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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 11/30/2002 5:09 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hello all! It's been quite a while since I've contributed to this board.
I would like some commentary on the following verses:
Luke 24:13-31 describe Jesus appearing to two of Jesus' followers after his resurrection on the road to Emmaus. They don't recognize him until after he breaks bread. Then he immediately disappears.
Many point to this verse as evidence of the importance of the eucharist. Any feedback would be very helpful.
Also, where is this mysterious Emmaus? Its whereabouts appears to be disputed.
I realize this kind of post is rather "uncontroversial" for this discussion board, but any feedback would prove helpful.
Thanks.
--Jewgrass
"[The Messiah] will take upon himself all the guilt of Israel... for on account of their sin he has died." --Moshe Alshekh, 16th century Jewish Rabbi | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 12/1/2002 2:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Nice to have you back Jewgrass.
Don't have much to say about your passage, except that I can't see that we are warranted in drawing too many conclusions about the nature of the Eurcharist from it. The disciples weren't having communion when their eyes were opened. And even if they were, there's a large gap between saying "here's how x happened" and "here's how x should always happen."
Everyone who met the risen Lord had a unique experience. Are we to universalize ANY of these unique experiences and see them as normative?
Blessings
Greg
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 12/3/2002 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm curious to know why you asked about this...
Anyway, my own take on it is that the significance of this passage to the Eucharist is only seen or understood in retrospect, after one has experienced the power of the Eucharist. Being a high-church Anglican, the Eucharist is at the center of my faith and spirituality, so certainly the Emmaus text seems to be illustrative of my own experience of Christ in the "breaking of the bread." I don't feel I ever experienced or knew Jesus until I encountered him in the real presence of his Body and Blood in the sacrament of the Eucharist. I have heard similar accounts from others, but not everyone's experience is the same.
Thanks,
~E
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 12/3/2002 9:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Cool topic Jewgrass. This passage is especially significant for Lutherans because of its combination of Word (Jesus explains to the disciples what the Scriptures have to say about the Messiah's suffering and glory) and Sacrament (Jesus' presence is realized in the breaking of bread).
This passage also seems to be significant to the structure of Luke-Acts:
I. Road from Jerusalem to Emmaus
A. Word: Jesus joins the disciples on their journey and "beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things about himself in all the scriptures" (Luke 24:27)
B. Sacrament: Jesus disappears after breaking bread with the disciples (Luke 24:30).
II. Lukan Great Commission
Jesus appears to the disciples and "opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Messiah is to suffer and to rise from the dead on the third day, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things'" (Luke 24:44-49).
III. Road from Jerusalem to Gaza
A. Word: Philip joins the Ethiopian eunuch on his journey and "starting with this scripture [the eunuch is reading out of the suffering servant hymn in Isaiah], Philip proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus" (Acts 8:35).
B. Sacrament: Philip disappears after baptizing the eunuch (Acts 8:38).
As evangelicals, we emphasize the word and neglect the sacrament. But in Luke and Acts, Jesus is made known in both.
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8
Edited by - Electra on 12/03/2002 2:45:37 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 12/3/2002 10:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Electra,
Thank you for this description of the Word + Sacrament pattern in the Bible! Nice. Early church liturgy was based on the same format, as is most liturgy today (Lutherans, RC, Anglicans, Orthodox), so it's great to have Biblical examples of this order as examples of "meeting and knowing Jesus."
Also, if we broaden our view of the Sacraments to include the minor rites of Reconciliation (confession/penance) and of Unction (healing/anointing the sick) we could draw this pattern out even farther...Jesus' words (Word) are almost always accompanied by a sacramental act of healing or forgiving sins, etc. (Sacrament).
Another place that the Word + Eucharist pattern is visible is in the various feeding stories such as the feeding of the 5,000...such feedings are viewed as having Eucharistic implications in addition to the Emmaus story and Last Supper. I bet we could come up with some more if we looked for it!
Thank you for this!
Peace,
~E
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 12/3/2002 11:05 AM (GMT -6) | | One of my favorite protrayals of the sacraments of eucharist and baptism is 1 Cor. 10, where Paul describes the Israelites wandering in the wilderness as baptized in the sea and the cloud, and as nourished by spiritual food and drinking water from the rock which was Christ. Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 12/3/2002 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Empiress, good point about the minor rites. Speaking of which, Luke seems to portray baptism in the Holy Spirit in the same category as baptism by water. Thoughts? Electra
p.s. Why is it that churches today tend to be either sacramentalist, or pentecostal? Early Christians didn't seem to make such a distinction. I find this interesting.
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/3/2002 11:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Empiress, good point about the minor rites. Speaking of which, Luke seems to portray baptism in the Holy Spirit in the same category as baptism by water. Thoughts? Electra
p.s. Why is it that churches today tend to be either sacramentalist, or pentecostal? Early Christians didn't seem to make such a distinction. I find this interesting.
Who says they are always either/or?
Wanna know about considering them both as part and parcel of one great movement? (Baptism and Chrismation) See these LINKS.
www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Worship/Baptism.html and www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Orthodox-Faith/Worship/Chrismation.html
quote:
In the sacrament of Chrismation we receive "the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit" (See Rom 8, 1 Cor 6, 2 Cor 1:21-22). If baptism is our personal participation in Easter -- the death and resurrection of Christ, then chrismation is our personal participation in Pentecost -- the coming of the Holy Spirit upon us.
The sacrament of chrismation, also called confirmation, is always done in the Orthodox Church together with baptism. Just as Easter has no meaning for the world without Pentecost, so baptism has no meaning for the Christian without chrismation. In this understanding and practice, the Orthodox Church differs from the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches where the two sacraments are often separated and given other interpretations than those found in traditional Orthodoxy.
Chrismation, the gift of the Holy Spirit, is performed in the Orthodox Church by anointing all parts of the person's body with the special oil called holy chrism. This oil, also called myrrh [miron] is prepared by the bishops of the Church on Holy Thursday. It is used in chrismation to show that the gift of the Spirit was originally given to men through the apostles of Christ, whose formal successors in the world are the bishops of the Church (see Acts 8:14; 19:1-7).
In chrismation a person is given the "power from on high" (Acts 1-2), the gift of the Spirit of God, in order to live the new life received in baptism. He is anointed, just as Christ the Messiah is the Anointed One of God. He becomes-as the fathers of the Church dared to put it -- a "christ" together with Jesus. Thus, through chrismation we become a "christ," a son of God, a person upon whom the Holy Spirit dwells, a person in whom the Holy Spirit lives and acts -- as long as we want him and cooperate with his powerful and holy inspiration. Thus, it is only after our chrismation that the baptismal procession is made and that we hear the epistle and the gospel of our salvation and illumination in Christ.
After the baptism and chrismation the person newly-received into God's family is tonsured. The tonsure, which is the cutting of hair from the head in the sign of the cross, is the sign that the person completely offers himself to God -- hair being the symbol of strength (Jud 16:17). Thus, until the fifteenth century the clergy of the Orthodox Church -- the "professional Christians," so to speak -- wore the tonsure all their lives to show that their strength was in God.
Edited by - Al2Si2H4O9 on 12/03/2002 4:50:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/3/2002 5:27 PM (GMT -6) | | My 'Help-Desk' job is done.
quote:
Empiress, good point about the minor rites. Speaking of which, Luke seems to portray baptism in the Holy Spirit in the same category as baptism by water. Thoughts? Electra
Empiress, Electra wants to hear from YOU! | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 12/3/2002 7:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Electra said:
quote:
Empiress, good point about the minor rites. Speaking of which, Luke seems to portray baptism in the Holy Spirit in the same category as baptism by water. Thoughts?
Yeah, that's an interesting point Electra. I don't think I'm qualified to speak to that issue because I believe the Holy Spirit is present at every (water) baptism. Certainly the Spirit can flow more powerfully through a person when they are open to or inviting of the Holy Spirit, but I don't make a distinction between "baptisms." I would say baptism by water, when it is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the only necessary baptism. A "baptism by the Holy Spirit" as it used by many today seems to be merely a description of an increase in the openess a person has to the Holy Spirit. That seems in line with Luke's perspective. You likely know more than me though...what are your thoughts?
quote:
p.s. Why is it that churches today tend to be either sacramentalist, or pentecostal? Early Christians didn't seem to make such a distinction. I find this interesting.
You're right and it's true that churches do tend to align themselves that way, although as Al says, there are some exceptions. I've been a part of some of the Anglican Charismatic and Roman Catholic Charismatic groups and they seem to combine these aspects more than others. I am friends with a lot of folks from the "Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Church" too and I find them to be really refreshing. The Archbishop is a friend of mine and he's a truly wonderful, Spirit filled man. You might be interested to check them out: http://www.theceec.org/index.html
Thanks for the discussion!
Peace,
~Empiress
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 12/3/2002 7:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I don't think I'm qualified to speak to that issue because I believe the Holy Spirit is present at every (water) baptism. Certainly the Spirit can flow more powerfully through a person when they are open to or inviting of the Holy Spirit, but I don't make a distinction between "baptisms." I would say baptism by water, when it is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the only necessary baptism. A "baptism by the Holy Spirit" as it used by many today seems to be merely a description of an increase in the openess a person has to the Holy Spirit. That seems in line with Luke's perspective. You likely know more than me though...what are your thoughts?
I honestly don’t know.
quote:
You're right and it's true that churches do tend to align themselves that way, although as Al says, there are some exceptions.
Right. I didn’t mean to suggest that this is a rigid dichotomy. In fact, I sometimes wonder if my own evangelical context reflects more of a neither/nor than an either/or. I’m interested in a more robust understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit.
quote:
I've been a part of some of the Anglican Charismatic and Roman Catholic Charismatic groups and they seem to combine these aspects more than others. I am friends with a lot of folks from the "Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Church" too and I find them to be really refreshing. The Archbishop is a friend of mine and he's a truly wonderful, Spirit filled man. You might be interested to check them out: http://www.theceec.org/index.html
Thanks for the resources! Sorry my responses are so short. I’m supposed to be doing homework. Peace, Electra
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 12/3/2002 8:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Besides Luke-Acts and 1 Cor. 10, I am very interested in John’s portrayal of the eucharist, especially in John 6. This very long passage begins with Jesus’ feeding of the 5000, and ends with Jesus’ infamous statement that those who want to be his disciples must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Also, unlike the synoptics, John describes Jesus washing the disciples’ feet (his depiction of Jesus here recalls Mary [sister of Martha and Lazarus] as she washed Jesus’ feet at Simon’s home) rather than breaking bread and pouring wine.
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Matt. 10:8 | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 12/3/2002 8:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Electra...are you procrastinating again??? I can't sleep so I'm just browsing.
Blessings,
Shell
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/4/2002 1:54 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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