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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
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| Posted 1/16/2003 3:22 PM (GMT -6) |   | From "Inspiration and Insight - Discourses on the Weekly Parashah by Rabbi Yehudah Zev Segal," by Rabbi Shimon Finkelman, Mesorah Publications, 1990, pp. 284-"When you had plenty of everything, you would not serve God your Lord with happiness and a glad heart. You will therefore serve your enemies when God sends them against you, and it will be in hunger, thirst, nakedness and universal want. [Your enemy] will place an iron yoke on your neck so as to destroy you." (Deuteronomy 28:47-48)
Some people say there is no God because of the Holocaust. These people have never read the Torah. It is obvious that the Holocaust, and the other heartbreaking catastrophes in our history, absolutely DO prove that God exists. God told us right from the beginning that we simply cannot depart from His way without suffering. We have only to open our eyes and look at our own history to see that this is so. The Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis, a survivor of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, once explained it to me this way: We are like a gentle lamb surrounded by vicious wolves. God has the wolves on leashes, and He holds the leashes in His "hand" so that the wolves can't touch us. (I think this is obvious today; the country of Israel is the little lamb and the millions of Arabs who surround us are held back by God. Without this explanation, it defies all logic that Israel exists.) However, if we turn to God and say, "leave us alone; we want nothing to do with you or your mitzvahs" - what can God do? He cannot keep us against our will because He gave us free will. So instead of doing what He wants, i.e., protecting us, he lets us have our own way and He lets go of the leashes. Destruction, torture, and desolation is always the result, because our enemies also have free will. Then we cry out to God to take us back, and He always does.
Anyone care to comment on this? Judaism also teaches that God created Satan and God ordains evil. "God sent the serpent to pull Adam away from Him. He opened Adam's eyes to the opportunity for independence that lies in serving his own wishes and not God's. After he tasted the freedom of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, he was able to exercise free choice at every turn. He was truly 'the image of God'
287): "
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Empiress
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| Posted 1/19/2003 6:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
God told us right from the beginning that we simply cannot depart from His way without suffering.
So evil befalls people because they've sinned? Wow, spoken like a true Job's "comforter."
~E
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SIM
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| Posted 1/20/2003 8:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Empiress: quote:
So evil befalls people because they've sinned? Wow, spoken like a true Job's "comforter."
SIM: Empiress, have you studied the Old Testament? Certainly, God disciplines his own. Certainly, not all suffering is due to God's discipline, as Job's life shows. Why feel you have to negate one for the other?
A high view of God requires that we not limit Him and box Him into our particular view of truth.
I recently finished an indepth study of the books of Moses, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. My view of God's holiness was raised substantially because of this. I would recommend this study if you have never done it.
SIM
"Looking for God--or Heaven--by exploring space is like reading or seeing all Shakespeare's plays in the hope that you will find Shakespeare as one of the characters..."
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a_theist
"Thy will be done."
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286
| Posted 1/20/2003 8:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Taken from Empiress' website:
My educational background includes:
Bachelor of Arts degree in 1995 in Religion and Philosophy
Master of Divnity in 1999
Master of Sacred Theology Candidate
Education
Yeah! I would say she ran across that book a few times or other in that 8-12 year endeavor.
"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man."
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 1/20/2003 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | To Empiress,
I think the point was not that someone can be good and still suffer, e.g. Job. My guess is that a Jewish rabbi would be thoroughly familiar with that story. Nowhere does he say that if you are suffering, you have been evil. He says, if you do evil, then you will suffer. The two are not contradictory.
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SIM
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Total Posts : 90
| Posted 1/20/2003 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank you, A Theist, for the heads up on Empiress' credentials.quote:
Taken from Empiress' website:
My educational background includes:
Bachelor of Arts degree in 1995 in Religion and Philosophy
Master of Divnity in 1999
Master of Sacred Theology Candidate
I was unaware of her background.
However, Matthew 11:25 says that greater learning doesn't always equate with greater wisdom: "At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."
And I believe that a child's faith can sometimes be closer to actual truth than the faith of the highly educated. What kind of person in Jesus' time was attracted to him and accepting of truth and who were repelled? I think that C.S. Lewis said, when describing how spiritual truths are understood, that the simple, direct belief is usually closer to the actual truth than the belief of the scientist who delves into the knowledge of the intricacies of the universe.
SIM
"Looking for God--or Heaven--by exploring space is like reading or seeing all Shakespeare's plays in the hope that you will find Shakespeare as one of the characters..."
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Empiress
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| Posted 1/20/2003 10:25 PM (GMT -6) | | I have to say this: I find it incredibly upsetting that someone would actually suggest, in a public forum no less, that the Jewish Holocaust was brought upon by the Jewish people by their own doing, that it was their own fault and should have been expected because they "departed from God's ways." In all honesty, I probably should have refrained from remarking on such comments at all; they should have remained ignored but I felt something needed to be said.
I believe sincerely that the view expounded here is a very distorted view of God, the holocaust, the problem of evil, and Scripture. (RD, you might try reading Dr. Boyd's books for a different perspective on evil.)
Evil befalls people for many reasons and we are certainly on dangerous ground when we seek to accuse others, let alone an ENTIRE RACE of people as having suffered because of their sin, especially something as evil and satanic as the Holocaust.
The God revealed in Jesus Christ does not ordain such evil ...God does not create holocausts to exterminate people. No, the God revealed in Jesus Christ is willing to give his own life that all may "have life and have it more abundantly."
RD said:I think the point was not that someone can be good and still suffer, e.g. Job. My guess is that a Jewish rabbi would be thoroughly familiar with that story. Nowhere does he say that if you are suffering, you have been evil. He says, if you do evil, then you will suffer. The two are not contradictory.
Not only does the book of Job demonstrate the error in assuming that suffering and evil are the result of sin, Jesus himself makes this point abundantly clear in John 9:1-3:
"As he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him."
Second, this post accuses the Jewish RACE as having done something so evil as to essentially deserve the Holocaust. If that's correct, then Hitler was simply God's instrument in executing judgment. I would be VERY cautious about attributing such evil to the hand of the Lord God.
In my view, the Holocaust was nothing short of demonic and it was perpetrated against the Jews because they are God's own chosen people. Satan hates all God's people and will always target them BECAUSE they are integral to God's plan of salvation for the world, not because of something they did wrong.
Why single out the Jewish people? We know that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and that there is none righteous, no not one. How can we possibly single out the horrific suffering of one group and say it is because of "their sin"??? What about the sin of everyone else and every other nation?
SIM, as to your accusations: I stand guilty as accused and have only the mercy of God to rely on. I am a fool, I am blind, I am a sinner, I fail every day and I must pray continually, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief." My education, my actions, my background, none of them are anything nor do they amount to anything. I stand alone before the throne of God as a criminal who deserves only death and I put all my hopes on the mercy of the Lamb who was slain. That is all I can ever do.
In sadness,
~E
Edited by - Empiress on 01/21/2003 03:37:27 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Total Posts : 655
| Posted 1/21/2003 6:39 AM (GMT -6) | | I guess there are some people who are not familiar with the concept of debate and the marketplace of ideas. I threw out a RABBI's commentary to see what people thought, if people disagreed, if they agreed, what have you. I found his comments interesting. I don't think he was saying, as a jewish man himself, that the Jews were to blame for the Holocaust. I certainly was not saying that.
So are you saying that if I put out a quote from Trent Lott, for example, and ask the Board, what do you guys think? That now I am endorsing Lott, segregation, slavery, etc.? Get a grip and learn how to debate without personal attacks.
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a_theist
"Thy will be done."
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286
| Posted 1/21/2003 6:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Oooh! The attorney is asking you to use logic.
You need to learn how to debate, ~E.
"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man."
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ReasonableDoubt
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Total Posts : 655
| Posted 1/21/2003 6:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Empiress, at the risk of redundancy, I wrote, "Nowhere does he say that if you are suffering, you have been evil. He says, if you do evil, then you will suffer. "
This does NOT mean that suffering is always the result of your evil. What it means is sort of a "be sure your sins will find you out" thing. THat if you ARE evil, you WILL suffer, whether now or in the next life. HOWEVER, suffering is NOT always the result of evil. As Job proves.
I want to be clear in my position. I would be horrified if someone were to think that I believe that if someone is suffering, well, darn it , you can be sure that they are evil.
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SIM
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Total Posts : 90
| Posted 1/21/2003 6:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Empiress said:quote:
My education, my actions, my background, none of them are anything nor do they amount to anything. I stand alone before the throne of God as a criminal who deserves only death and I put all my hopes on the mercy of the Lamb who was slain. That is all I can ever do.
Empiress, I apologize for my carelessly unclear post. You totally misinterpreted it. I respect greatly a person who sacrifices the time, energy, and resources to earn multiple degrees in theology and philosophy as you have. I believe that God desires us to grow in knowledge and truth,and your devotion to increasing your knowledge of God's truth, even from my sketchy information, is to be greatly admired. I am sorry that you saw my position differently from this.
Having said that, it does seem that there is an unwillingness on your part to consider a larger focus about subjects as wide as the presence of evil in this world, and God's role in its presence; AND the value and limitations of formal education. There seems to be a propensity on your part to jump from one extreme to another.
The fact that God DOES discipline His own children is crystal clear from scripture. But, DO NOT JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION that having said that, I am also saying that all evil events, or ANY ONE evil event or suffering, including the Holocaust, is brought on by God's discipline. I BELIEVE THAT WE CANNOT JUDGE WHETHER SUFFERING HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DISCIPLINE OR IS JUST A PART OF FALLENNESS. After all, we are not God. He is the only Person who knows this information. My responsibility, like a good child of God, is to live my life in a way that keeps God from having to discipline me for my choices, as any truly loving parent should do for a beloved child.
For Clarity And Unity's Sake, and Most of All In CHRIST,
SIM
(PS: Please respond if more clarity is needed, for Christians should at the very least be able to agree to disagree.)
"Looking for God--or Heaven--by exploring space is like reading or seeing all Shakespeare's plays in the hope that you will find Shakespeare as one of the characters..."
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Empiress
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| Posted 1/21/2003 8:50 AM (GMT -6) | |
RD said: So are you saying that if I put out a quote from Trent Lott, for example, and ask the Board, what do you guys think? That now I am endorsing Lott, segregation, slavery, etc.? Get a grip and learn how to debate without personal attacks.
RD, a couple of things:
I nowhere said anything about you as a person or the Rabbi, I kept all my "attacks" on the level of ideas and theology and they never became personal so it is an error for you to accuse me of "personal attacks." Please re-read it with that in mind. If something I said in particular upsets you, please quote me directly and explain yourself. At this point you are confusing the huge problem I have with the underlying theology as espoused in the original thread with some kind of personal attack, so please separate the two.
Just to be clear, I believe this theology is extremely problematic for all the reasons I listed. If taken to its logical conclusion then it can be said that the Jews did something evil and therefore the Holocaust occurred to them. If you would like to argue why that is not the logical extension of the original post, then that is what debate is about. Have at it!
Further RD, it would be extremely helpful if you used quotation marks when you post a quote because it was never clear in your original post when you were speaking and when the rabbi was speaking. If you're going to use other people's words, do site and quote appropriately, it lessens the confusion a great deal. I assumed a lot more of that text was yours because there were NO quotation marks blocking the quote or making a clear distinction between your questions and the quote itself. Go back and take a look and please post a new post with the quotes in the right place for clarity. To this point, it is still unclear to me what your ideas are and what the Rabbi's are. Thank you!!
RD said: Empiress, at the risk of redundancy, I wrote, "Nowhere does he say that if you are suffering, you have been evil. He says, if you do evil, then you will suffer. "
This does NOT mean that suffering is always the result of your evil. What it means is sort of a "be sure your sins will find you out" thing. THat if you ARE evil, you WILL suffer, whether now or in the next life. HOWEVER, suffering is NOT always the result of evil. As Job proves.
I want to be clear in my position. I would be horrified if someone were to think that I believe that if someone is suffering, well, darn it , you can be sure that they are evil.
RD, the original post and whoever wrote it clearly implies that the Holocaust and subsequent suffering of the Jewish people was the result of their having "turned away from God." That is what I am responding to and nothing more.
SIM said:
Having said that, it does seem that there is an unwillingness on your part to consider a larger focus about subjects as wide as the presence of evil in this world, and God's role in its presence; AND the value and limitations of formal education. There seems to be a propensity on your part to jump from one extreme to another.
Actually SIM, since you are so very quick to jump to conclusions about me, let me assure you that I have and do desire to discuss wider theological subjects including the presence of evil in this world. Please read the archives of this board and see my hundreds of posts to this end if that would help. While I am quick to explain why I believe the theology espoused in the original post is so problematic, don't jump to the conclusion that that means I maintain some kind of unwillingness to discuss ideas as a whole.
In the terms of religious faith, education really is nothing. Before the throne of God, education does not and cannot mean anything, and I say that in all sincerity. But that doesn't mean that I view my education as worthless in the realm of the practical. I believe it is the responsibility of everyone to be educated because ignorance creates much suffering.
SIM said:
The fact that God DOES discipline His own children is crystal clear from scripture. But, DO NOT JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION that having said that, I am also saying that all evil events, or ANY ONE evil event or suffering, including the Holocaust, is brought on by God's discipline.
Slow waaaaay down here SIM. I agree that God does discipline his own children (and that deserves a thread of its own to flesh out). I am not jumping to any conclusions about what you personally believe nor did I anywhere on this post...I have no idea what you think actually. However, saying that God disciplines his children is NOT the same thing as that the holocaust was the result of the Jews' sin. I nowhere attacked the basic and generic idea that God disciplines his children. I attacked the idea espoused that stated that the Holocaust was the result of the Jew's sin. Do you see the difference?? I'm asking honestly because you seem to be confused about my position.
SIM said:
I BELIEVE THAT WE CANNOT JUDGE WHETHER SUFFERING HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DISCIPLINE OR IS JUST A PART OF FALLENNESS. After all, we are not God. He is the only Person who knows this information. My responsibility, like a good child of God, is to live my life in a way that keeps God from having to discipline me for my choices, as any truly loving parent should do for a beloved child.
It seems we would agree then and therefore you too would find the theology in the original post problematic too. I have a problem with anyone, be they a Jew or a Christian or anyone else, as identifying the reason behind the holocaust as a result of the Jews' sin.
----------------------
Let's try something else here, for clarity sake. My response to the Rabbi's quote:
I find it incredibly promblematic that anyone would suggest that the reason behind the holocaust is because the Jews "turned away from God." How could anyone stand in such judgment of a race of people from the past, be they a Rabbi, a Jew, a Christian, or anyone else? We cannot know anyone else's heart, let alone an entire race from the 1940's. We certainly ought never to suggest something as evil and horrific as the idea that the holocaust is the fault of those who died in it! The Jews are the victims of evil, not the cause behind it. This kind of theology, when drawn out to its logical conclusion, is extremely anti-semitic. If a Christian were to teach such a theology from the pulpit, I believe it would be nothing short of demonic.
Hopin for clarity,
~E
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ReasonableDoubt
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| Posted 1/21/2003 9:19 AM (GMT -6) | | I guess the problem was I had attempted to put quotes around the post, and apparently it did not work. It was not my own words, and since I thought you knew that I think that's where the confusion was.
I understand how you think there are problems with what The Rabbi said. I think he as well as others are trying to reconcile evil with God, and the way he is doing it is to make the analogy to the lambs and wolves, with God ultimately holding back evil, but allowing it to fall where it may, so to speak, when the lambs choose to ignore God's way. In this manner God is not "responsible" for evil, but he IS in control of it. | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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| Posted 1/21/2003 9:52 AM (GMT -6) | | RD:  *lol* Okay, we really did talk past each other on this one! Do you mean to say that the entire post from start to finish was the Rabbi's?? Holey moley confusion!
I would have responded VERY differently if I had understood the whole thing was a quote. Of course, I still stand by my thoughts about why the theology is problematic, but yeah, I would have said it differently.
I think that while I can understand what the Rabbi was trying to say in explaining the problem of evil in terms of the Holocaust, it's a theology that I find very very ugly, and very unlike what I hear in the New Testament and Jesus Christ. In fact, it sounds like theology I've heard used by certain Christian groups in abusive ways. I heard a woman with bulimia told that her bulimia was due to sin in her past. I know of a young man with severe depression who was told that his depression was because he was not "submitted fully to God" and that "this was to be expected." That young man went and shot and killed himself after that. This theology adds suffering to suffering and I believe earnestly that this kind of theology can lead to spiritual abuse, and that is why I am so adament against it. We have to tread very carefully with such concepts.
When we get into the area of the holocaust or the great suffering of any person/group, I think we need to refrain from even suggesting that the suffering could be from evil/sin. The only person we can suggest such an idea to is ourselves...we alone have to judge our own hearts.
Thanks for clarifying,
~E
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/21/2003 9:53 AM (GMT -6) | | I would say, however, that when God condemned the Israelities for their sins and (I believe) 20,000 died, when God judged the Egyptians and the first born died, when Tyre was judged and destroyed because of their sins in Ezekial (the list can go on and on), that each of these groups are a single race and God judged, condemned, and (in some cases) destroyed races entirely. God reserves the right to judge those who are in sin because he is holy.
Empiress, you critises people for doing exactly what you yourself do: know the mind of God.
While Jesus Christ is the ultimate revelation of God, he is not the full revelation of God. What I find very upsetting is when people put words in his mouth, or assume that Jesus would have done something a certain way because they take him in the New Testament as all that God is, or they take him to be a certain way based on a concept of God that is incomplete.
Sweeping the Old Testament under the rug in the name of Jesus does a great disservice to God. Whether we like or don't like how God acted in the Old Testament, it is important to recognize that Jesus Christ shows nothing but allegience to the Old Testament, quoted it as God's words and said he came not to abolish but to fulfill the law. Instead of trying to do away with the Old Testament, we should try and understand what God was doing and trust him for what we don't understand.
Not only does God judge people, but he also condemns people...
A side question: what is sacred theology anyway?
Edited by - honorman on 01/21/2003 2:54:20 PM
Edited by - honorman on 01/21/2003 2:57:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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| Posted 1/21/2003 1:16 PM (GMT -6) | | honorman said:quote:
I would say, however, that when God condemned the Israelities for their sins and (I believe) 20,000 died, when God judged the Egyptians and the first born died, when Tyre was judged and destroyed because of their sins in Ezekial (the list can go on and on), that each of these groups are a single race and God judged, condemned, and (in some cases) destroyed races entirely.
Seems to me at least one MAJOR difference between these Biblibcal stories and the Jewish Holocaust of the 1940's is that one occurs in the Bible and one does not. The OT authors -claim- to have firsthand knowledge from God as to -why- these events happened but we cannot apply the same to the Holocaust. The whole point is that no one is in position to make such judgments about the holocaust.
I'm not interested in getting into the discussion about the OT though, I've already hashed that subject out far too much on this board.
honorman said: quote:
Empiress, you critises people for doing exactly what you yourself do: know the mind of God.
Well, you heard it here first gang, apparently I know the mind of God! w000t!
Actually, my theology won't allow me to believe that because as an apophatic theologian I believe no one can comprehend the nature or mind of God.
quote:
A side question: what is sacred theology anyway?
A Master's in Sacred Theology is a common degree designation called an STM and can be recieved from many seminaries and graduate schools in the US. It is similar to a Master of Divinity but is more focused in a particular area, in my case it is in Anglican Studies.
~E
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honorman
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| Posted 1/22/2003 9:57 AM (GMT -6) | | The point of my comments is not whether or not the Old Testament prophets had first hand knowledge of God or not, nor that one story was in the Bible or not. That isn't even close to what I was saying. The point is that God does judge, does condemn and, upon occasion, does decide to destroy whole civilizations, as is his right as a holy God. I was merely commenting on your unbalanced view of God. As I said before, Jesus Christ is the final revelation of God but he is not the full revelation of God. For God to be fully loving he must be fully holy. Love was, after all, not the only thing Jesus preached on. He talked an awful lot about judgment as well, something not particularly smart for such a "loving" God.
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Empiress
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| Posted 1/22/2003 1:38 PM (GMT -6) | | honorman,
Then you don't seem to understand my point at all. I believe God alone is holy and therefore God -alone- has the right to judge. What I'm wary about isn't God's judgment but people claiming to know what God's judgement is or isn't, particularly when it is against someone other than themselves.
~E
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a_theist
"Thy will be done."
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286
| Posted 1/22/2003 3:11 PM (GMT -6) | | This is off the subject, but I found a site that mentioned something about moses making a prophesy in Deutoronomy 31: 25-29 That said something about the law becoming corrupted; and then in Jeremiah 8:8, which that site says comes 826 years after moses maid this proclomation reads this verse:
Jeremiah 8:8-"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
I am not quite sure if this is true or that the author of the site just read too much into the verses. Here is the site:
Why did the God of Islam allow the "original" bible to get corrupted or lost?
I wonder if this has any truth to it.
Blessings,
Paul
"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man."
-John F. Haught
Edited by - A_Theist on 01/22/2003 8:12:48 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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