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Questioning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37
| Posted 6/24/2002 2:30 PM (GMT -6) |   | 14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
A friend of mine is trying to tell me that a natural man is one who does not know Christ as saviour. The only way they can come to Christ is through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit only illuminates individuals at conversion. Once you have been illuminated you have been converted. So much for then individual's will. My friend is reading it from a Calvinistic perspective.
Does anyone have another view on I Cor 14?
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 6/25/2002 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey kcy1998,
Always best to look at the context.
The context here is Paul's source of knowledge: the Spirit (note 2:6-7.
If you were going to try and interpret 2:14 as regarding a saved person, you'd have to interpret "The man without the Spirit" as being a Christian who has the Spirit but isn't receiving his/her information from the Spirit AND thinks such wisdom to be foolish. But this flys in the face of the verse's plain meaning: one who has not the Spirit thinks the wisdom of the Spirit is foolish.
Additionally, the context supports that contrast of those who aren't
Christ's who thus believe God's wisdom to be foolish verses those who are Christ's and have understanding of the Spirit's wisdom.
Clearly, in my opinion at least, the verse is clearly addressing the unsaved.
Hope this helps,
Starkman
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Questioning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37
| Posted 6/25/2002 4:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hey kcy1998,
Always best to look at the context.
The context here is Paul's source of knowledge: the Spirit (note 2:6-7.
If you were going to try and interpret 2:14 as regarding a saved person, you'd have to interpret "The man without the Spirit" as being a Christian who has the Spirit but isn't receiving his/her information from the Spirit AND thinks such wisdom to be foolish. But this flys in the face of the verse's plain meaning: one who has not the Spirit thinks the wisdom of the Spirit is foolish.
Additionally, the context supports that contrast of those who aren't
Christ's who thus believe God's wisdom to be foolish verses those who are Christ's and have understanding of the Spirit's wisdom.
Clearly, in my opinion at least, the verse is clearly addressing the unsaved.
Hope this helps,
Starkman
Starkman,
Thanks for the response. Let me know if I am reading your take on 2:14 correctly. You view the natural man as an unsaved person. I understand where your comming from. The confusing part, for me, is "...he cannot understand them because they are spiritually appraised". Please follow me on this one. The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God. The text is straight forward about this point. Here is the $64,000 question. How does the natural man come to understand the things of the Spirit of God? Does the Spirit illuminate the natural man who then believes? If this is the case then isn't this "Irresitable Grace"?
Let me know if I am totally out in left field on this one.
kcy1998
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/25/2002 5:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
How does the natural man come to understand the things of the Spirit of God? Does the Spirit illuminate the natural man who then believes? If this is the case then isn't this "Irresitable Grace"?
"His heart is darkened."
quote:
Romans 1:21
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
It needs to be "illumined."
quote:
Ephesians 1:18
I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
The Church used terms like "illumination" for centuries before the Protestant Chruch was born. So, I don't think that you even have to go near Calvin, or Arminus.
Here is a further text, along the same theme...but developing it further:
quote:
Hebrews 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
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Questioning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 37
| Posted 6/29/2002 3:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
How does the natural man come to understand the things of the Spirit of God? Does the Spirit illuminate the natural man who then believes? If this is the case then isn't this "Irresitable Grace"?
"His heart is darkened."
quote:
Romans 1:21
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
It needs to be "illumined."
quote:
Ephesians 1:18
I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
The Church used terms like "illumination" for centuries before the Protestant Chruch was born. So, I don't think that you even have to go near Calvin, or Arminus.
Here is a further text, along the same theme...but developing it further:
quote:
Hebrews 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
POW,
Are you stating that everyone is enlightened but everyone has a choice to make regarding accepting or rejecting Christ? My friend believes that the Holy Spirit convicts everyone of their sin but only illuminates those who are chosen to be "saved"? If I understand your position it is that there is not a distinction between the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and also performing a second work of illuminating someone to see the need for salvation. Let me know if my understanding is correct.
Thanks,
kc
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/29/2002 5:45 PM (GMT -6) | | kc,
Shame on me for beginning a sketch and not painting it in.
I was just nudging attention in the direction of the words "darkened" and "illumined."
I also added the verses from Hebrews 6 because they give me the shutters a little bit; and it seemed healthy to do a little shuttering now and then -- at least for me.
So, friend (and sorry to disappoint) I actually am not sure that I had a point, or a position.
But there are those who do. So I'll recommend reading what the (Eastern) Church Fathers had to say about a "darkened nous" and "enlightenment." The later is another term given to baptism, as the ceremony always also included chrismation with oil in the bestowal of the Holy Spirit.
Glad to see you thinking. I hope to have nudged it a bit in a particular direction. But you will have to go there on your own.
(Late, and my wife has gone up ahead of me.)
-------------(some unorganized scripture verses kind-of on topic)------------
The Apostle Paul urges: "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2. 5).
The blood of Christ shall "purge your conscience from dead works" (Heb.9,14).
"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2Cor.,7,1).
"Love one another fervently with a pure heart" (1 Pet.1,22).
"if therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"(Mat. 6,23).
"professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things" (Rom. 1,22-23).
"Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also" (Math. 23,26).
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man" (1 Cor. 2, 14-15).
"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" (1 Cor. 3, 1-3).
"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" (Rom. 8, 12-16).
"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God" (Matt. 5, 8).
"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God" (Rom. 2, 5)
"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith" (Eph. 3, 17)
"And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us" (Rom. 5, 5)
Again, these are just thrown out there......sorry.
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