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Originally posted by honorman

Hmm, who is greater Mary or Jesus? Sometimes I wonder. Perhaps one should take a look at the amount scripture devotes to each as a refresher course...

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Thus, the Church formally confesses that Mary should properly be called Theotokos, which means literally "the one who gives birth to God." For the one born of Mary is, as the Orthodox Church sings at Christmas: "... he who from all eternity is God." (Hopko)

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At the Vespers the three Old Testamental readings are "mariological" in their New Testamental interpretation. Thus, Jacob's Ladder which unites heaven and earth and the place which is named "the house of God" and the "gate of heaven" (Genesis 28:10-17) are taken, to indicate the union of God with men which is realized most fully and perfectly-both spiritually and physically-in Mary the Theotokos, Bearer of God. So also the vision of the temple with the "door 'to the East" perpetually closed and filled with the "glory of the Lord" symbolizes Mary, called in the hymns of the feast "the living temple of God filled with the divine Glory." (Ezekiel 43:27-44:4) Mary is also identified with the "house" which the Divine Wisdom has built for himself according to the reading from Proverbs 9:1-11.

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• "let us make a vow, at least that from this day, this hour, this very minute, we should try to love God above all else and carry out His teachings." (Saint Herman of Alaska )


• (of her Son) For He...hath exalted the humble and meek" (Mary, in Lk. 1:52).


• And the author concludes: "what could be greater than to be called Christian?"

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Originally posted by honorman

Hmm, who is greater Mary or Jesus? Sometimes I wonder. Perhaps one should take a look at the amount scripture devotes to each as a refresher course...

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Calling to remembrance our all-holy, immaculate, most blessed, and glorious Lady Theotokos and ever-Virgin Mary with all the Saints, let us entrust ourselves and each other, and all our life unto Christ our God.

Choir: To Thee, O Lord.

Priest: For unto Thee are due all glory, honor, and worship: to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto the ages of ages.

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Originally posted by Tigress

I remember being taught in a class that the whole veneration of Mary really didn't start happening until during the Middle Ages when there were a lot wealthy widowed women in the Catholic Church whom the priests and bishops kept appealing to for financial support. These church leaders thought it would help if they raised up a woman figure to venerate and so the logical person to choose was Mary, the mother of Jesus. The wealthy widows in turn kept this going to the point where Mary was exalted to an almost equal place with Jesus.

Personally, I don't think that we're supposed to regard Mary any differently than we would regard Paul, Stephen, John, Priscilla and Aquila or any other Christian mentioned in the Bible. I think it's a sin to put her on an equal level as Jesus, because that's making her into a god.

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Originally posted by fred

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Originally posted by Tigress

I remember being taught in a class that the whole veneration of Mary really didn't start happening until during the Middle Ages when there were a lot wealthy widowed women in the Catholic Church whom the priests and bishops kept appealing to for financial support. These church leaders thought it would help if they raised up a woman figure to venerate and so the logical person to choose was Mary, the mother of Jesus. The wealthy widows in turn kept this going to the point where Mary was exalted to an almost equal place with Jesus.

Personally, I don't think that we're supposed to regard Mary any differently than we would regard Paul, Stephen, John, Priscilla and Aquila or any other Christian mentioned in the Bible. I think it's a sin to put her on an equal level as Jesus, because that's making her into a god.

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WHO puts Mary on "an equal level as Jesus?"

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• Tigress: Personally, I don't think that we're supposed to regard Mary any differently than we would regard Paul, Stephen, John, Priscilla and Aquila or any other Christian mentioned in the Bible. I think it's a sin to put her on an equal level as Jesus, because that's making her into a god.



• ReasonableDoubt: No, Mary shouldn't be put on the same level as God, but she certainly is above most people since she found favor with God, and God chose her out of billions of people to be the mother of Jesus. That is quite an honor not to be taken lightly.

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

CONTRAST

• Tigress: Personally, I don't think that we're supposed to regard Mary any differently than we would regard Paul, Stephen, John, Priscilla and Aquila or any other Christian mentioned in the Bible. I think it's a sin to put her on an equal level as Jesus, because that's making her into a god.



• ReasonableDoubt: No, Mary shouldn't be put on the same level as God, but she certainly is above most people since she found favor with God, and God chose her out of billions of people to be the mother of Jesus. That is quite an honor not to be taken lightly.

The scripture backs that last one up.


Then notice:

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(Answering the question: "WHO puts Mary on "an equal level as Jesus?", Tigress said: Anyone who believes that she should be prayed to and worshipped.

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It is one thing to pray TOO some one. I would never pray "too" you, Tigress. But I might pray FOR you, and petition you to pray FOR me.

Notice what Modes says in the "unconditional love" thread about loving those even who have died, and them loving us.l

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Originally posted by Tigress

Petitioning to someone who is dead ... is praying to them. There is absolutely no difference. The Bible clearly says that to try to communicate with the dead, like mediums do, is an abomination.

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A Protestant sunday liturgy:
With joy we praise you, gracious God,
for you have created heaven and earth,
made us in your image, and kept covenant with us--
even when we fell into sin.
We give you thanks for Jesus Christ, our Lord,
who by his life, death, and resurrection
opened to us the way of everlasting life.
Therefore we join our voices
with all the saints and angels and the whole creation
to proclaim the glory of your name.

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Originally posted by Tigress

Mary was blessed among women, but how does that equate with being at a higher status than anyone else? Jesus Himself said that the Gentiles lord over each other, but we're not supposed to because we're all equal under God.

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

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Originally posted by Tigress

Petitioning to someone who is dead ... is praying to them. There is absolutely no difference. The Bible clearly says that to try to communicate with the dead, like mediums do, is an abomination.

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This is a HUGE over-reaction. Here are a number of different denominations which acknolwege the WHOLE Church in prayer and worship. (I had a quote by John Calvin where he pointed out how busy the saints were in praying for the business of the church -- and didn't have time for the petty requests that onw wonders the people knew better than coming to God for.) But before I collect a few, just think of all the hymns you sing aoubt "For all the Saints..." "Oh For a Thousand Toungues to Sing" is one of them: "the sints in earth and heav'n."

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Originally posted by Tigress

Mary was blessed among women, but how does that equate with being at a higher status than anyone else? Jesus Himself said that the Gentiles lord over each other, but we're not supposed to because we're all equal under God.

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Back up a bit, sister. And pause to realize that you really don't know what you are talking about. You probably know plenty--about what you know. But his is a matter of what OTHER people know. And face to face with them you probably wouldn't go off "half-cocked." Right?

Merely being "blessed among women" does not "equate" into "higher status"; but perhaps "higher status" does make an impact with respect to being "blessed among women." So, what's higher status, anyways? Why the attention to it? What's involved? Maybe this, even, is NOT the place to start. So, where to start?

I mentioned in a post above that "Mariology" fits within (and only within) CHRISTOLOGY. So, only her relationship with Jesus matters. Scripture clearly says that her having given birth to Jesus and nursed him did not matter. It was how close her heart was to Jesus that mattered. Noting else counts!

And the significance to you and me is not "what about that other one?" The issue is US. So what does Mary tell us about us?

Mary is "the one who gives birth to God." Who "bore" God in her body, as intimately as any two people can be with one another. And WE are to be "Christians": to be "Christ-bearers."

To honor Mary as "Theotokos" is to worship God (not Mary) for his salvation. And it is to express faith and gratitude that by God's Spirit we can: set aside all worldly reputation and obediently served our God and King (Phil. 2:9). It is to: gain the mind of Christ is to accept willingly the scorn. It is to accept: humbly...the call...to serve in His Kingdom for His glory... It is to: ...take up our cross and follow Him... It is to: It is to: give up our fantasies of being honored to sit on thrones at His left and right in His kingdom (Mk. 10:40). It is to accept "a sword shall pierce through thine own soul." and take up one's cross.


Mary was the first Christian. Ever. And in Mary the Church has chosen to recognize God at work in mankind. Whatever it has said of her was actually a statement about Christ's salvation by the Spirit.

Historically, those who attacked the term "Theotokos" were actually attacking the doctrine that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully Man: denied that in Christ dwelt bodily all the fullness of God.

We believe that God's Spirit can dwell within us. That there is not some necessary division between God and Man, but that by bridging the gap caused by sin Christ's Spirit can dwell within us, just as Christ is truly God and also truly man.

So, what happened IN Mary is significant with regards to our understanding of salvation. And flowing from that is the significance of what -- although scripture is silent -- piety feels must have happened in Mary as her fiath grew even deeper and her relationship with her Savior became even more all-enveloping/all-permeating.

"Mariology" is a matter of piety. It is a matter of the tradition that puts Christ first, and expresses its love for Christ and its faith in His faithfulness in that form. It is Christological and Christocentric in what it percieves to be a MAXIMUM way!!! it does not take faith half-way. It does not pusue faith half-way. It goes all the way to the Cross, and all the way to Pentacost, and all the say to Glory.

And it is in the Dormition of the Theotokos that the Church looks forward to its own resurrection.


WHY is it that in litrugies everything always has a verse addressing the Theotokos? Its because she has a job to do. And so do we all -- TOGETHER.

Thanks.

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Originally posted by Tigress

I remember being taught in a class that the whole veneration of Mary really didn't start happening until during the Middle Ages when there were a lot wealthy widowed women in the Catholic Church whom the priests and bishops kept appealing to for financial support. These church leaders thought it would help if they raised up a woman figure to venerate and so the logical person to choose was Mary, the mother of Jesus. The wealthy widows in turn kept this going to the point where Mary was exalted to an almost equal place with Jesus.

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I think that it's superstitious to think you even need to venerate Mary at all. There's absolutely no reason for it.

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

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I think that it's superstitious to think you even need to venerate Mary at all. There's absolutely no reason for it.

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I'll just quote YOU: "Mary was blessed among women." (Originally posted by Tigress)

THERE, you did it. Did that hurt?

But, what was YOUR reason for doing so?

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The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.
~John Wesley

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I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.
~Zwingli

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Bullinger (d. 1575) . . . defends Mary's perpetual virginity . . . and inveighs against the false Christians who defraud her of her rightful praise: 'In Mary everything is extraordinary and all the more glorious as it has sprung from pure faith and burning love of God.' She is 'the most unique and the noblest member' of the Christian community . . .
'The Virgin Mary . . . completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all . . . now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.'
~Heinrich Bullinger

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The title 'Ever Virgin' (aeiparthenos, semper virgo) arose early in Christianity . . . It was a stock phrase in the Middle Ages and continued to be used in Protestant confessional writings (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Andrewes; Book of Concord [1580], Schmalkaldic Articles [1537]).
{Raymond E. Brown et al, ed., Mary in the New Testament, Phil.: Fortress Press / NY: Paulist Press, 1978, p.65 (a joint Catholic-Protestant effort) }

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Whatever may be the position theologically that one may take today on the subject of Mariology, one is not able to call to one's aid 'reformed tradition' unless one does it with the greatest care . . . the Marian doctrine of the Reformers is consonant with the great tradition of the Church in all the essentials and with that of the Fathers of the first centuries in particular . . . . .
In regard to the Marian doctrine of the Reformers, we have already seen how unanimous they are in all that concerns Mary's holiness and perpetual virginity . . . {Max Thurian (Protestant), Mary: Mother of all Christians, tr. Neville B. Cryer, NY: Herder & Herder, 1963 (orig. 1962), pp. 77, 197}

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He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained 'inviolata' before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - 'Hail Mary' . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .
'Fidei expositio,' the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}

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Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.
~Martin Luther

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[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called 'first-born'; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.
Under the word 'brethren' the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
~Calvin

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Mary was formally separated from Protestant worship and prayer in the 16th century; in the 20th century the divorce is complete. Even the singing of the 'Magnificat' caused the Puritans to have scruples, and if they gave up the Apostles' Creed, it was not only because of the offensive adjective 'Catholic', but also because of the mention of the Virgin . . .
[But] Calvin, like Luther and Zwingli, taught the perpetual virginity of Mary. The early Reformers even applied, though with some reticence, the title Theotokos to Mary . . . Calvin called on his followers to venerate and praise her as the teacher who instructs them in her Son's commands. {J.A. Ross MacKenzie (Protestant), in Stacpoole, Alberic, ed., Mary's Place in Christian Dialogue, Wilton, Conn.: Morehouse-Barlow, 1982, pp.35-6}

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Tigress: Mary being blessed doesn't automatically mean we have to venerate her. I've been blessed in many ways, too and I don't expect you to venerate me for it!

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Geez, some Catholics just don't think for themselves. They just think that because their church tradition says so, it must be right. I had a college roommate who when I asked her why she believes that the Pope is holy she said, "Because that's what they taught us."

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I only stated what I learned in one class about how the veneration of Mary started. I didn't say that I believed what they said. I think that however the church came to think that Mary should be venerated was a mistake. Just like a lot of other mistakes are made by lots of churches whether Catholic or Protestant.

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(When the Choir has finished the Troparion, the Priest kisses the Gospel Book and lifts it up with both hands, saying in a loud voice:)

PRIEST: Wisdom! Attend!

(The Priest enters the Sanctuary through the Holy Doors and places the Gospel Book on the Altar. Meanwhile the Choir sings the Entrance Hymn.)



THE ENTRANCE HYMN


CHOIR: Come, let us worship and fall down before Christ. O Son of God, who art risen from the dead, save us who sing unto thee: Alleluia.

(Then the Choir sings the Troparia and the Kontakion of the day.)

(While the Choir sings the Troparia, the Priest prays the Prayer of the Trisagion)


THE PRAYER OF THE TRISAGION


PRIEST: O holy God, who restest in thy Holy Place; who art hymned by the Seraphim with thrice-holy cry, and glorified by the Cherubim, and worshipped by every heavenly Power; Who out of nothing hast brought all things into being; who hast created man after thine own image and likeness and has adorned him with thine every gift; who givest to him that askest wisdom and understanding; who despisest not the sinner, but hast appointed repentance unto salvation; who hast vouchsafed unto us, thy humble and unworthy servants, even in this hour to stand before the glory of thy holy Altar and to offer the worship and praise which are due unto thee: Thyself, O Master, accept even from the mouth of us sinners the Hymn of the Trisagion, and visit us in thy goodness. Forgive us every transgression both voluntary and involuntary; sanctify our souls and bodies; and grant us to serve thee in holiness all the days of our life: through the intercessions of the holy Theotokos and of all the Saints who from the beginning of the world have been well-pleasing unto thee.

PRIEST: Let us pray to the Lord.

CHOIR: Lord, have mercy.

PRIEST: For holy art thou, O our God, and unto thee we ascribe glory: to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages.

CHOIR: Amen.



THE TRISAGION HYMN


CHOIR: Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us (Thrice)

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: both now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.

Dynamis!

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us.

(The Priest also says the Trisagion; then he bows toward the Prothesis and quietly says the following prayer:)

PRIEST: (quietly) Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

(Then facing the High Place he says, quietly:)

PRIEST: Blessed are thou on the throne of the glory of thy kingdom, who sittest upon the Cherubim: always, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

(The People Sit)



THE APOSTLE


PRIEST: Let us attend!

(The Reader recites the Prokeimenon of the Epistle)

PRIEST: Wisdom!

(The Reader announces the title of the Epistle)

PRIEST: Let us attend!

(The Reader sings the Epistle for the day. When he has finished the Priest says to the Reader:)

PRIEST: Peace be to thee that readest.

CHOIR: Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.

(During the reading of the Epistle, the Priest censes the Gospel Book, and reads quietly the prayer before the Gospel.)



THE PRAYER BEFORE THE GOSPEL


PRIEST: Illumine our hearts, O Master who lovest mankind, with the pure light of thy divine knowledge, and open the eyes of our mind to the understanding of thy Gospel teachings; implant in us also the fear of thy blessed commandments, that trampling down all carnal desires, we may enter upon a spiritual manner of living both thinking and doing such things as are wll pleasing unto thee: for thou art the illumination of our souls and bodies, O Christ our God, and unto thee we ascribe glory, together with thy Father who is from everlasting, and thine all-holy, good, and life-giving Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

(The People Stand)



THE GOSPEL


PRIEST: Wisdom! Attend! Let us hear the holy Gospel. Peace be to all.

CHOIR: And to thy spirit

PRIEST: The Reading is from the Holy Gospel according to Saint N.

CHOIR: Glory to thee, O Lord, glory to thee.

(The Priest sings the appointed passage from the holy Gospel; when he has finished, the Choir sings:)

CHOIR: Glory to thee, O Lord, glory to thee.

(The people sit)

(The Priest preaches the sermon. **about that scripture**)

(The Priest makes the sign of the Cross over the Antimins with the Gospel Book, and places it before the Altar tabernacle; he unfolds the Antimins, makes the sign of the Cross above it with the sponge, and says the following prayer:)

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I think that however the church came to think that Mary should be venerated was a mistake. Just like a lot of other mistakes are made by lots of churches whether Catholic or Protestant.

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TONE 1 ON SATURDAY EVENING AT SMALL VESPERS
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/sat1ec.htm

Let us hymn the whole world’s glory, engendered from mankind and who gave birth to the Master, the Gate of heaven, Mary the Virgin, the song of the Bodiless Powers and adornment of the faithful; for she has been proclaimed Heaven and Temple of the Godhead. She by destroying the middle wall of enmity has brought peace instead and thrown open the King’s palace. Therefore, holding fast to her as anchor of the faith, we have as champion the Lord born from her. Take courage therefore, take courage, people of God; for he will make war on the foe as All-powerful.


TONE 2 ON SATURDAY EVENING AT SMALL VESPERS

The shadow of the law has passed now that grace has come, for as the Bush in flames was not consumed, so as a Virgin you bore a Child and remained a Virgin; instead of a pillar of fire the Sun of righteousness has dawned, instead of Moses Christ, the salvation of our souls.


TONE 3 ON SATURDAY EVENING AT SMALL VESPERS

How should we not marvel at your Offspring, who is both God and man, all-honoured one? For without knowing man, O all-blameless, you gave birth in the flesh to a Son without father, begotten from the Father before the ages without mother, in no way undergoing change, or mixture or separation, but preserving intact the identity of either nature. Therefore, Sovereign Lady, Virgin Mother, implore him that the souls may be saved of those who with right belief acknowledge you as Mother of God.


TONE 4 ON SATURDAY EVENING AT SMALL VESPERS

The Prophet David, through you the ancestor of God, spoke of you in song beforehand to him who has done great things for you: the Queen stood at your right hand. For he, the God who was well pleased without father to become man from you, declared you to be mother, source of life, that he might refashion his own image, corrupted by passions, and, having found the lost sheep wandering on the mountain and laid it on his shoulders, he might bring it to his Father; and by his own will unite it to the heavenly Powers and save the world, O Mother of God, Christ who has great and rich mercy.


TONE 5 ON SATURDAY EVENING AT SMALL VESPERS

In the Red Sea was once depicted an image of the Bride who knew not wedlock. There Moses the parter of the water, here Gabriel the servant of the marvel; then Israel marched dry shod through the deep, but now the Virgin has given birth to Christ without seed; the sea after Israel's passage remained untrodden; the Blameless one after bearing Emmanuel remained incorrupt. O God, who exists and pre-exists, and appeared as man, have mercy on us.


TONE 6 ON SATURDAY EVENING AT SMALL VESPERS

Who will not call you blessed, All-holy Virgin? Who will not hymn your child-birth without labour? For the only-begotten Son, who shone from the Father beyond time, came forth from you, pure Maiden, ineffably incarnate. By nature he is God, by nature he became man for our sakes, not divided in a duality of persons, but known without confusion in a duality of natures. O honoured and all-blessed, implore him to have mercy on our souls


TONE 7 ON SATURDAY EVENING AT SMALL VESPERS

You were known as a Mother beyond nature, O Mother of God; you remained a Virgin beyond reason and understanding; no tongue can expound the marvel of your child-bearing; for while your conceiving, Pure One, was wondrous, the manner of your bearing child cannot be comprehended, for wherever God wills the order of nature is overthrown. Therefore as we all acknowledge you to be Mother of God we implore you insistently: Intercede that our souls may be saved.


TONE 8 ON SATURDAY EVENING AT SMALL VESPERS

The King of heaven through love for mankind appeared on earth and lived among men; for taking flesh from a pure Virgin and coming forth from her with the addition, he is one Son, double in nature, but not in person; therefore proclaiming him as truly perfect God and perfect man, we confess Christ our God; implore him, Mother without bridegroom, to have mercy on our souls.

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