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a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 3/2/2003 7:07 PM (GMT -6)

I've hear atheists ask me what created God? How does one answer this?

Blessings,
Paul

"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects."
~Charles Hartshorne

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 3/2/2003 7:45 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

I've hear atheists ask me what created God? How does one answer this?

Blessings,
Paul

Hi Paul,

If God were created, he would not and could not be God, as there would have to have been one even greater than God to have created God. Christian theology has always held that God alone is uncreated and eternal, with no beginning nor end, and that there can be no being greater than Him. I think the abundant evidence of intelligent design through and in all the universe makes unbelief or disbelief in God a total absurdity.

For some very good and helpful material in witnessing to atheists, skeptics, and the like, Doc's _Letters From a Skeptic_ is definitely one of the best.

In Christ,

John Earp

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 03/03/2003 12:50:30 AM

a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 3/2/2003 8:52 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks, John.

quote:
For some very good and helpful material in witnessing to atheists, skeptics, and the like, Doc's _Letters From a Skeptic_ is definitely one of the best.

I read that a couple years ago--it was my first theology book followed by God of the Possible--, but you can still find people that won't be convinced by his arguments. There are always arguements and then counter arguments, ad infinitum?, debates that will go on and on where no one side will concede to the others point. Blah Blah Blah.

Thanks for the advice. And you are right, God wouldn't be God if he were created, so in God's very being it is necessary that he is eternal and that nothing surpasses him--being created would surpass him. Thanks for expanding my thought process.

Blessings,
Paul

"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects."
~Charles Hartshorne

Edited by - A_Theist on 03/03/2003 01:54:05 AM

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 3/3/2003 2:03 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

I read that a couple years ago--it was my first theology book followed by God of the Possible--, but you can still find people that won't be convinced by his arguments. There are always arguements and then counter arguments, ad infinitum?, debates that will go on and on where no one side will concede to the others point. Blah Blah Blah.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention one thing: Most unbelievers who are adamantly opposed to God actually do know there is a God--they just want to continue to rebel against Him by living their life according to their own wishes. If they truly agreed with what they already know to be true they would be obligated to serve Him. Rom. 1 & 2 talks about how the heathen already know there is a God (both by the revelation of nature and by conscience), but that they "suppress the truth in unrighteousness" And that, I submit, is what they do not want to do, and why they expend so much energy suppressing what they know in their conscience to be true. (We see this same kind of thing in vivid detail on certain threads on this board, don't we)?

And so it may help you to know that the best logical argument may still never win a person's heart to God. This is one of the reasons why as Christians we are to live holy, righteous, prayerful lives--so that they may "see your good works, and glorify the Father in heaven." Few things turn people off from Christianity more than hypocritical Christians.

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 03/10/2003 11:30:36 PM

Alan Rhoda
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680

Posted 3/3/2003 2:42 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
I've hear atheists ask me what created God? How does one answer this?

Remember, Paul, questions have presuppositions, and one legitimate way of responding to a question it to deny its presuppositions. For example, if I asked you "Have you stopped beating your wife?" you might wonder how to respond. If you say "yes" then you admit having beaten your wife. If you say "no" then you admit that you are still doing so. The correct response is to point out that the question presupposes (1) that you have a wife and (2) that at one point you beat her and to deny one or both of those presupposition.

The question "What created God?" can be handled in the same way. The question presupposes that God was created. This is not a problem for theists because we don't accept that presupposition. Indeed, as John pointed out, any created being would ipso facto not be God.

Alan

a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 3/3/2003 3:00 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks!

Blessings,
Paul

"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects."
~Charles Hartshorne

CalvinnHobbes
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88

Posted 3/4/2003 7:16 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
I've hear atheists ask me what created God? How does one answer this?

like this--"WHAT DOES BLUE SMELL LIKE?"

"The longer I live, the more I read, the more patiently I think, and the more anxiously I inquire, the less I seem to know." ~President John Adams

SeanG
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278

Posted 3/4/2003 7:51 PM (GMT -6)

Who Made God?

The main argument I have heard so far is this:

“if everything needs a cause, then so does God, in which case he would not be God. And if God does not need a cause, then neither does the world. But if the world needs no cause then there is no God. Hence, whether everything needs a cause or does not need a cause, there is no God.”

Did I sum up the “gist” of the matter?

The criticism “if everything needs a cause, then there must be an infinite regress” is built on a misconception of the principle of causality. Or better, it is a confusion of the principle of existential causality and the principle of sufficient reason. The latter affirms that everything needs a cause. That it would seem, as atheists observe, leads to a contradiction of God being his own cause.

Aquinas dealt with this long ago. He held that only finite, changing, dependent beings need a cause. This does not lead to a contradictory self-caused being but to a non-contradictory un-caused Being. For if only finite beings need a cause then one arrives at a nonfinite (i.e. infinite) being that does not need a cause. Hence, from Aquinas’ principle of causality the series would legitimately stop at the first, un-caused Cause of all finite beings.

Edited by - SeanG on 03/05/2003 12:58:29 AM

rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 3/5/2003 5:30 AM (GMT -6)

Sean, good post...
A basic point to make could be that unless a person can conceive of something "popping" into existence out of nothing, (really think about what that implies) then something must be eternal. Is it the universe or God? The Kalam cosmological argument as well as Big Bang cosmology points to a definite beginning of the universe.

1.either God or the universe is eternal
2.not the universe (Kalam cosmological arguments)
so...
3.God is eternal, and needs no cause

This is another direction you can take toward this question besides Aquinas'(very good) point that only contingent beings need a cause. Both show that the "who created God" question is not necessary.

Ross

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis

hand_carved
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 111

Posted 3/10/2003 6:54 AM (GMT -6)

Hey guys! I've been away from this site forever, but thought I'd just stop by for a coffee...

RE: "What created God?"

We forget that time itself is relative. It is hard for us to imagine, but has been empirically observed. A stopwatch on the top of a tower actually moves faster than one on the bottom of a tower. Stephen Hawkings suggests that the universe had no "beginning" because in the singularity prior to the "big bang," no time existed. The singularity has been forever. Very hard to conceive.

Well, I don't really buy that the singularity existed forever and had no beginning. It was material, and our natural science tells us that material doesn't just come out of nowhere. If it came from anywhere, it must have been supernaturally created. But if you were talking about something existing forever with no beginning or end that was SUPERnatural (like God), that's a totally different idea. Something SUPERnatural wouldn't have to follow the rules of science. It wouldn't HAVE to come from anywhere because it supercedes our natural laws. I find it much easier and more logical to belive that a SUPERnatural God existed outside the boundaries of time with no beginning and no end than to believe that matter existed forever outside the boundaries of time and space.

Hope that helps!

Blessings...

hc

"I'm beside myself!" C-3PO, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones.

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 3/10/2003 1:09 PM (GMT -6)

Yes. If you go to the "Open Theism" website, they quote Hauerwas and Willimon, in Resident Aliens.

"Much Modern theology presupposes the deistic assumption that the first step is to prove God exists. No, the biblical question is what kind of God exists?"

Which leads me to think of Ray Comfort's book, "God Doesn't Believe in Atheists." Why start out on THEIR playground?

Brandon
"And don't say it's love that broke your heart when you trusted someone. Cause love's the victim, not the crime."--Jody McBrayer, Love Can Break Your Fall www.jodymcbrayer.com

Edited by - BBBCanada on 03/10/2003 6:10:40 PM

fyodor
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179

Posted 3/11/2003 8:49 AM (GMT -6)

Good point BBBCanada, although...
Hanging out at their playground helps get you in so you can bring them over to your own playground....

†††"To have a self, to be a self, is the greatest concession, an infinite concession, given to man, but it is also eternity's claim upon him." – S. Kierkegaard

fyodor
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179

Posted 3/11/2003 9:17 AM (GMT -6)

SeanG
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278

Posted 3/11/2003 1:27 PM (GMT -6)

Hand_Carved,

I love your point about time; this is what the basis for a newer theory in the age of the universe. If all the galaxies are on a bubble (like the big-bang theory proposes), and the earth is in a gravitational “dimple,” so to speak, the stars and galaxies on the edge of the dimple would be millions of years older than the earth - that is in the dimple. Anyways, not wanting to discuss this here, I just wanted to share what I thought when you mentioned the time bit.

Later

SeanG!

"I quote others only the better to express myself."

Michel de Montaigne

Edited by - SeanG on 03/11/2003 6:28:34 PM

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 3/21/2003 4:40 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

We forget that time itself is relative.

Time may be relative but cause and effect aren't.

cause --> effect and any other ordering is not logical

_________________________
1 + 1 = 3 for large values of 1

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