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Empiress
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| Posted 6/7/2002 12:08 PM (GMT -6) |   | Can true repentance from a sin(s) occur in a non-Christian context?
If an atheist repents of a particular or multiple sins, is convinced that they are evil, makes a decision not to do them again, and seeks to ammend his ways, has he repented? What about a person of another faith...a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, etc.?
If non-Christians can repent in this way, how do you think God looks upon this repentance? Will such repentance "count" before the throne of God in some way on the day of Judgment?
Just curious to hear people's thoughts on this...
~Empiress
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Matthew Timothy Short
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| Posted 6/7/2002 3:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Empiress,
Although, I can change my behavior, only faith in God can change my nature. Repentance toward God should not exclude faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
In God’s Love,
Tim
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Tom
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| Posted 6/7/2002 6:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Although, I can change my behavior...but not my nature.
Wow! You can do that? I was thinking of Rom. 7.
I'm thinking on this ome Empiress. But I promise not to haunt this thread too! 
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
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| Posted 6/8/2002 4:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Tom,
I can stop hating people, where I no longer kill them, change my actions, repentance. However, only faith in God can change the nature in me; that which hates; repentance toward God, and not my behavior alone.
In God’s Love,
Tim
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Empiress
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| Posted 6/8/2002 4:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Tim,
The second response you gave seems to indicate we can repent from "sin," which is what my question is asking, even if that repentance is not "toward God." Is that what you're saying?
I am trying to distinguish between purely Christian repentance and repentance in a non-Christian environment. There are atheists who feel that they have done wrong and then amended their ways, isn't that a form of true repentance?
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Another question: Is it possible that everybody has access to grace in a general way, so as to be able to have a genuine change of heart and turn from sin? Or do people think this is reserved only for Christians?
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Tom,
I don't mind you "haunting" threads! ;-)
Peace all,
~Empiress
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Matthew Timothy Short
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| Posted 6/8/2002 5:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Dearest Empiress,
Yes, I believe I can repent from "sin" (i.e. Change behavior)…even if that repentance is not "toward God" (i.e. Who changes my nature).
I believe atheists, who feel that they have done wrong, and then amended their ways, have indeed changed; turned from the wickedness of their ways; repented. Although, merely despising my evil desires and changing my behavior, is not true repentance toward God.
I must turn to God for my Salvation, not from my sins alone, to obtain a new nature. Because then, I would boast of my own efforts, in turning from my sins, to deserve God’s favor; this is not true grace at all.
I believe everyone has access to God’s grace, through faith, and not by works of our own righteousness; to have a genuine change of heart (i.e. nature) and turn from sin. This offer is reserved for all people, because true repentance toward God, is faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
In God’s Love,
Tim
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Winghead
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| Posted 6/12/2002 3:29 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree, Tim
The new nature point is important. Without Christ, we may exercise a level of repentance, but real nature changing comes from God. That kind of new birth is not something one can do one your own. This is one of the things that converted my from the New Age to Christianity. I knew many New Agers, including myself, who wanted to be different, but they lacked the inner stuff to fully realize the change. Even with all the so-called "knowledge" and "special revelation" and the "Ascended Masters", etc, they eventually fell short. It was Rom 3:23 over and over again.
On the other hand, Jesus would get a hold on people's lives, and they would overcome besetting sins, reconcile marriages, be set free from drugs, and so on. The gospel of Jesus seemed to be something that any one -- even these least "spiritual" -- could receive.
YBIC,
Winghead
P.S. I just got two stars!!!! Yippeee 
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
Edited by - Winghead on 06/12/2002 8:30:10 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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markus
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| Posted 6/13/2002 3:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Is this not linked to the question of mind over heart, or self over God?
Maybe an important ingredient in pondering can repentance also be a non-Christian phenomena, is the reason WHY anyone would seek repentance in the first place. If even St Paul struggled with doing/not doing what he would rather not do/do, then it must be clear that we do indeed possess inside us a pre-written scale of values against which we can and should measure our thoughts, words and deeds.
The Bible confirms that God decided to write his law in our hearts and it is, I think, a fair assumption that if that is so, then no one is without it. So that leaves us with the question of what would motivate us to bother with this law and encourage us to compare our actions against it. I guess what the believer calls God’s integral law within his heart is also what the atheist would describe as his secular moral code.
I would suggest that these two scales of values (God’s law and moral code) do overlap substantially, and it is maybe within this common ground that the non-Christian/atheist can also repent of “sin” purely based on a wish to live a wholesome life. However, this repentance decision is still self-driven by one’s own mind and is unlikely to be long-term in nature as it is not linked to pleasing an unchanging external reference, i.e. God. I am also not actually so sure that I would term this “repentance”, rather more like a reforming or re-evaluating of what one sees as sensible or beneficial from a “self” centred viewpoint.
Repentance before God, on the other hand, includes a feeling of naked shame and humiliation before someone that one feels absolute love and respect for. It also involves measuring one’s actions against another’s scale, which extends far beyond one’s own measures, especially in areas such as forgiveness and consideration of others. Maybe one good example of the difference between self-values and God’s values is found in the workplace. Self values include, for example, ambition and company loyalty. But these are often found contradictory to God’s values.
A company salesman has targets to meet. Which is more important, the company’s targets or the customers’ best interests? A national statesman has a constant battle between God’s values of peace and love, and the responsibility to protect and enhance the nation’s best interests – which are usually very secular and selfish in nature! In these situations, what an atheist might term good values (e.g. maximizing the material well-being of his family) might actually infringe God’s laws.
It is often said “you cannot take it with you when you die”, but in fact we take an awful lot with us. We take with us everything that we daily do/don’t say, think, and act. If all of this is brought up on the day of Judgment then surely everyone’s attempts to do better are taken into account – but are not necessarily saving. Revelation tells of each being judged according to his works.
I believe that it is true that Jesus is the only Way [in], but I do not think that is the same thing as saying only Christians pass through. If you like, by being a believer in Christ, one buys an advance ticket guaranteeing admission, and will be waved through by Jesus. But all others will also be assessed by Jesus, and only allowed to pass according to their acceptability (that afterall is God’s own right!). This is the only way that I can see hope for those righteous people that surely exist in other religions or lived before Christ or did not find God in their lifetime. However, the risk of failure must be huge, and the task immense of trying to make it on one’s own – actually, surely, impossible and rests entirely on God’s grace through acknowledgement of the causes why one had not found faith during one’s lifetime. But God sees in each person’s heart, and I cannot see how any good heart is abandoned by a God of love.
One example of acceptability of non-Christians must be babies and infants that have no chance to grow old enough to find Christ in their own lifetimes. For example, when Joseph and Mary fled to avoid Herod’s slaughter of all those under 2 years, can anyone believe all those babies killed are now lost, having died as a direct result of Jesus’ own birth? – I have to doubt that.
I think there some similarities here with Jesus’ story of the father who asked his two sons for help – one declined and then still helped, whereas the other agreed and did nothing. It must surely be what goes on in our hearts that ultimately carries weight, but only Jesus can carry out improvement in us through our acceptance of him in our lives.
I guess another issue here is the timeframe that we consider. We are so used to seeing everything as a snapshot – a single frame of a life’s movie, and then we tend to assess according to what we see in that single frame. Us humans prefer to see a just and immediate punishment for each individual crime. But God only weighs the scales and declares the final verdict at the very end – we each have our whole lives within which to change and we should see that the repenting non-believer today may become the faithful follower of Christ tomorrow – or even a hard-hearted twisted villain.
But surely the only safe bet for continued improvement and ultimately guaranteed success is belief in Christ Jesus, through whom all would be saved. I think one of the most beautiful and meaningful parts on the Bible is the following:
“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen”
Hbr 13:20,21
Amen from me, too.
Markus
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Springs
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| Posted 6/13/2002 5:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Congrats Winghead!
Thanks for the New Age perspective. The pantheist mystic I met, had great wisdom, and an astounding ability to love, and yet was a bit frustrated by the fact that she had not yet acquired the ability to overcome the flesh.
-S
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Matthew Timothy Short
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| Posted 6/15/2002 4:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Everyone,
To God is all the Glory, and thanks for acknowledging my point winghead. I was merely frustrated with my own existence and take on life; ask God to help, and change from what discussed me, about myself, keeps occurring.
Markus, great point.
Furthermore, God not only gives me a new nature in this life to face temptation with; He gives me incorruption in the next life, no more temptation to face.
God’s Love,
Tim
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Empiress
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| Posted 6/15/2002 9:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank you Tim, Winghead, and Markus for your perspectives! Great insights and discussion.
Peace,
Empiress
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 6/17/2002 7:02 AM (GMT -6) | | I like this question. Interesting conversation.
I think that the doctrine of "prevenient grace" ("grace that goes before or precedes") is important to this discussion. Repentence comes about as a response to God's gracious revelation. We recognize that we are sinners, the awareness of our sin is intensified in proportion to our own humility and honesty before God, and we are free to repent of this or to deny it, resist it, hide it, etc. Of course, we generally work out some sort of compromise in our minds and hold onto a certain amount of junk (read "sin") that we are not ready to repent of. We repent of "the rest."
I would want to say that as Christians, the resources are there to truly repent in the most transparent way (this is a statement of Christ's sufficiency). But often (always?) Christians settle for a worldly sort of compromised repentance instead. This possibility for a truly transparent repentance before God requires the "prevenient grace" of God which those who don't know Christ do not have access to (a statement of the necessity of Christ). This is not a question of salvation at this point but only of the ideal form of repentance. Salvation would have to do with the trajectory involved (God as master or the world as master), not necessarily its purity.
For what its worth, there's my opinion.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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| Posted 6/19/2002 9:37 AM (GMT -6) | | anyone care to respond?
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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| Posted 6/20/2002 10:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh! Hey there Modes! I didn't see your response till just now. Thanks for you reply and it's good to see you on the board!
I appreciate your point about prevenient grace...that seems to fit in well into a any discussion about repentance.
Modes said:
quote:
This is not a question of salvation at this point but only of the ideal form of repentance. Salvation would have to do with the trajectory involved (God as master or the world as master), not necessarily its purity.
What an excellent point!
Do you think we can, then, separate repentance from salvation? Is it possible to repent (in this less than ideal form) and yet ultimately not attain salvation? Or is the fact that one repents at all a sign of "things to come" in terms of salvation at some future point?
~Empiress
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geej
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| Posted 6/20/2002 5:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Empiress
If the person is an athiest, to whom are they repenting? For that matter, if God is a non-factor (doesn't exist), why are they worrying about the existence of evil? The question that comes to mind is where do ethics and morals originate? When you look at other animals, ethics and morals are non-existent (and I LOVE animals); humans are the only ones who possess this sense or longining for goodness; we are the only beings cognizant of these concepts. It seems as though the natural conclusion to athiesm is existentialism and/or social darwinism (survival of the fittest) and anarchy.
Using this logic, I'd agree with what others have said; they can certainly engage in behavior modification and they can certainly be sorry they did something and because God created us with the need to be united with him, all humans have a need to belong and are cognizant of the need for good and the existence of evil but they cannot be repentant; this is an entirely different matter.
Geej
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Empiress
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| Posted 6/20/2002 9:56 PM (GMT -6) | | For the purpose of clarification, I'm speaking of repentance as commonly understood and defined:
(From Merriam-Webster)
Repent:
intransitive senses
1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind
transitive senses
1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition
2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
It is VERY possible for those who do not know God to have regret, feel contrition, and seek to amend their life. So my question isn't whether repentance occurs for non-Christians, because clearly it does. My question is whether people consider this repentance as "valid" before God in some way. In other words, even though the atheist doesn't believe in God, does God in some way honor that repentance in the sense that it is a step towards righteousness? What is happening when someone repents in a non-Christian context? Is it really merely "behavior modification" or is God involved in some way?
I hope that clarifies my question.
Geej asked:
quote:
If the person is an athiest, to whom are they repenting?
It seems a person can "repent" without there being an object of their repentance, but despite that, repentance can be aimed towards oneself or other's whom they have hurt. Atheists do ask for forgiveness from others, including their enemies and loved ones.
quote:
For that matter, if God is a non-factor (doesn't exist), why are they worrying about the existence of evil?
I confess to being baffled by this question...maybe I'm misunderstanding the question but the answer seems quite obvious. I think atheists are concerned about evil because they love people and don't like to see bad things happen to their fellow human beings. When they realize they've hurt fellow humans, they feel sorry about it and seek to mend their ways.
Springs said:
quote:
The pantheist mystic I met, had great wisdom, and an astounding ability to love, and yet was a bit frustrated by the fact that she had not yet acquired the ability to overcome the flesh.
Oh man, I haven't "acquired the ability to overcome the flesh yet" either! Have you all??? Or is it just me and the new agers? 
Thanks all,
Empiress
Edited by - Empiress on 06/21/2002 02:58:18 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Magneton
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| Posted 6/21/2002 12:34 PM (GMT -6) | | Empiress,
Here's the way I look at repentance.
The central concern of God toward us is that we be in a RELATIONSHIP with him, rather than attainment of a higher degree of righteousness. Repentance is a tool toward that end, as part of the process of removing the barrier of estrangement and alienation between us and God. We repent because we realize that we hurt God directly by our sin, and seek to no longer do what would strain our relationship with him.
Repentance can be used for other purposes as well, just as a hammer can be used to build a mansion or a birdhouse. The repentance of an atheist is just as "valid" - it's just for a different purpose.
This is perhaps a layman's paraphrase of Modes' "trajectory" idea.
Magneton
The best way to have a good idea is to have lots of ideas. Linus Pauling
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Empiress
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| Posted 6/21/2002 1:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey thanks Magneton!
You said:
quote:
Repentance can be used for other purposes as well, just as a hammer can be used to build a mansion or a birdhouse. The repentance of an atheist is just as "valid" - it's just for a different purpose.
Okay...I'm trying to get to the crux of my question...so then what "purpose" do you see an atheist's repentance as serving in the eyes of God? Is there any? Is there any purpose in a theological sense?
Thanks,
Empiress
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Magneton
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| Posted 6/21/2002 7:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Empiress,
I agree with you that the atheist’s repentance is of value, and that it is a step toward righteousness. I would think that God would see it as of value, as well. The analogy that comes to mind is that he would appreciate that there are less weeds in his garden; the world is a more beautiful place as a result of this change in behavior and attitude. However, he raises fruit, so that is his primary concern. People who are alive to him, who draw life from him, are what he is after.
Magneton
Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair. Gilbert K. Chesterton
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Iconoclast
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| Posted 6/21/2002 8:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Magneton:
We repent because we realize that we hurt God directly by our sin, and seek to no longer do what would strain our relationship with him.
Iconoclast:
Have you ever wondered what it is about our sin that hurts God? I mean, he is the creator, the only way we could possibly hurt God is if he gave us the power to hurt him. The only people we give the power to hurt us are the ones we truly care about. I think there are two kinds of hurt we can have. The kind where another’s approval fills a need in us and the kind where we hurt because they hurt. I don’t think God has a need for our approval. Therefore our sin must hurt him because it hurts us. Or, in other words, God doesn’t really care about our sin he only really cares about us. The sin he cares about is that sin which is hurting us. Which is, I think, simply to say that he really loves us.
So…if an atheist ‘repents of their sin’ this must mean that they have found a way to overcome something that was hurting them. They have less hurt. They have more joy. God has less hurt. God has more joy.
It seems to me that ‘to have less hurt’ can only mean that one is closer to their origin. Closer to their center. Closer to their true Being and therefore closer to God.
Since God is the “ground of all being” isn’t this by definition then reducing the “strain” (the pulling apart) of our relationship with God?
If an atheist continues to detect and correct the ‘sin’ in their life (that which hurts them – as measured by it hurting God) don’t they by definition draw closer to God? And isn't that what God wants?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Edited by - Iconoclast on 06/22/2002 11:03:17 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 6/22/2002 6:13 AM (GMT -6) | | A rerun:
As Father John Chryssavgis states in his book "Repentance and Confession in Orthodox Tradition" : Repentance is not to be confused with mere remorse, with a self-regarding feeling of being sorry for a wrong done. It is not a state but a stage, a beginning. Rather, it is an invitation to new life, an opening of new horizons, the gaining of a new vision. | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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| Posted 6/22/2002 8:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey modes, looks like we are all coalescing around your 'trajectory' idea.
thanks,
Iconclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Empiress
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| Posted 6/22/2002 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank you Magneton for getting to the heart of my question...I think we agree!
And Icon...wow. It seems like you just drew out in words what I was feeling but couldn't pinpoint...hence my question. I'm trying to develop a much more comprehensive (read: better) theology that encompasses atheists, people of all faiths, etc. Thank you so much for your words!
Blessings and thanks,
Empiress
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Magneton
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| Posted 6/22/2002 6:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast:quote:
I think there are two kinds of hurt we can have. The kind where another’s approval fills a need in us and the kind where we hurt because they hurt. I don’t think God has a need for our approval. Therefore our sin must hurt him because it hurts us. Or, in other words, God doesn’t really care about our sin he only really cares about us. The sin he cares about is that sin which is hurting us. Which is, I think, simply to say that he really loves us.
I don’t think this exhausts the types of hurt we can have (spoken as one INTP to another). I agree that because of God’s love for us, it hurts him to see us hurting. When I think of the impact of our sin on God, though, I’m thinking in a more direct sense, i.e. that it is a direct offense against God. The type of hurt I’m thinking he experiences is perhaps more like a profound disappointment with our willful choices which ignore or rebel against him, and disappointment with the resulting loss of an intimate relationship. It’s the hurt of a rejected lover.
Iconoclast:quote:
If an atheist continues to detect and correct the ‘sin’ in their life (that which hurts them – as measured by it hurting God) don’t they by definition draw closer to God? And isn't that what God wants?
I don’t think so. Intention and motive are very central here. The atheist isn’t correcting his/her behavior and attitudes as part of an effort to draw close to God. Here’s another analogy. If I put a lot of effort into preparation and dressing up for a night out with my wife, she’ll appreciate that I want to be at my best for her. But if I do the same preparation for a night out with another woman, (or for that matter, for a night out with the guys), I wouldn’t expect the same level of appreciation from my wife. I don’t get points just for cleaning up, but rather for developing the relationship.
I don’t want to read more into your statement than you meant, but you seem to be suggesting that we can draw closer and become more acceptable to God by changing our behavior – that his priority is goodness, rather than relationship. I would suggest that apart from a conscious move toward God, we’re not making progress in developing a relationship with God.
Here’s a possibility, however. That atheist who has repented of what she knows is wrong, who strives to live a good life, may “catch God’s eye” like that sweet young woman across the dance floor catches a young man’s eye. God could look at that person and say, “I like her style. She has great potential. I’d like to get better acquainted. Maybe I can find someone to introduce us.” Maybe God would turn up the heat, somehow, to woo that person into the Kingdom. (Does this fit with any of the prevailing theories on Election?)
Blessings,
Magneton
"Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." - T. S. Eliot
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Iconoclast
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| Posted 6/22/2002 10:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Magneton:
I don’t think this exhausts the types of hurt we can have (spoken as one INTP to another).
Iconoclast:
Good catch - I mismatched on that myself a bit when I wrote it. I also see now that I didn’t clearly connect that the two types were only in the context of us giving someone else the power to hurt us. Certainly other people can force a myriad number of types of hurt on us. But it is impossible for someone to hurt our sense of self-worth unless we give them that power. And we simply don’t hurt for someone unless we care about them. I still can’t think of any other possibilities…
Magneton:
When I think of the impact of our sin on God, though, I’m thinking in a more direct sense, i.e. that it is a direct offense against God. The type of hurt I’m thinking he experiences is perhaps more like a profound disappointment with our willful choices which ignore or rebel against him, and disappointment with the resulting loss of an intimate relationship. It’s the hurt of a rejected lover.
Iconoclast:
I struggle with what you mean by “direct offense against God.” My experience of being offended entails myself calling into question my own self-worth. I don’t see God as having this issue. And when I think of the hurt of a rejected lover I tend to think of an intense desire that arises from an emptiness inside me not pure love for the person rejecting me.
On the other hand, It makes a lot of sense to me that God would feel disappointment with our willful choices and disappointment with the resulting loss of a potential loving relationship. But this would arise out of total and complete concern for our well-being. If we reject God we become nothing, God is still complete.
Magneton:
I don’t think so. Intention and motive are very central here. The atheist isn’t correcting his/her behavior and attitudes as part of an effort to draw close to God.
Iconoclast:
I agree. Intention and motive are indeed central.
I think there are two possible meanings to an atheist “repenting of their sin”. One meaning is that the atheist is seeking a higher state of righteousness out of their own knowledge of good and evil – seeking “goodness” in order to be ok. I would argue that this is the antithesis of getting closer to God. This does not “remove a weed from the garden.” It is growing the weed and seeding a bunch more.
The other meaning is that the atheist sees how their behavior is negatively impacting another person and out of concern for another they repent and change their behavior. They choose to love another at a cost to themselves. They choose to give a glass of water to this child. They choose to visit that person in jail.
I was attempting to assert the latter meaning rather than the former.
Magneton:
The atheist isn’t correcting his/her behavior and attitudes as part of an effort to draw close to God.
…
I don’t want to read more into your statement than you meant, but you seem to be suggesting that we can draw closer and become more acceptable to God by changing our behavior – that his priority is goodness, rather than relationship.
I would suggest that apart from a conscious move toward God, we’re not making progress in developing a relationship with God.
Iconoclast:
I agree that God’s desire is ONLY relationship and not “goodness” at all.
There is a desire to correct behavior in order to gain “points” from God (seeking our own righteousness over and against God) and there is a desire to correct behavior out of love for another – the behavior is having a negative impact on them.
When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was he at first seems to give two: Love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself. My fundamental argument here is based on the supposition that these are, in fact, a single unified command – they are inseparable. That loving God entails loving your neighbor AND that loving your neighbor entails loving God.
Therefore the atheist who truly repents and chooses to love their neighbor is, in fact, choosing to love God whether they know him by name or not. I believe this is the meaning of the passage where Jesus says that many will say Lord, Lord did we not…(do all sort of wonderful things for you)… and Jesus says, “depart from me, I never knew you”. (paraphrase throughout) And then Jesus says that others will say but Lord we never knew you and Jesus will say, “yes, but when you gave that cup of water to that little child, you were giving it to me.”
And when Jesus met the woman at the well, who had 5 husbands and wasn’t married and didn’t worship God as revealed to the Jews, their interaction suggests to me that Jesus and that woman already had a love relationship going on. He merely hinted about who He was and the woman knew Him.
I agree that “apart from a conscious move toward God, we’re not making progress in developing a relationship with God.” I would only add that “a conscious move toward God” can be accomplished by making a conscious move toward loving our neighbor.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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