, undoubtedly there is some significance, even if it is too vague to reference as you suggest.
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fyodor
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| Posted 12/31/2002 9:05 PM (GMT -6) | | some found commentary on the name of Nebuchadnezzar for the ship...
I need to reread Daniel and place Neb. in the timeline before I could comment but here it is...
from: http://www.aish.com/seminars/matrix/the_nebuchadnezzar.htm
quote:
Who was Nebuchadnezzar and why, of all the referrences to him in the bible, why choose Daniel?
Nebuchadnezzar, ruler of the Babylonian Empire, was the epitomy of evil. He would dine on the heart torn from a living rabbit, and it was his army that brutally destroyed Jerusalem, burned the Temple of Solomon, and exiled the surviving remnant of Jews to Babylon.
Yet, in the book of Daniel we get a different view of him. He was given a prophetic dream, that Daniel deciphered, showing all of human history. He went through one of the all time awesome morph scenes, and ultimately, came to acknowledge God's hand in his life and history.
Nebuchadnezzar's rule marked the transition from the biblical period of open miracles and prophecy to a new world where miracles are hidden and decisions are made based on intellect.
Nebuchadnezzar's life traced the path of awareness and awakening, and change. A very appropriate name for a craft whose crew is dedicated to just that, bringing an awakening to mankind.
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/1/2003 3:16 PM (GMT -6) | | Thank you Fyodor. That was very helpful.
Doc
Now the real question: Does the prophecy of "the oracle" mean that the future within, and without, the matrix is settled? As with Scrooge to the Ghost of Christmas future, I ask, does the oracle speak what must be, or what MAY be?
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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| Posted 1/1/2003 5:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Nice! Always working the issue...
I read God of the Possible this morning and didn't think a discussion of the Matrix would be my first application of it. I think that question can only remain philosophical as the Matrix does not claim to have a scripture of its own.
Without reviewing the scene, I think Morpheus says to Neo as they enter the elevator something to the effect that everything she says has come true. By understanding the method you used for discussing scripture I don't think it would "appear" that Morpheus would say something in that situation for appearances, rather the reality is as he says, and should be interpreted as the message that is meant to be conveyed without unneccesary creative interpretation. Perhaps the movie itself could be defined as the scripture and Morpheus could be discussed as the vessel by which the truth was transferred to the viewer. So perhaps, the message of the oracle should be contained within the motif of information that is "partly settled".
The oracle should have been dressed in camel hair and a belt....
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Total Posts : 830
| Posted 1/2/2003 2:52 AM (GMT -6) | | I suppose you could argue that the oracle's prediction could be both, settled and open. Within the matrix, settled ( after all it's only a computer program ) . Outside the matrix, open .
peace and love, don
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