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Aside from giving glory and thanks to God, why do Calvinists pray? Do they even believe in the notion of petitionary or supplicatory prayer?

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What I've often been told is that "prayer doesn't change God, prayer changes us". A psychosomatic exercise.

Jesus had a different perspective:

Luke 18
1 Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart,
2 saying, "In a certain city there was a judge who did not fear God and did not respect man.
3 "There was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him, saying, 'Give me legal protection from my opponent.'
4 "For a while he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, 'Even though I do not fear God nor respect man,
5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will give her legal protection, otherwise by continually coming she will wear me out.'"
6 And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge said;
7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"





Even though the skies are blue, don't they let the sunshine through?

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I am not a Calvinist, but I agree with Christian. The question itself is insulting.

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Again I've never stated that people are not part of the causal chain. In fact, just the opposite. I've argued that we ARE part of the chain- so that we function under the laws of physics just like other animals, objects, etc.
I think you, along w/ a lot of people, think that determinism is incompatible with choice. That's not true at all. Determinism is merely that everything is caused - everything is part of the chain (our choices are caused too)- to have absolute radical freedom of the will, one whould have to be causa sui (cause of oneself), and surely this is impossible.

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Lord's Day 45
Q & A 116 Q. Why do Christians need to pray?

A. Because prayer is the most important part
of the thankfulness God requires of us.^1
And also because God gives his grace and Holy Spirit
only to those who pray continually and groan inwardly,
asking God for these gifts
and thanking him for them.^2

^1 Ps. 50:14-15; 116:12-19; 1 Thess. 5:16-18
^2 Matt. 7:7-8; Luke 11:9-13



Q & A 117 Q. How does God want us to pray
so that he will listen to us?

A. First, we must pray from the heart
to no other than the one true God,
who has revealed himself in his Word,
asking for everything he has commanded us to ask for.^1

Second, we must acknowledge our need and misery,
hiding nothing,
and humble ourselves in his majestic presence.^2

Third, we must rest on this unshakable foundation:
even though we do not deserve it,
God will surely listen to our prayer
because of Christ our Lord.
That is what he promised us in his Word.^3

^1 Ps. 145:18-20; John 4:22-24; Rom. 8:26-27; James 1:5; 1 John 5:14-15
^2 2 Chron. 7:14; Ps. 2:11; 34:18; 62:8; Isa. 66:2; Rev. 4
^3 Dan. 9:17-19; Matt. 7:8; John 14:13-14; 16:23; Rom. 10:13; James 1:6



Q & A 118 Q. What did God command us to pray for?

A. Everything we need, spiritually and physically,^1
as embraced in the prayer
Christ our Lord himself taught us.

^1 James 1:17; Matt. 6:33



Q & A 119 Q. What is this prayer?

A. Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
For yours is the kingdom
and the power
and the glory forever.
Amen.^1*

^1 Matt. 6:9-13; Luke 11:2-4
*Earlier and better manuscripts of Matthew 6 omit the words "For yours is . . . Amen."



Lord's Day 46
Q & A 120 Q. Why did Christ command us
to call God "our Father"?

A. At the very beginning of our prayer
Christ wants to kindle in us
what is basic to our prayer—
the childlike awe and trust
that God through Christ has become
our Father.

Our fathers do not refuse us
the things of this life;
God our Father will even less refuse to give us
what we ask in faith.^1

^1 Matt. 7:9-11; Luke 11:11-13



Q & A 121 Q. Why the words
"in heaven"?

A. These words teach us
not to think of God's heavenly majesty
as something earthly,^1
and to expect everything
for body and soul
from his almighty power.^2

^1 Jer. 23:23-24; Acts 17:24-25
^2 Matt. 6:25-34; Rom. 8:31-32



Lord's Day 47
Q & A 122 Q. What does the first request mean?

A. "Hallowed be your name" means,

Help us to really know you,^1
to bless, worship, and praise you
for all your works
and for all that shines forth from them:
your almighty power, wisdom, kindness,
justice, mercy, and truth.^2

And it means,

Help us to direct all our living—
what we think, say, and do—
so that your name will never be blasphemed because of us
but always honored and praised.^3

^1 Jer. 9:23-24; 31:33-34; Matt. 16:17; John 17:3
^2 Ex. 34:5-8; Ps. 145; Jer. 32:16-20; Luke 1:46-55, 68-75; Rom. 11:33-36
^3 Ps. 115:1; Matt. 5:16



Lord's Day 48
Q & A 123 Q. What does the second request mean?

A. "Your kingdom come" means,
Rule us by your Word and Spirit in such a way
that more and more we submit to you.^1

Keep your church strong, and add to it.^2

Destroy the devil's work;
destroy every force which revolts against you
and every conspiracy against your Word.^3

Do this until your kingdom is so complete and perfect
that in it you are
all in all.^4

^1 Ps. 119:5, 105; 143:10; Matt. 6:33
^2 Ps. 122:6-9; Matt. 16:18; Acts 2:42-47
^3 Rom. 16:20; 1 John 3:8
^4 Rom. 8:22-23; 1 Cor. 15:28; Rev. 22:17, 20



Lord's Day 49
Q & A 124 Q. What does the third request mean?

A. "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" means,

Help us and all people
to reject our own wills
and to obey your will without any back talk.
Your will alone is good.^1

Help us one and all to carry out the work we are called to,^2
as willingly and faithfully as the angels in heaven.^3

^1 Matt. 7:21; 16:24-26; Luke 22:42; Rom. 12:1-2; Tit. 2:11-12
^2 1 Cor. 7:17-24; Eph. 6:5-9
^3 Ps. 103:20-21



Lord's Day 50
Q & A 125 Q. What does the fourth request mean?

A. "Give us today our daily bread" means,

Do take care of all our physical needs^1
so that we come to know
that you are the only source of everything good,^2
and that neither our work and worry
nor your gifts
can do us any good without your blessing.^3

And so help us to give up our trust in creatures
and to put trust in you alone.^4

^1 Ps. 104:27-30; 145:15-16; Matt. 6:25-34
^2 Acts 14:17; 17:25; James 1:17
^3 Deut. 8:3; Ps. 37:16; 127:1-2; 1 Cor. 15:58
^4 Ps. 55:22; 62; 146; Jer. 17:5-8; Heb. 13:5-6



Lord's Day 51
Q & A 126 Q. What does the fifth request mean?

A. "Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors" means,

Because of Christ's blood,
do not hold against us, poor sinners that we are,
any of the sins we do
or the evil that constantly clings to us.^1

Forgive us just as we are fully determined,
as evidence of your grace in us,
to forgive our neighbors.^2

^1 Ps. 51:1-7; 143:2; Rom. 8:1; 1 John 2:1-2
^2 Matt. 6:14-15; 18:21-35



Lord's Day 52
Q & A 127 Q. What does the sixth request mean?

A. "And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one" means,

By ourselves we are too weak
to hold our own even for a moment.^1

And our sworn enemies—
the devil,^2 the world,^3 and our own flesh—^4
never stop attacking us.

And so, Lord,
uphold us and make us strong
with the strength of your Holy Spirit,
so that we may not go down to defeat
in this spiritual struggle,^5
but may firmly resist our enemies
until we finally win the complete victory.^6

^1 Ps. 103:14-16; John 15:1-5
^2 2 Cor. 11:14; Eph. 6:10-13; 1 Pet. 5:8
^3 John 15:18-21
^4 Rom. 7:23; Gal. 5:17
^5 Matt. 10:19-20; 26:41; Mark 13:33; Rom. 5:3-5
^6 1 Cor. 10:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 5:23



Q & A 128 Q. What does your conclusion to this prayer mean?

A. "For yours is the kingdom
and the power
and the glory forever" means,

We have made all these requests of you
because, as our all-powerful king,
you not only want to,
but are able to give us all that is good;^1
and because your holy name,
and not we ourselves,
should receive all the praise, forever.^2

^1 Rom. 10:11-13; 2 Pet. 2:9
^2 Ps. 115:1; John 14:13



Q & A 129 Q. What does that little word "Amen" express?

A. "Amen" means,

This is sure to be!

It is even more sure
that God listens to my prayer,
than that I really desire
what I pray for.^1

^1 Isa. 65:24; 2 Cor. 1:20; 2 Tim. 2:13

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(It is so regretful that Tom makes a one-to-one match between Calvinists (one of which I am not) and Determinists. Perhaps a lot of Calvinists are to a degree deterministic. But, CERTAINLY there are better examples of Determinism, and THOSE are not Christian at all. If I'm wrong on my take on you at this point, Tom, please correct me.

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Oh, I might have a problem with the HC here:

A. "Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors" means: 'Forgive us just as we are fully determined, as evidence of your grace in us, to forgive our neighbors.'

It all depends on what they mean by "fully determined." Fully determined by God, or fully determined by me? I'll assume it's the latter and rejoice with you in this wonderful commentary on the Lord's prayer

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• We pray because we're commanded to.


• We pray to change ourselves (the C.S. Lewis/ Shadowlands view of prayer)


• We pray because it may be God's plan to do work through that prayer. Although, logically, if we didn't pray, that also would be God's plan and so his will would still be done.


• We pray because, despite whatever we might cognitively know as an orthodox view, we live our lives as though our prayers are "heard" in a meaningful sense, as though they might change God's mind, as though spiritual warfare is real and we are participating in it fully--not in a simulacra world of fake combat where none of the battles mean anything.

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what I've been trying to say on this board, albeit, not very clearly :), is that God is a necessary being. God is the first cause. God is the cause of the universe, therefore He is the cause of physical laws. So in that sense, everything is caused by God- he started the causal chain.
in the causal chain, humans, as well as gravitational forces, other physical laws, animals, biological tendencies, man made things, etc., are the causes of everything - ie, every event has a cause. The primary cause of all things would be God, however, the immediate cause of any given event would not necessarily be God. For example, the reason for me to eat a hamburger is caused by hunger and by cultural conditioning. Would a native of India eat a hamburger? I think not, due to their cultural conditioning.
That's all i'm saying. That none of us, as humans, are a cause unto ourselves. No one caused their own existence. This doesn't mean that humans don't have choices. They do, but they are choices which are caused by some motive or another

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Jonathan Edwards would be so proud

3. If we are a part of a causal chain started by God, doesn't this lead to the conclusion that all of reality is God... Isn't that Pantheism???? (I think that Doc has argued this point very well somewhere on the board)

But in all this I have never found someone who lived like this was true, like the frustration that my Calvinist friends have that I don't see that determinism is true, when this is what my "causal chain" has determined me to believe.

Ross





"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid