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BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 2/14/2003 7:51 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Springs, since this post is not about habitual sins but about homosexuality and whether or not it is a sin, I cannot in good conscience address your question. However, if you start a post which deals with that specific issue, I would be glad to address it.

Thanks for being so conscientious.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 2/14/2003 11:55 AM (GMT -6)

I think, too, something needs to be said here about divorce and remarraige when the divorce wasn't justified.

First, can (and does) God forgive the individuals who have divorced without just (Biblical) cause? Yes. Those individuals may have to suffer a lot--the natural occurances of divorce--in view of whatever the circumstances are that brought about the divorce, but they can be forgiven. Their hearts, as is the case for forgiveness under any circumstance, must be right with God. (By the way, this isn't a heaven or hell issue when we talk about God forgiving here, it's a relationship issue between God and mankind.)

Now, if an individual from an unjustified divorce remarries, can God forgive that person (assuming the person has been or has become aware of the fact that they are outside of the Biblical perameters for remarraige)? Yes. Again, the heart must be right before God. BUT here's the issue I'm after. If God forgives the person who has remarried, is that person still living in sin? No. And this is crucial, in my opinion, as we discuss the issue of whether homosexuality is wrong or not.

Once a person who is unjustly divorced marries again, at that point they have sinned. But, if they repent, the answer (in all cases) is not for them to divorce the associated spouse, unless--and I have first-hand experience of this, though that is not Biblical support for what I'm saying here--God has decided not to bless the second marriage. I don't believe He has to; one is outside of the desired will of God in remarrying. God does not, therefore, have to honor the marraige. (Though I know that there are those who could contend that once the person remarries, it's too late to do anything about it; that one is bound again to the laws of marraige. And perhaps that is so, but it's not my main point.)

If, however, a homosexual couple--which, taking the stance that homosexuality itself is wrong as I do--marries,takes vows, can God forgive leaving the couple be left to continue in their marraige without it being sin? No. Because the very act itself, day in and day out, 24 hours a day, is wrong. Marraige however, is not, except the actual unjust remarraige vow-taking itself. One is not living in sin after that time of repenting before God but staying married. Now, that time of repentance may not come until, say, 1 minute, 1 hour, maybe 2 weeks, maybe (as in my case) 2 years before one's heart is finally delt with about the sin of an improper remarraige. But after it is delt with, it is clean; the spouse who's remarried starts clean. That person is no longer living in sin.

In my case--and again, this is just personal--I remarried (not to my current wife) after an unjust divorce, as well as having compounded the issue by remarring in unjust manner: both she and I were married when we met each other, and how horribly embarrased I still am to have to admit this sin. For two years I struggled with trying to find God's forgiveness in it, because I knew that deep down something wasn't right. "How come others have found peace after repenting, but I cannot?" I would ask God. To make a long story short, I finally broke and could no longer continue in the marraige. (For the first year, she was even having dreams where the content of the dream was "Who really is my husband: her first or me? She was facing off with a lot of guilt herself, because there was no peace.)

I have, however, remarried under proper "procedures" this time--yes, I still had to deal with the fact that I was unjustly divorced, but in this case, God's peace and forgiveness--the opportunity to start over--were afforded me. He didn't have to allow the marraige, but He did and has blessed it. I am bound now to it, and it is certainly not sin to stay in it. But, as I said above, the same could never be said about a homosexual couple who have married to try and make it right before God.

Finally, I want to stress that I am totally from-the-heart of great care about the struggle someone has with homosexuality. Man, my heart goes out for them, and I don't ever want to diminish the difficulty this must present someone as one is trying to find truth in and through it all. I just want to state, though, that the issue of living in a homosexual lifestyle--married or not--can never fall under the same context as a divorcee remarrying.

I hope my heart is clear here for all to understand,

Starkman

Edited by - Starkman on 02/14/2003 4:57:44 PM

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 2/14/2003 2:17 PM (GMT -6)

Paul,

Yes, I did read all of your comments in response to Semeia. And, I have been around this issue with both her and Icon in the past (LEARNED A TON by the way) so I don't have much to say about homosexuality. Sorry. I think both issues are "log" vs. "speck" issues for the person involved. I posted after noticing your EXTENSIVE posts on divorce in order to SHARE another viewpoint. That's all. (I'm assuming you are neither married nor homosexual....so...)

Well, I'm too old to argue and that was never my intention. I just don't have the heart for it. Forgive me for coming across in the wrong way.

Blessings,
love
selah

Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1

Edited by - Selah on 02/14/2003 7:23:03 PM

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 2/14/2003 3:19 PM (GMT -6)

I think it is of utmost importance to the discussion of homosexuality to clearly distinguish between homosexual activity, such as sodomy, and "homosexual tendencies," which are not necessarily in and of themselves sin, any more than having a hetero sex drive is in and of itself sinful.

For an excellent discussion of the issue see:

http://www.abidingtruth.com/simplelogic/simplelogic.html

Contrary to Luther's "legal fiction" of "at the same time a sinner and justified," The following passage makes clear (at least to my mind) that one cannot be a practicing sodomizer (or fornicator, liar, thief, greedy, adulterer, idolator, or a drunkard, etc.) and **at the same time** be considered righteous:

1 Cor. 6:9 Do you not know that wrongdoers (unrighteous) will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Of course, if you believe in the sinning-all-the-time kind of Christianity, the moral force of the above scriptures (and many more) must simply be ignored.

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 02/14/2003 9:51:01 PM

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 2/15/2003 2:13 AM (GMT -6)

The only value in arguing with a true sophist is to hone your debate skills. Usually, however, you will have an audience. In that case, take the opportunity to educate your audience and don't be discouraged that your opponent refuses to see reason.

God is Love,

Tim

1Jo 2:16…the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father…

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 2/15/2003 8:56 AM (GMT -6)

Paul

quote:
what scripture should I use against any "judgemental" christians who might try to discourage these people from their "love."

Going back to the original question presented on this thread I'd like to share what God has been revealing to me.

When we accept Jesus into our lives and repent we are renewed and accepted in. Through the merciful grace of the Holy Spirit we are washed white as snow. HOWEVER, this does not mean that we are instantaneously nor magically transformed from our old patterns and fleshly desires. The act of being transformed takes MUCH time and an open and willing heart to allow God to move us and discipline us.

We each have our own life story and place from whence we've come. God is the ONLY one who knows what motivates and drives us (heck, sometimes we don't even know why we do the things we do ...) therefore God is working with each person on their own separate journey toward transformation IF they are willing. The reason we are told not to judge lest we be judged is because we don't have a clue what the life story is about the other. We don't even know half the time what is driving us!

Here is my point and the lesson I recently learned from the loving discipline of my heavenly Father: I was fasting and praying that God would expose the sin of someone because I believed that this needed to be exposed, since it involved and effected other people. God had a different way of answering that request, however. God had me look in a mirror (so to speak) to point out to me that although this fellow believer had a speck that I noticed, I was creating a log in my own life through this judgmental attitude. You see, I had not fasted and prayed out of a spirit of love for this person but rather out of a spirit of judgment. God said, as I could hear Jesus saying to the Pharisees, "You do not judge nonbelievers because you know their sin is the least of their eternal worries, yet you judge fellow believers so harshly. But just know that if they are truly following after righteousness then I (God) will work on them and woo them in due time." This really had an impact. I hadn't noticed that my need to fast and pray to expose this person's sin was sin itself. I guess anytime we act outside of the act of loving the person right where they are at and trusting God to move and grow them, we are creating a log in our own eye.

We are called to love one another with patience and kindness. We are to enter into the Fruit of the Spirit when interacting with other believers because each person is at a different place along the path.

trosie

a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 2/15/2003 10:33 AM (GMT -6)

Yeah, there is a difference between loving someone and allowing someone go to on remaining in their sin without "lovingly" showing the brother or sister that he or she is in sin as you would "hope" (I know I would) they would do for you.

I've heard Matthew 7 misused by semia, and I think the approach I am taking is different than judging someone else by looking at the "speck" in their eye whilst missing the "log" in my own:

Matthew 7

Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. 2For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?a 4Or how can you say to your neighbor, “Let me take the speck out of your eye,” while the log is in your own eye?b 5You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye.c 6‘Do not give what is holy to dogs; and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under foot and turn and maul you. .

Trosie, If you are judging someone, then I agree that you should take the log out of your own eye before pulling the speck out of your brothers. But, what I am talking about isn't judging but showing a brother or sister he or she is in sin in order for them to recognize it, repent, and turn away from it allowing the Lord to work in their life:

Luke 17: 3-4 Be on your guard! If another disciple sins, you must rebuke the offender, and if there is repentance, you must forgive. 4And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, “I repent,” you must forgive.’

If Jesus really wanted to convey something like helping out a brother or sister who is in sin by "rebuking the offender," I don't know how else he would've gone about doing it than saying exactly what he says here in luke 17:3-4. Also, he says if they repent, then you forgive them.

We are called to love one another with patience and kindness

Yes, we are to love, but we as Christians aren't loving if we don't come to a brother or sister who is obviously in sin, especially if it is sin that is causing another brother or sister to fall (Romans 14:21), and show them that they, according to the Word, are in sin and rebuke them so that they will allow themselves to grow instead of remaining stagnant in their sins--I would want the same done for me. I am almost certain that I stated this a couple of different times in my posts.

Do my posts show up on other peoples computers? Will this one show up?...OH NO!...

Thanks,
Paul

The unexamined life may not be worth living, but the overexamined life is nothing to write home about either.
Daniel C. Dennett

Edited by - A_Theist on 02/15/2003 3:43:51 PM

Edited by - A_Theist on 02/15/2003 4:32:57 PM

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 2/15/2003 1:03 PM (GMT -6)

A couple of important points about Matt. 7:

1. If by "judge not," Jesus meant, "never use your critical-thinking faculties to discern truth from error or sinners from righteous," then He flatly contradicts himself just a few verses later when He says of false prophets, "by their fruits you shall know them."

2. If, on the other hand, Jesus was using "judge" in the sense of "condemn," the meaning is much more clear and the whole passage is consistent--don't condemn others (only God will do that one day), but do use your God-given discernment to be on your guard against false prophets and false teaching.

Nowadays, it seems most Christians use the "judge not" statement in a manner quite unintended originally. It cannot mean "discern not," or else all preaching against sin and for righteousness (undeniably a *major* emphasis of the entire Bible) would be ridiculous.

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)

revivaltheology.net

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 2/15/2003 7:46 PM (GMT -6)

Paul

quote:
I am almost certain that I stated this a couple of different times in my posts.

Do my posts show up on other peoples computers? Will this one show up?...OH NO!...

Paul, I was sharing what I had recently been taught so I am sorry if I said something you had already stated. You know, I'd be willing to bet that your posts DO show up on peoples computers.

Paul and John Earp, I agree with you both that there is a time when we need to confront someone about their sin BUT what I am processing right now in my life, through the powerful revelation God gave me, is that believers need to be SLOW to point out sin on a personal basis because we just have no idea what God is working on with someone... Maybe they are not in a place to feel convicted in a particular area of their life. I may be VERY convicted in an area of my life that another may not even be aware of as sin in their own life. The thing that is for sure is that we are all by nature sinful and it is only as we yield and the Holy Spirit works that we are changed from glory to glory. This transformation is a SLOW process and a UNIQUE process for each believer. I'm sure you know but if you feel a burden for another person I believe the first place to start is on your knees. I think our prayers can do a lot more than our words. The truth needs to be spoken but only when there is an atmosphere of acceptance and only out of love. God doesn't welcome us into the Kingdom and then start telling us ALL the areas we need to change. No! God accepts us just as we are and then very lovingly and patiently reveals small areas we need to surrender and be transformed in.

trosie

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 2/16/2003 2:49 AM (GMT -6)

I’d like to try to offer a few remarks that might (or might not) clarify a few things. As I read this thread, it seems there are three distinct issues that are getting sort of lumped together.

First, there is the issue of whether or not homosexuality as such is sin. Involved in this question are issues such as: Does God ever will one sinful situation over another, as the lesser of two evils (e.g Semeia’s divorce and remarriage points)? If we grant that homosexuality as such is sinful, are ALL forms of homosexuality equally sinful? To what extent is the condition of homosexuality "sin" in the sense that its part of fallen humanity, and to what extent is it ‘sin" in the sense that a person is responsible for choosing it? Etc….

Second, if one concludes that all forms of homosexuality involve (in some sense) sin, there is the distinct issue of how heterosexual Christians should respond to gay people. Involved in this question are issues such as: should homosexuality be classed differently than gluttony, greed, gossip, self-righteousness, remarried divorced people etc…? When is it appropriate for one believer to in love confront another about their sin? Should Christians give "space" to gay people to own their own convictions and grow at their own pace (e.g. the way we do with people who struggle with gluttony or greed or a preoccupation with their appearance etc.)? How should the Church’s past and present unloving treatment of gays affect our present treatment of gays?

And third, and closely related to this second point, is the issue of why the genuineness of a person’s faith is called into question because they disagree with the majority evangelical opinion about what the Bible prohibits and allows regarding gay behavior. There are those who call the genuineness of someone’s faith into question because they disagree with (say) their view of the ontological nature of the future. (How many times have I heard and/or read references to those "who claim to be Christian but who deny that God knows the future"?). Why is one’s stance on this issue raised as a litmus test for authenticity, but not one’s stance on (say) what is the proper way to steward one’s financial resources (viz. when are we greedy)? What is the appropriate amount of food to consume (viz. when are we gluttonous?). What is the appropriate stance of a person who is divorced regarding the possibility of remarriage?

To throw my two cents in the ring, I am as reticent to deny the authenticity of the faith of a person who, for exegetical, hermeneutical or theological reasons, concludes that monogomous gay relationships are viable as I am to deny the authenticity of the faith of those who line up against me on other theological issues. To disagree is one thing. To draw conclusions about the state of their heart vis-à-vis God requires omniscience.

It might help to keep these three issues distinct.

Blessings

Greg

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 2/16/2003 3:50 AM (GMT -6)

Gee, I forgot to subscribe to the thread. I can't wait to write my book on the subject as others have done here.

For now, let me say that though at one point I didn't have much of a response to Wink...now I have come to believe that that guy is REALLY WAY off and therefore, so are Greg, Semeia, Iconoclast, and Miss E.

Later...

Brandon
"Truth is so obscured nowadays and lies so well established that unless we love the truth we shall never recognize it."--Todd Flanders/ Pascal: Talkin' 'bout My Generation

Edited by - BBBCanada on 02/16/2003 08:50:55 AM

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 2/16/2003 12:28 PM (GMT -6)

Doc

quote:
Second, if one concludes that all forms of homosexuality involve (in some sense) sin, there is the distinct issue of how heterosexual Christians should respond to gay people. Involved in this question are issues such as: should homosexuality be classed differently than gluttony, greed, gossip, self-righteousness, remarried divorced people etc…? When is it appropriate for one believer to in love confront another about their sin? Should Christians give "space" to gay people to own their own convictions and grow at their own pace (e.g. the way we do with people who struggle with gluttony or greed or a preoccupation with their appearance etc.)? How should the Church’s past and present unloving treatment of gays affect our present treatment of gays

This is where my heart is on this subject. I have just been overcome by the truth that there are different layers to sin thus there are different layers to the approach to take in dealing with sin. Each person is in different spots on the journey and only God knows the person's heart and their life story completely. If we feel drawn to walk beside someone there are some things we must consider:

First, the person we want to walk beside needs to be aware and believe they are sinning. On this particular thread there seems to be a separation on whether or not people believe homosexuality to be sin. If a person does not accept their behavior as sin then I think the discussion is closed. They will not welcome our words even if we have speak them in love. In this case speaking truth in love will NOT be received and may come off as judgment thereby creating a wall in the relationship. This doesn't seem very profitable and the only positive action we can take is to pray that God will work in their hearts and in ours as well.

Next, if the person believes they are walking in sin, then the person needs to feel a conviction and desire to move away from the sinful behavior. Brother can this be HARD! We all know how hard it can be to stop a behavior (especially if we enjoy it)!

Finally, there is the issue of opening up to renewing the mind and to working toward transformation. This is where the hard work begins! In order to move away from sin a person must cooperate with God to make changes by evaluating the behavior that the person wants to change and then to decide new strategies to replace the old. This is where patience is vital. If a person is continually hearing messages about how "bad" they are for committing the sin then the process may be jeopardized or abandoned. You know how hard it can be when you're trying to do something and someone keeps reminding you that you need to do it differently or that you're not changing fast enough?!

For me the issue seems to get down to whether one wants to view homosexuality, gluttony, gossip, overindulging in alcohol, cheating on tax returns ... as sin or not. This seems to be a HUGE barrier in discussion. I believe this is where we need the Holy Spirit so desperately! The Holy Spirit will convict and reveal truth in due time to each person. We can't make a person believe and we can't make a person change. With this in mind Doc's question about how the Church's unloving treatment of gays affects the present treatment of gays is the core issue for me. I feel convicted that it is NOT my place to force a person to feel convicted. If a person has a personal relationship with Christ, and is allowing the Spirit to move in their lives, then the Holy Spirit is the only one who will be able to convict the person. My job is to love ALL people whether they are believers or nonbelievers. IF a person asks me to speak truth into their life than I must get on my knees FIRST and then trust that the Spirit will speak through me. If a person doesn't invite me in than I still have some control in that I can pray for God to work in their life. In any event we are all REQUIRED to love! I believe this is my job as a layperson within the body.

That's my two cents.

trosie

a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 2/16/2003 1:11 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
This doesn't seem very profitable and the only positive action we can take is to pray that God will work in their hearts and in ours as well.

Work in our hearts how, why?

quote:
I believe this is where we need the Holy Spirit so desperately! The Holy Spirit will convict and reveal truth in due time to each person.

Why? Why do we have to wait around for the Holy Spirit to convict when we have the ground rules laid out before us? Has sin drastically changed that much that we can no longer refer to the bible for guidance?

6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

quote:
The Holy Spirit will convict and reveal truth in due time to each person. We can't make a person believe and we can't make a person change.

True, we can't make a nonbeliever accept what we have to say, but it is stated by Jesus that we are to show a brother or sister who is in sin:

Luke 17:3-4 3Be on your guard! If another disciple sins, you must rebuke the offender, and if there is repentance, you must forgive. 4And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, “I repent,” you must forgive.’

I also agree that we should pray to the Lord that it is his discrenment we are using when pointing it out to a brother or sister's sin, or they might selfishly try to ignore you and deny they are in sin; thus contradicting everything you set out to do.

quote:
Brother can this be HARD! We all know how hard it can be to stop a behavior (especially if we enjoy it)!

I view sin, more-so, as something that we suffer from not something we delight in. Nonbelievers, I am sure are content in their sin, and all I can say is that we pray that they find the Lord through Christ's loving guidance.

quote:
You know how hard it can be when you're trying to do something and someone keeps reminding you that you need to do it differently or that you're not changing fast enough?!

In this instance, it presupposes that the believer is aware of his or her sin. The issue of homosexuality amongst Christians is that people who are defending the behavior aren't treating it as sin or something that needs to be addressed--as is evinced from past posts by people who are for the topic at hand. If someone is struggling and is aware of it as your comments suggests, I would have to believe they would have a desire to profess it to a brother or sister; and if they are being hassled, they should bring it to the other believers attention that they are addressing the issue. But, if a believer won't listen to you as you seem to sugges above, I wonder why they are so quick to dismiss another believer, who I assume, is genuinely trying to help the brother or sister out?

quote:
I feel convicted that it is NOT my place to force a person to feel convicted. If a person has a personal relationship with Christ, and is allowing the Spirit to move in their lives, then the Holy Spirit is the only one who will be able to convict the person.

How do you propose the Holy Spirit would go about this when others are telling them that this is perfectly acceptable? I believe the Holy Spirit does work on people's lives, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one is going to even hear the call or accept it for that matter; especially when brothers or sisters aren't telling them that it is wrong; they might as well think it is from the devil and ignore it.

The unexamined life may not be worth living, but the overexamined life is nothing to write home about either.
Daniel C. Dennett

Edited by - A_Theist on 02/16/2003 7:09:40 PM

Edited by - A_Theist on 02/16/2003 7:50:15 PM

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 2/16/2003 6:50 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Work in our hearts how, why?

Work in OUR hearts to see past the sin in order to love the person where they are at despite the sin. As I see it we have two choices when a person does not receive the words we speak in love: We can continue to try to beat what we have to say into them OR we can accept that they are not open to hearing what we have to say. IF they are not open to hearing us then we may need the Holy Spirit to help us move past this in order to still love the person despite our differences... This is what I meant by that statement.

quote:

I believe this is where we need the Holy Spirit so desperately! The Holy Spirit will convict and reveal truth in due time to each person.

Why? Why do we have to wait around for the Holy Spirit to convict when we have the ground rules laid out before us? Has sin drastically changed that much that we can no longer refer to the bible for guidance?

We need the Holy Spirit to convict because sometimes we enter into a disagreement with other believers in how we interpret the same verses. I have seen over time how people can read the same verses yet have totally different interpretations to those verses on this web site. For the most part, without the Holy Spirit changing someone's heart, I haven't seen much change in opinions or interpretations even though often times many people have posted good reasons for their interpretations. I am convinced that NONE of us have it totally on the mark hence we NEED the Holy Spirit to convict the areas in each life that need to be brought into the light.

If you are totally convinced that your view is the view Jesus would take if he were physically among us today then I KNOW that prayer is much more powerful than any words could ever be. We are to speak softly and walk humbly with our Lord. Sometimes when we don't agree with someone the best way to love them is to make our words few and get on our knees.

quote:
Luke 17:3-4 3Be on your guard! If another disciple sins, you must rebuke the offender, and if there is repentance, you must forgive. 4And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, “I repent,” you must forgive.’

If a believer hurts or offends you personally than you have a duty to rebuke them and another duty to forgive them if they seek repentance. However, what I meant by allowing the Holy Spirit to convict in due time is when the sin doesn't directly effect you and they are not open to your words...

quote:
How do you propose the Holy Spirit would go about this when others are telling them that this is perfectly acceptable? I believe the Holy Spirit does work on people's lives, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one is going to even hear the call or accept it for that matter; especially when brothers or sisters aren't telling them that it is wrong; they might as well think it is from the devil and ignore it.

Please remember that I am speaking from a layperson's stance. I think a preacher/teacher has a whole different calling than someone in my position in revealing and teaching on biblical truth... What I know is that IF a person continually beats a dead horse the issue most likely will not progress ahead productively. I know that before we can ever speak truth into someone's life there must be a level of trust, love and acceptance.

Here's the big question for you. How is it that the sin of homosexuality is so much more of our duty to expose than some of the rest? I know how this may seem like I am down playing this sin but in reality I am trying to bring this into a reality check. Up until recently I was so ready to argue against homosexuality but I would not have felt the same passion in arguing against gossip or gluttony... Yet the bible says that these are all sin. The truth of the matter is that certain sins get put on the hot seat while others are overlooked. The people who are struggling in this area, or who are not in agreement in our interpretation of it being sin, can feel alienated from the body. I am starting to wonder how this can be justified? If we are going to rebuke sin then we have to do it across the board, don't you think?

We all sin so to be fair this means that we all need to be rebuked for whatever sin we are struggling in. Yet I don't think this is usually the most powerful way for transformation. I believe the most powerful way to be transformed is through a personal and daily walk with the Lord. Slowly, I believe the Holy Spirit will bring to light areas we are falling short. As we acknowledge these areas as sin the sin will turn sour, moving us away from it. Sometimes this takes a long process and sometimes this transformation takes a lifetime. If you feel a burden for someone in the process then I encourage you to pray for them.

I hope I've clarified a little bit.

trosie

a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 2/17/2003 3:12 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
How is it that the sin of homosexuality is so much more of our duty to expose than some of the rest?

It's not. I said that sin is sin, but this post is addressing homosexuality, so I don't feel the need to address other sins because I know they are wrong. This is the one that is being overlooked. And like I said, it is more about addressing sin than it is playing favortism with sins.

quote:
If we are going to rebuke sin then we have to do it across the board, don't you think?

This is the frustrating part. Because, like I said above, this is a board addressing homosexuality, I haven't felt the need to address other sins because I presuppose they are all bad; what I've been trying to hit home, is that it is a sin and needs to be addressed as such. I don't know how it is going to benefit anyone when they try to justify it in the light of the fact that is a sin. I even posted that long article by the New Testament scholar who was also in agreement that Paul says it is a sin despit the fact that he loves people of a homosexual persuasion; It is our job to love them, but shouldn't encourage them to stay in their sin.

There are people who have taken poor approaches to addressing homosexuality, but then I've also seen deliverance ministries that seem to work. I am convinced people have viewed it as sin and have repented and become cured of it. How is it that these people can do it, but another believer might never address it because he or she is being told it is perfectly fine? It is the same for lust, gluttony, idolatry, etc. Anything that keeps us away from God's graciousness and redeeming forgiveness. I don't find love in hiding sin from the light when the believers "feelings" are at stake.

I will be more careful in the future at prayer, I am going to even admit that if I see any sin happening that the lord would give them an open heart to accept a loving rebuke so that they will address that sin instead of drowning in it. (This presupposes that they have not addressed sin yet.)

God Bless,
Paul

The unexamined life may not be worth living, but the overexamined life is nothing to write home about either.
Daniel C. Dennett

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 2/17/2003 4:30 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks, Paul. I appreciate your heart and patience with me. I hear what you're saying about deliverance. I too have witnessed testimonies of those who have been delivered. The huge part to the deliverances I have witnessed is indeed that they acknowledged they needed deliverance and were open and READY to allow God to remove the sin they were delivered from. Gosh, I wish it were always that easy though. I'd go to a deliverance service every night if I could get rid of all the areas in my life that need transformation!

It does work but that's not how God tends to work with us -- ya know what I mean?

I am sorry about getting defensive about feeling like homosexuality was getting more exposure than other sins but hey, you're right. This is a thread that was started on that particular topic. I temporarily lost sight of that.

Anyway, I am glad that we both agree that prayer is important and vital! Through the power of fasting and prayer the door was opened a few weeks back for God to expose the sin in my heart that I hadn't even realized I had.

Thanks,
trosie

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 2/17/2003 4:39 AM (GMT -6)

[A Theist, you have quoted Luke 17: 3 about 20 times on this thread to show our responsibility to rebuke other Christians "when they sin." I think the teaching is much more specific and does not warrant or call for the GENERAL policing of "other Christians." Here’s the passage in context, with comments.

Luke 17:1 Jesus said to his disciples, "Occasions for stumbling are bound to come, but woe to anyone by whom they come!
Luke 17:2 It would be better for you if a millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea than for you to cause one of these little ones to stumble.

*** The topic is the consequences of causing another to stumble. The word stumble (skandalon – we get the word "scandal" from it) means "to fall down" [here, into sin].

Luke 17:3 Be on your guard! If another disciple sins, you must rebuke the offender, and if there is repentance, you must forgive.

*** Note the connection between "sins" and offender" and "you must forgive." Seems to me Jesus is still addressing the issue of the consequences of causing another to fall. If someone sins against you, causes you to stumble, you must rebuke the offender, and if they repent, you must forgive. Not only that, but Jesus continues…

Luke 17:4 And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive."

*** It seems clear that Jesus is not giving a blank- check- moral- policing-policy here. He is not saying: "Whenever you see anyone sinning, rebuke them. Whenever someone disagrees with your theological interpretations, rebuke them. Whenever someone does something you don’t think they should be doing, rebuke them." With this mindset, believers would become professional speck finders and log missers. What he is saying is walk in love so as not to cause another to stumble, and walk in love so as to help the person who is causing you to stumble.

Trosie (to A Theist): Here's the big question for you. How is it that the sin of homosexuality is so much more of our duty to expose than some of the rest? I know how this may seem like I am down playing this sin but in reality I am trying to bring this into a reality check…The truth of the matter is that certain sins get put on the hot seat while others are overlooked….If we are going to rebuke sin then we have to do it across the board, don't you think?

Doc: Hit the nail on the head girl. I would only add to your last sentence that it seems the New Testament does specify a context in which it is appropriate to rebuke sin. A) when it harms you (viz. causes you to stumble); b) when a person invites you into their life to do so; c) when you are a leader and people have invited you into their life to lead them (as with the apostle Paul).

Blessings
Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 2/17/2003 5:24 AM (GMT -6)

Doc

quote:
Doc: Hit the nail on the head girl. I would only add to your last sentence that it seems the New Testament does specify a context in which it is appropriate to rebuke sin. A) when it harms you (viz. causes you to stumble); b) when a person invites you into their life to do so; c) when you are a leader and people have invited you into their life to lead them (as with the apostle Paul).

I did say all those things too in one of my posts on this thread.

I do have to agree with Paul(A_Theist) in that this is a thread specifically dedicated to talking about one particular sin. I guess if someone wants to take on and discuss ONE particular sin then this is a free board and they can do so...

trosie

Edited by - trosie on 02/17/2003 10:26:52 AM

a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 2/17/2003 8:52 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
[A Theist, you have quoted Luke 17: 3 about 20 times on this thread to show our responsibility to rebuke other Christians "when they sin."

I try not to make a habbit of abusing a verse to justify my own "theological" ends (I just wanted people to notice what I was getting at, especially after being told that in pointing out sin I was falling prey to the speck-log mindset.); however, I still believe we are to show a brother or sister they are in sin in order that they might recognize it and not cause themsleves, or another one, to fall. My original question on this board (that was never fully answered, but instead was diverted by accusations that I am in no position to judge and that I was averting other sins) was about a 17 year old girl that professed to being a Christian but states in her profile in the live journal community that she is a Christian and bisexual. Now, am I to just take it that maybe she isn't in sin and that anyone else who wants to be bisexual can because it isn't sinful despite with what a majority of Christians believe to be sin? I certainly now am scared to address this to that girl for fear that I will be accused of as a "speck searcher," or a "moral policer."

Although that particular verse isn't saying much in the way of addressing anothers sin; what do these verses mean?

Galatians 6: 1-10

My friends, if anyone is detected in a transgression, you who have received the Spirit should restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness. Take care that you yourselves are not tempted. 2Bear one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3For if those who are nothing think they are something, they deceive themselves. 4All must test their own work; then that work, rather than their neighbor’s work, will become a cause for pride. 5For all must carry their own loads. 6Those who are taught the word must share in all good things with their teacher. 7Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. 8If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest-time, if we do not give up. 10So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all, and especially for those of the family of faith.

2 Timothy 4: 1-5

1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Even if these verses don't mean what I think they mean, how would someone approach me if I was deliberately sinning in front of others possibly causing someone to sin in the process? I would really hope that someone would bring to my attention that as a believer I should no longer be in sin.

quote:
*** It seems clear that Jesus is not giving a blank- check- moral- policing-policy here. He is not saying: "Whenever you see anyone sinning, rebuke them. Whenever someone disagrees with your theological interpretations, rebuke them. Whenever someone does something you don’t think they should be doing, rebuke them." With this mindset, believers would become professional speck finders and log missers. What he is saying is walk in love so as not to cause another to stumble, and walk in love so as to help the person who is causing you to stumble.

I originally brought my afformentioned question about the girl to this board and got nothing from anyone. Semia piped in with her two-cents which usually brings dissuasive words that fall on deaf ears of those who believe the bible to state clearly that homosexuality (which this post is addressing)is a sin. To even support the matter further, I found that New Testament professor's (Walter F. Taylor, jr) essay on homosexuality. I don't view this pointing out of sins "policing" or aspiring to be professional "speck finder"; I do, however, view it, as I said ealier, as wanting the best for another brother or sister in doing something I would want them to do for me if the situation came along. The thing I am not getting is what am I supposed to do about someone who claims Christianity but is professing to be bisexual with no mention of it being a sin but more of a label that she seems to be proudly wearing?

Peace,
Paul

The unexamined life may not be worth living, but the overexamined life is nothing to write home about either.
Daniel C. Dennett

Edited by - A_Theist on 02/17/2003 6:57:18 PM

a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 2/17/2003 11:33 AM (GMT -6)

LifeGuard Ministries

Exodus International

I posted that link I posted a while back on homosexuality to another community and a girl gave me the links to these two sites to show that people,like her father, can be delivered from homosexuality-this shows that it is more than just something determined in your genes by the age of five.

Peace,
Paul

The unexamined life may not be worth living, but the overexamined life is nothing to write home about either.
Daniel C. Dennett

Edited by - A_Theist on 02/17/2003 4:34:40 PM

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 2/17/2003 2:56 PM (GMT -6)

Hi A Theist,

A couple of thoughts about this issue of reproving, rebuking, etc., others' sins:

1. It seems clear at least to me that these verses all presuppose an intimate, loving, Christian fellowship. In that context, doing the above things (among close brothers and sisters) is necessary at times (but no more nor less than exhorting/encouraging). This reminds me so much of my Bible college days, when my very close friends and I would exhort, rebuke, and reprove each other quite a lot.

2. On the other hand, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, Jesus, and other New Covenant preachers seemed to have no problem, when prompted by the HOLY Spirit, to rebuke sin and call all men to repentance. (It would be totally superfluous for me to cite scripture references illustrating this).

I think the key to all this is as Jesus said in Matt. 7: ...first remove the log from your own eye... It seems to me that most professing Christians today somehow think that one can never rise above sinning all the time (can never be free of their own log in the eye), and thus can never help someone else to see their sin. However, Jesus said that we could help our brother once we had removed the log from our own (18th and 19th Century holiness writers would call this state of living "entire sanctification.")

That said, I think this all comes down to one question: Can believers truly live free from sin, as Jesus promised in John 8:32ff, Paul stated in Romans 6 and 8, and John plainly taught in 1 John 3? I really have to wonder precisely how we are defining libertarian free will, if we deny that anyone can ever live free from sin through Christ's power within.

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 02/17/2003 8:26:38 PM

a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 2/17/2003 3:18 PM (GMT -6)

John Earp,

Thanks for the information.

quote:
I am left wondering what in the world some Open Theists mean by libertarian freedom if they do not agree that Christians can and should live free from sin (by the power of the HOLY Spirit, of course).

I agree with you 100%

Sorry that I don't have much more to say.

Blessings,
Paul

The unexamined life may not be worth living, but the overexamined life is nothing to write home about either.
Daniel C. Dennett

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 2/17/2003 6:57 PM (GMT -6)

John Earp

I think the key to all this is as Jesus said in Matt. 7: ...first remove the log from your own eye... It seems to me that most professing Christians today somehow think that one can never rise above sinning all the time (can never be free of their own log in the eye), and thus can never help someone else to see their sin. However, Jesus said that we could help our brother once we had removed the log from our own (18th and 19th Century holiness writers would call this state of living "entire sanctification.")

That said, I think this all comes down to one question: Can believers truly live free from sin, as Jesus promised in John 8:32ff, Paul stated in Romans 6 and 8, and John plainly taught in 1 John 3? I really have to wonder precisely how we are defining libertarian free will, if we deny that anyone can ever live free from sin through Christ's power within.

Iconoclast

Jhn 8:31 Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples,
Jhn 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Jhn 8:33 They answered him, "We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to any one. How is it that you say, 'You will be made free'?"
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin.
Jhn 8:35 The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever.
Jhn 8:36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

John, are you suggesting that Jesus is saying here that we can stop sinning completely here on earth? That our log will be completely removed from our eye?

I hear Jesus saying that once we are saved then through his power we are no longer slaves to sin. The law of sin no longer produces death in us. It no longer dominates us. He doesn’t say that we will or must at some point no longer sin at all in order to become free. He simply states that when He makes us free, we are free. My belief is that when we accept Jesus as our savior then we are free from the power of sin not from actually sinning – else I think we would have to agree that none of us are saved.

On the other hand I believe that the power of Jesus frees us from becoming dominated by our sin and that to the extent that our sin is dominating us is the extent to which we are denying His saving power in our lives.

There are two basic types of “sin lists” in the Bible. The sin list that Jesus used in the Sermon on the Mount and the sin list that Paul used when berating the Corinthians.

I wrote the following a while back:

Should homosexuality be included in a list of sins provided by the Church?

This question presupposes that it is OK for the Church to provide a list of sins. In order to answer the original question this presupposition must first be addressed.

Should the Church provide a list of sins?

Referencing a list of sins in a group invokes either judgement or shame. If I don’t see myself in the list then I immediately go to the place where I judge – where I separate myself (I am good) from “them” (they are bad) – “good thing that I am not like that”. If I do see myself in the list then I feel shame and I feel separated from those around me who I feel judged by. In either case the essence of my fallenness (knowledge of good and evil – judgement/condemnation) is invoked and I separate from God.
Kierkegaard in Works of Love says that love hides the multiplicity of sins – it does not call it out.

Jesus provided a list of sins in his sermon on the mount. It was not however your typical list of sins. Jesus took the typical list and refused to use it in a way that separates us from God by invoking our judgement to condemn or shame. Jesus did invoke our judgement. Jesus called out our judgement to judge that our judgement is no longer valid as a means of guiding us to our own salvation. We can no longer judge others, we can no longer judge ourselves and this means we can no longer judge God. Our only response is to rely completely on God’s grace; on God’s goodness and not ours.

His list did this by showing us all that we miss the mark and we always will. “You have heard it said that …. But I say that even if you have lust in your heart then you are guilty…You have heard it said … but I say that even if you say ‘thou fool’ to your brother you are in danger of hell fire.”

The Church should only provide the full list of sins whenever a list is being produced. Lust in the heart must be included, saying “thou fool” must be included, remarrying when the divorce was not for the right reasons must be included.

The one time Jesus explicitly names the kinds of folk who are headed for eternal damnation, he lists only those who did not provide food for the hungry, drink for the thirsty, did not welcome strangers or provide clothing to the naked, did not visit prisoners. Not one of these was an action taken but rather an action not taken. Quite simply this is about lack of loving action taken toward your fellow man. Anyone “dominated” by some particular sin (e.g. drunkard) won’t be taking a lot of loving action toward others – quite the contrary. And this is because they are not taking any loving action toward themselves.

When Paul produced his list in I Corinthians 6:10 it was not a general list of sins. It was a list of what can come to dominate us and take away our freedom – our ability to go forward transparent and growing in love. When dominated by these things we are heading straight for death – we are in death – here and now.

====================================================

My view is that when seeking to saved the lost we should ONLY use Jesus’ sin list. Anything else is a partial list that does not call people to be saved by the power of Jesus but rather calls people to be saved by their own power to become righteous – it calls people to becomes Pharisees.

In my view the question of homosexuality is quite simply: is homosexuality something that dominates people and therefore prevents them from growing in love and kindness towards others? Is homosexuality like alcoholism, or drug addiction, or kleptomania, or thievery, or murderousness, or promiscuity, or raping, or pedophilia? The data and the facts show that it quite clearly is not.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 2/17/2003 7:11 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

John, are you suggesting that Jesus is saying here that we can stop sinning completely here on earth? That our log will be completely removed from our eye?

I didn't think I was being that ambiguous.

As Paul said, "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? May it never be!" And yes, that includes each and every biblically defined sin.

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)

revivaltheology.net

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 2/17/2003 7:30 PM (GMT -6)

John Earp

As Paul said, "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? May it never be!" And yes, that includes each and every biblically defined sin.

Iconoclast

Does that include such things as picking heads of grain on the Sabbath? Saying "thou fool" to your brother? A careless thought?

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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