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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 10/16/2002 6:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hey everybody
I'm trying to get my head around the whole 'guidance' thing at the moment. Anybody's input would be much appreciated.
My story at the moment:
Started a DTS with YWAM about 3 1/2 weeks ago, but felt God saying that I should go home because my going there had been my idea not his (not that the two aren't mutually exlusive). So I'm now back home, and a little lost.
Now I know that when God directly says stuff to guide us, we should do what he says. But what should we do when we don't get an answer? I also know it's good to acknowledge God in every area of our lives, but to what extent should we seek God's direction in what to do?
Just interested in what people have to say.
love
Tim
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 10/17/2002 6:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Timlings,
Sorry to hear you are going through an uncertain time. It can be so unsettling to be between things, and not really know what's next.
When I can't hear the Lord, and I'm uncertain of his will in a particular situation, I take my best shot based on what I feel in my heart, and know in my head. We may not know where we are going but we know him well enough to know how to conduct ourselves along the way. I think God leaves some decisions up to me. For the most part that can be a good thing, but sometimes living in uncertaintly can be really obnoxious.
May the Lord bless you and keep you, and make his face shine upon you, and give you peace.
Springs
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 10/17/2002 11:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Tim: Started a DTS with YWAM about 3 1/2 weeks ago, but felt God saying that I should go home because my going there had been my idea not his (not that the two aren't mutually exclusive). So I'm now back home, and a little lost.
Tom: I might be all wrong on this. But I couldn't get any guidance from God on it, so...! Just kiding!
It all seems a bit odd. You’re at a DTS but decide to leave because your going was your idea and not God’s; but you also admit that your desiring to do something and God’s will that you do it are not necessary at odds. And you’re not claiming they were at odds here. Or are you? So why DID you leave? And how did you know that God wanted you to leave?
You may have simply been overly sensitive. You didn’t get “specific” instructions from God to attend, thought perhaps you should have, and so concluded that you ought not be there. But if you admit that we often want to do what God’s will is, that is, that it’s “God working in us to will and to do his good pleasure,” then there was no reason for you to question your being there and I’m wondering why you did. It certainly could have been God moving you on. I don’t know. I’m just saying that “God didn’t give me specific instructions to be here” shouldn’t be reason in itself to leave if you also admit that God’s will for us and our wills often work together on stuff like this. But the fact that a) you now feel “lost,” and b) you posted as you did leads me to think you may be expecting more explicit/obvious divine leading than is—can I say it?—“normal” and that you would have been perfectly fine staying at the DTS.
Tim: But what should we do when we don't get an answer?
Tom: Take another look at the question. In the end, like Springs said, just do what your heart says and trust God.
Tim: I also know it's good to acknowledge God in every area of our lives, but to what extent should we seek God’s direction in what we do?
Tom: Nobody can answer that for you. I think “acknowledging” God in every area of our lives is the key. Paul says that in everything we do we should do it “heartily, as for the Lord rather than for people.” Intending all things for God opens the door wide for God to intervene when and if God wants to redirect us.
I think Springs is right on too. Sometimes we take our best shot and trust God. If our hearts are pure, that is, if we intend that which we do to be “unto Christ,” then I say move forward with you best inclination. We may later discover that what we did could have been done more effectively, or would have been better not done at all, but this wouldn’t mean we “missed” God (I don’t think). As a general rule, I think pure intention brings God into all that we do and makes it holy ground.
I thought of posting a section on “Guidance” from a paper I recently wrote on the open view, but it’ll only make this post too long, and it’s long enough already. I would just add that the open view has the advantage of being able to offer you this encouragement: There is no eternal divine blueprint your life should take with every single choice you make. Sometimes, perhaps more often than we think, there are two or more avenues to take and God is perfectly happy with either one. So, assuming you WERE overly sensitive in leaving the DTS and that it WAS fine with God for you to stay there, you have not now missed God and placed yourself out of God’s will by leaving the DTS. So be at peace Bro! Dedicate your heart and intention to God and then go for the gusto of life!
Hey Springs! I had this dream last night. I was walking in a large wooded area, there was this pink dinosaur, it...
Keep smiling,
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde
Edited by - TGB on 10/18/2002 04:17:07 AM
Edited by - TGB on 10/18/2002 04:19:16 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 10/17/2002 11:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Timlingsquote:
Now I know that when God directly says stuff to guide us, we should do what he says. But what should we do when we don't get an answer? I also know it's good to acknowledge God in every area of our lives, but to what extent should we seek God's direction in what to do?
I agree with Springs in that even when we don't hear the Lord telling us where to tread we can be confident in knowing how God wants us to act. We follow our heart and use our head and pray that as we step out in faith that God will direct us. Perhaps your feeling this strong sense about this NOT being the place where you were called to be is an example of this very act. It sounds to me like you are being sensitive to the Spirit by leaving thus you are walking in obedience led by faith, (especially since you don't have any clear direction YET) and I believe God will bless you for this. We walk by faith NOT by sight.
Lord, please light my brothers way so he can see where you want him to walk more clearly. Amen!
I will be praying that God will reveal his direction for you.
trosie
"You can't have a law without if reflecting some worldview ... For all law is the imposition of someone's values." Brandon
Edited by - trosie on 10/18/2002 04:19:18 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 10/18/2002 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | You guys are all great...cheers for your encouragement!
Tom: It all seems a bit odd. You’re at a DTS but decide to leave because your going was your idea and not God’s; but you also admit that your desiring to do something and God’s will that you do it are not necessary at odds. And you’re not claiming they were at odds here. Or are you? So why DID you leave? And how did you know that God wanted you to leave?
Tim: yeah, I think I am over-sensitive. And too easily inward-looking. Just felt God say something in my spirit, that's all. And couldn't ignore it as much as I wanted to.
Tom: then there was no reason for you to question your being there and I’m wondering why you did.
Tim: During the application process, there was quite a lot of me wondering whether it was what God wanted. But once I had got there, I was happy, it was what i wanted to be doing etc. God brought up the subject really...
Tom: But the fact that a) you now feel “lost,” and b) you posted as you did leads me to think you may be expecting more explicit/obvious divine leading than is—can I say it?—“normal” and that you would have been perfectly fine staying at the DTS.
Tim: Also yeah... perhaps I am expecting more from God than he promises to provide. It's just that I look at bits of the bible and conclude that God does direct people's lives in quite explicit ways sometimes. What do you take it to mean by 'being led by the spirit'?
Tom: There is no eternal divine blueprint your life should take with every single choice you make. Sometimes, perhaps more often than we think, there are two or more avenues to take and God is perfectly happy with either one.
Tim: I know all this. But surely guidance becomes more important with the open view? With a 'blueprint' worldview, what we choose is already known. Whereas with OV, you can actually choose out of God's plan. I know that God can work us back into it, and we are probably on plan Z second time through the alphabet (to quote a certain Dr Boyd), but hey.
Trosie: It sounds to me like you are being sensitive to the Spirit by leaving thus you are walking in obedience led by faith, (especially since you don't have any clear direction YET) and I believe God will bless you for this.
Tim: Thank you for your encouragement. My problem is that I am often quite resistant to the Spirit's leadings. So coming home was rather a test of faith...can I obey God in this? It also meant I could talk through a whole load of stuff with my parents too, which was great! It's also been a chance for me to finally let go of some of my own ambitions and instead listen to what God for my life. God works in and through all things.
Trosie: I will be praying that God will reveal his direction for you.
Tim: That's really encouraging stuff!
Well, gotta make some phonecalls.
loads of love from the UK
Tim
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 10/18/2002 2:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Tim: Now I know that when God directly says stuff to guide us, we should do what he says. But what should we do when we don't get an answer? I also know it's good to acknowledge God in every area of our lives, but to what extent should we seek God's direction in what to do?
Alan: Regarding the whole 'guidance' thing, I'd like to challenge some prevailing assumptions. If you do a study on the term "God's will" in Scripture you will find it used in two distinct ways: (1) it sometimes refers to God's sovereign will (e.g., Eph. 1:11, Luke 22:42, James 4:5)--things that God has decreed will happen--(2) other times it refers to God's moral will (e.g., Rom. 12:2, 1 Thess 4:3)--God's commands that apply to all people generally. Sometimes we find examples of God's individualized leading in Scripture, but in all cases in which the details are recorded the Biblical pattern seems to be that such individualized direction from God is (a) very clear (nowhere does anyone say "I think God is telling me ..."), (b) supernatural (e.g., angelic appearances, clear and vivid visions like with Peter in Acts 10, audible conversations with God as when Elijah heard God's "still small voice", burning bushes, etc.), (c) generally contrary to human wisdom (e.g., God's telling Gideon to send most of his army away), (d) unexpected and rare. There is no suggestion in Scripture that receiving individualized guidance from God is supposed to be a normative experience for Christian living. Nowhere are we taught to develop a specialized skill of "hearing the voice of God"--some kind of spiritual "sixth sense"--in order to function at optimum levels in the Christian life. Rather, what Scripture does explicitly teach is that we follow God's moral will (i.e., 10 commandments, love thy neighbor, etc.) in all things and make decisions that accord with sound wisdom and common sense (Proverbs). Since we know that God can and does at times give individualized guidance we can go ahead and make our decisions and rest in the confidence that God will redirect us in a manner that is CLEAR if he needs to. So, Tim, I want to encourage you to always make the wisest moral decision that you can and trust God for the rest. He will guide you, but you do not need to receive individualized guidance from God before you make your decisions. When you look back on events in retrospect you will see the hand of God directing the events of your life, but Scripture does not teach that we are to look for God's individualized guidance before making our decisions.
May God bless you as you strive to do His will,
Alan
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 10/19/2002 3:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Alan,
You make some good points.
It's a fine line to discern between "The Lord told me", intuition, influence and emotion. Gets complicated, it does.
My wife recently obtained her nursing assistance license. We thought this was where God was leading her. Well, two jobs she secured both fell through; one was due to the low grade working conditions and attitudes at the first nursing home, the other in that she hurt her back. So we kind of asked ourselves "Why, Lord?". (Say, does a period go after the quotations marks? I forget!) Anyway, she's gone on to obtain work in another field and is very, very happy. (She was a school bus driver, got out of that after 5 years, had her license changed back to a regular class D, and had to get a class B again so she could drive for the city. This after she vowed she was done driving commercially!) So, what was up with that whole thing with the schooling for her nursing assistant license and the loss of two jobs of which we thought this is where she belonged?. But . . .
To me, what's so important is that no matter what . . . no matter WHAT, you trust that God is able to get you where you need to be. If my wife doesn't know now what happened, perhaps God has plans later for usage of her license. Perhaps not. Regardless, if it means enough to God that one be placed somewhere at a certain time, He is EASILY able to communicate that in countless ways to insure He gets the job done. It's a pain in the you-know-what and frustrating to go through the "WHAT DO YOU WANT, ALREADY?" time period (and then to think you missed the whole thing after all's said and done), but God is able!
These days I pay little attention to what I feel. It has to be something pretty outrageously strong and big (as an issue) before I give much credence to "The Lord is telling me to . . ." I just don't have a lot of faith in myself is what it is; I've been wrong too many times in the past and don't have time anymore to worry about it. Someone might say, "Oh, but what if it is God? What if you don't listen and you miss God?" What, is God so helpless He can't cut through the muck and mire of my capabilities of really confusing the issue and make His will known? Sure He can. I rest, therefore. And I know that when it's really God, when it's really important, He'll make sure I know it's Him.
For resting in His arms,
Starkman
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 10/19/2002 4:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey
Alan: Regarding the whole 'guidance' thing, I'd like to challenge some prevailing assumptions. If you do a study on the term "God's will" in Scripture you will find it used in two distinct ways: (1) it sometimes refers to God's sovereign will (e.g., Eph. 1:11, Luke 22:42, James 4:5)--things that God has decreed will happen--(2) other times it refers to God's moral will (e.g., Rom. 12:2, 1 Thess 4:3)--God's commands that apply to all people generally.
Tim: All well and good. My only problem is that in scripture I see a third type of guidance, where God guides people to do stuff. This sort of stuff is usually either good or just morally neutral. You see it the OT, with prophets and...well everyone. From Abraham to Malachi, as it were. God has definite moral commands, i.e. don't worship idols, murder, work on the sabbath. But he also has other guidings, such as telling Abram to go to Cannan, like telling Joshua how the battle should be won, like telling Ezekiel to lie on his side for 390 days as a prophetic act.
This also follows on into the NT, primarily with Jesus, who didn't do anything except his Father's will, and then continuing post-pentecost with the whole church. It's a holy spirit thing.
Alan: There is no suggestion in Scripture that receiving individualized guidance from God is supposed to be a normative experience for Christian living. Nowhere are we taught to develop a specialized skill of "hearing the voice of God"--some kind of spiritual "sixth sense"--in order to function at optimum levels in the Christian life.
Tim: Where does it say that? In my bible it talks loads about people being 'led by the Spirit', and recommends that as a good way of doing life.
In my life I know that God has 'told' me to do certain things. They've always been good in the long-run, although sometimes hard at the time. Is this your experience? Is this anyone out there's experience?
I think this issue can quite easily polarise charismatic evangelical vs conservative evangelical Christians (the terms may be different in US - please ask if clarification is needed!). At my university, I came across a lot of teaching that said God only speaks through the bible, so we don't need to spend time "listening to God". But that just doesn't match with my experience and what I see in the bible.
But hey!
Starkman: These days I pay little attention to what I feel. It has to be something pretty outrageously strong and big (as an issue) before I give much credence to "The Lord is telling me to . . ." I just don't have a lot of faith in myself is what it is; I've been wrong too many times in the past and don't have time anymore to worry about it.
Tim: I know where you're coming from. A lot of people around me have been very badly burnt either by trying to follow God's leadings, or by other people who are convinced they have heard God. When it goes wrong, it can go very badly wrong!
If it's helpful, this is how I see the whole issue. Humans are made up of body, soul and spirit. The body is the physical lump of flesh. The soul is the bit of us that can choose things, think things and feel things. The spirit is the bit that communicates with God, and him with us. Before we get saved, we work bottom up:
Satan --> world --> body --> soul
We live according to our bodily desires.
But when we get saved, we get born again from above. We get God's life in us, in our spirit. So we should aim for...
God --> our spirit --> soul --> body --> world
That's the way we're designed to work, bringing God's influence and blessing into the world. Within this, it's pretty essential that we get God's leading in our spirit from his Spirit.
Does this make sense?
Lots of love
Tim
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 10/19/2002 11:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Appreciate the response, Tim. I'll do my best to answer your comments:
quote:
Alan: Regarding the whole 'guidance' thing, I'd like to challenge some prevailing assumptions. If you do a study on the term "God's will" in Scripture you will find it used in two distinct ways: (1) it sometimes refers to God's sovereign will (e.g., Eph. 1:11, Luke 22:42, James 4:5)--things that God has decreed will happen--(2) other times it refers to God's moral will (e.g., Rom. 12:2, 1 Thess 4:3)--God's commands that apply to all people generally.
Tim: All well and good. My only problem is that in scripture I see a third type of guidance, where God guides people to do stuff. This sort of stuff is usually either good or just morally neutral. You see it the OT, with prophets and...well everyone. From Abraham to Malachi, as it were. God has definite moral commands, i.e. don't worship idols, murder, work on the sabbath. But he also has other guidings, such as telling Abram to go to Cannan, like telling Joshua how the battle should be won, like telling Ezekiel to lie on his side for 390 days as a prophetic act.
This also follows on into the NT, primarily with Jesus, who didn't do anything except his Father's will, and then continuing post-pentecost with the whole church. It's a holy spirit thing.
I grant that there are many examples of individualized guidance in Scripture. Indeed I made that very point in my earlier post. What is essential to notice, however, is that there a pattern to the Biblical examples that is often NOT present when people today speak of "being led by the Spirit". First, the Biblical examples are always CLEAR. Second, they are often supernatural (miracles, prophetic visions, etc.). Third, they are often contrary to human wisdom (hence the need for God to provide clear direction). Fourth, they are often unexpected. Fifth, they seem to be rare--the occasional experiences of a relatively small handful of people. Virtually every Biblical example of individualized guidance pertains to someone who was either a prophet, an apostle, a ruler, or Jesus. These are just the people who played the most pivotal roles in guiding Israel and the early church. We would expect for God to give them occasional specialized guidance. But if receiving individualized guidance from God was expected to be a normative experience for the average Christian, then how come the NT contains NO systematic and explicit teaching on how to discern God's specific will for one's life?
quote:
Alan: There is no suggestion in Scripture that receiving individualized guidance from God is supposed to be a normative experience for Christian living. Nowhere are we taught to develop a specialized skill of "hearing the voice of God"--some kind of spiritual "sixth sense"--in order to function at optimum levels in the Christian life.
Tim: Where does it say that? In my bible it talks loads about people being 'led by the Spirit', and recommends that as a good way of doing life.
I did a search on the phrase "led by the Spirit" and here's what I found out. The phrase is used only four times in the Bible. Two of those (Matt. 4:1, Luke 4:1) refer to Jesus' being led by the Spirit to go out in the wilderness for forty days. We aren't told exactly what form this leading took, but I suspect it was something more clear than Jesus' feeling a nudge on the inside. The other two passages are Romans 8:14 and Galatians 5:18. Here's the immediate context for both:
quote:
Rom 8:12-14 (12)Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. (13)For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, (14)because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Gal 5:16- (16)So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. (17)For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. (18)But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. (19)The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; (20)idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions (21)and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (22)But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23)gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (24)Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. (25)Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. (26)Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
In context, the phrase "led by the Spirit" in both passages is contrasted with living "according to the sinful nature". In other words, to be led by the Spirit is just to live righteously, to obey God's moral will as revealed in His Spirit-inspired Word. In neither passage are we taught to develop some specialized spiritual skill to discern the inner promptings of God so that we can make God-honoring decisions.
Here's the basic problem as I see it. The Bible gives us some clues as to God's sovereign will. It spells out in complete detail his moral will--all the moral principles we need to know to live a Godly and effective life are taught in the Bible. But God's moral will applies to all people generally. It won't tell me if God has a specific individualized will for my life or what the content of that will is. Yet many Christians believe that they've somehow got to figure out what God's specific will for them is BEFORE they can make proper decisions. Since they can't find this individualized will in the Bible they have to look to other things: putting "fleeces" before God, looking for "open doors", paying close attention to inner "promptings", looking for circumstantial "confirmation", seeing if they "have a peace" about the decision, etc. The problems with this approach are threefold: First, the Bible doesn't teach that we ought to look to any of these things as authoritative indicators of God's will. Second, receiving "promptings" and detecting "confimations" are inherently subjective. There is a serious danger here of ascribing divine authority to one's subjective perspective, as both you and Starkman have pointed out. Third, seeking God's will in this way promotes spiritual immaturity. Think of it like this. I don't know if you're a parent, Tim, but would you want your child to be continually dependent on you for making decisions? To continually come to you and ask you to tell them specifically what to do so that they can make their decisions? I doubt that you would. Instead, you would teach your child good general principles to live by and encourage them to make and take responsibility for their own decisions. But then isn't it reasonable to expect that God would want us to operate in the same way? He has given us in the Bible all the general principles we need to live a godly life. To continually look to God for specialized direction strikes me much like a person who has not grown up and learned how to make sound decisions on their own but still needs their parents to walk them by the hand.
quote:
Tim: In my life I know that God has 'told' me to do certain things. They've always been good in the long-run, although sometimes hard at the time. Is this your experience? Is this anyone out there's experience?
I have no reason to doubt that God has "told" you certain things. And there have been time when I have felt that God was speaking directly to me. For the record, I think that God does "prompt" and "nudge" people. What I don't see taught in the Bible is that we have to develop some special skill of discerning among these subjective promptings in order to make godly decisions. What I do see taught and practiced by the apostles is making decisions that accord with God's moral will and with wisdom. Nowhere do I see anyone trying to read "confirmations" into circumstantial evidence or decide whether a given "prompting" really is from God.
quote:
Tim: If it's helpful, this is how I see the whole issue. Humans are made up of body, soul and spirit. The body is the physical lump of flesh. The soul is the bit of us that can choose things, think things and feel things. The spirit is the bit that communicates with God, and him with us. Before we get saved, we work bottom up:
Satan --> world --> body --> soul
We live according to our bodily desires.
But when we get saved, we get born again from above. We get God's life in us, in our spirit. So we should aim for...
God --> our spirit --> soul --> body --> world
That's the way we're designed to work, bringing God's influence and blessing into the world. Within this, it's pretty essential that we get God's leading in our spirit from his Spirit.
Nice explanation, Tim. I am prepared to grant what you say here (though I am still unsure about the whole trichotomist/dichotomist debate regarding human nature). The issue, though, is how God communicates his leading to our spirits. As I see it, this takes place primarily through His Word. As we see in the passages from Romans and Galatians above, being "led by the Spirit" means righteous living, for which the Bible is our guide. To recap, the idea that we need to look for individualized direct communications from God to our "spirit man" in order to effectively "bring God's influence and blessing into the world" is, I submit, unwarranted by Scripture, dangerous (it leads to ascribing divine authority to subjective impressions), and promotes spiritual immaturity.
God bless you, brother Tim.
Alan
PS: If there are any specific passages in Scripture that you think support your position let me know so we can discuss them.
Edited by - Alan Rhoda on 10/20/2002 04:24:08 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 10/20/2002 6:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Alan
Thanks for your response. Good to think this through biblically!
Ok, I'm looking through acts at the moment, trying to see how 'guidance' works there. I know this view isn't agreed by everyone, but I see Acts as an example of how Christians lived post-pentecost. And seeing as we're still post-pentecost and Jesus hasn't yet returned, the way things happened them should be in some way normative of the way God will work now.
A few examples I've picked up:
* People (such as Peter or Stephen) spoke to groups of people, full of the Holy Spirit, e.g. Acts 4:8, 7:55
* The Spirit tells Philip to speak to the guy in the chariot - Acts 8:29
* God tells Ananias to go and speak to Paul in Damascus through a vision - Acts 9:10
* The Spirit tells a group of Christians, whilst they are worshipping and fasting, to set apart Paul and Barnabus for the work God's got for them - Acts 13:2
* Paul tells some Christians in Ephesus that he would return to them "if it is God's will" - Acts 18:21
Basically, there is lots of stuff where God seems to be directing what goes on in the formation of the early church. He does this in various ways, sometimes just through promptings by the Spirit, or through more dramatic visions and the like.
Should this be normative, or only for the special Christians then?
Alan: What is essential to notice, however, is that there a pattern to the Biblical examples that is often NOT present when people today speak of "being led by the Spirit". First, the Biblical examples are always CLEAR.
Tim: Yeah...but maybe God is speaking to us clearly and we're not listening right? or not paying attention?
Alan: Fifth, they seem to be rare--the occasional experiences of a relatively small handful of people. Virtually every Biblical example of individualized guidance pertains to someone who was either a prophet, an apostle, a ruler, or Jesus. These are just the people who played the most pivotal roles in guiding Israel and the early church.
Tim: But maybe that's because the bible only records the people who had more of a dramatic part to play in God's plan? The examples I give above aren't all Apostles either. Is God not being truthful when he says that all flesh will have the Spirit poured out on them, and that they will prophecy/see vision/have dreams? Surely it's for everyone...
Alan: In context, the phrase "led by the Spirit" in both passages is contrasted with living "according to the sinful nature". In other words, to be led by the Spirit is just to live righteously, to obey God's moral will as revealed in His Spirit-inspired Word.
Tim: Isn't it more than that? If it was just to behave right, Paul would have said so. Being led by the Spirit is just that, to let the Spirit lead us in the way we should go.
Alan: In neither passage are we taught to develop some specialized spiritual skill to discern the inner promptings of God so that we can make God-honoring decisions.
Tim: I suspect that is because no early Christians had problems with it! Being filled with the Spirit from conversion was the norm, and so people just experienced as part of the package. Whereas we have had hundreds of years of history where the Holy Spirit was pretty much forgotten about, and so the concept is still a bit alien at times.
Alan: Think of it like this. I don't know if you're a parent, Tim, but would you want your child to be continually dependent on you for making decisions? To continually come to you and ask you to tell them specifically what to do so that they can make their decisions? I doubt that you would.
Tim: Maybe. Alas, I am 21 and single, so don't have any experience of that.
But my understanding of God is that he wants us to live lives of not increasing independence, but increasing dependence on him. He wants us to grow in responsibility and faithfulness in what God has given us, but not in independence. I think there's a difference.
Alan: Nowhere do I see anyone trying to read "confirmations" into circumstantial evidence or decide whether a given "prompting" really is from God.
Tim: We are told to test all things, and to discern between spirits however.
I do not think that prophecy/leadings/visions etc are on the same level of scripture. But they can have divine authority within a specific situation that God is dealing with. Otherwise, we could just ignore God's leadings/nudgings by saying that don't have any authority. Hmm, not sure that pleases God.
But there we go.
Thanks for the input bro!
love
Tim
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 10/21/2002 1:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Alan: Third, seeking God's will in this way promotes spiritual immaturity. Think of it like this. I don't know if you're a parent, Tim, but would you want your child to be continually dependent on you for making decisions? To continually come to you and ask you to tell them specifically what to do so that they can make their decisions? I doubt that you would. Instead, you would teach your child good general principles to live by and encourage them to make and take responsibility for their own decisions. But then isn't it reasonable to expect that God would want us to operate in the same way? He has given us in the Bible all the general principles we need to live a godly life. To continually look to God for specialized direction strikes me much like a person who has not grown up and learned how to make sound decisions on their own but still needs their parents to walk them by the hand.
My dear brother, the bible teaches us to become like little children for such is the Kingdom of God. The bible instructs us to acquire childlike FAITH. Trust and obey there is no greater way! In ALL our ways we are to acknowledge Him and HE WILL DIRECT our paths.
The way I see it the goal of FOLLOWING Christ is to allow God to increase in directing us while at the same time putting aside our selfish ambitions and desires. The goal it to die to ourselves in order that we will be free to FOLLOW Christ. Dependence? YES, TOTAL dependence and submission are the goals we are to strive toward! To be totally DEPENDENT on God is to find life and freedom. I need him EVERY hour. It is no longer me that lives but Christ that lives in me. The bible affirms to us that the sheep HEAR (in the spirit) God's voice.
Gosh, IF it is true that depending on God's leading is immature than I must be one of God's more immature children because I need and desire for God to hold my hand, heck even carry me at times, in ALL of my life. However, I don't believe that it is immature to depend and seek God. Actually I believe this is God's heart and desire for us. Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you, says the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope."
Blessings,
trosie
Edited by - trosie on 10/21/2002 06:48:07 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 10/21/2002 2:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Nice examples from Acts, Tim. By way of response I'll refer you to an essay written by Greg Koukl. His study on "Decision Making and the Will of God" has greatly influenced my thinking in this area. The other major influence on my thinking is a book by the same title by Garry Friesen. Anyway, Koukl's essay can be found at "http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/actsvoic.htm". He specifically addresses the examples of individual leading in the book of Acts.
Tim: Yeah...but maybe God is speaking to us clearly and we're not listening right? or not paying attention?
Alan: If "hearing the voice of God" in this manner were an essential skill for Christian living, one would expect it to be systematically and explicitly taught in Scripture. Where is it so taught? As Koukl points out in his essay, in almost every case of individual leading in Acts, the ones receiving God's direction weren't looking for it.
Tim: Maybe the Bible only records the people who had more of a dramatic part to play in God's plan? The examples I give above aren't all Apostles either. Is God not being truthful when he says that all flesh will have the Spirit poured out on them, and that they will prophecy/see vision/have dreams? Surely it's for everyone...
Alan: Joel 2:28, the passage you're alluding does say that God will pour out His Spirit on all people and that there will be prophecies, dreams, and visions. But it doesn't say that ALL your sons and daughters will prophecy, or that ALL old men will dream dreams, or that ALL young men will see visions. Prophecy is a gift of the the Spirit that only SOME believers have (1 Cor. 12:13, 12:29).
quote:
Alan: In context, the phrase "led by the Spirit" in both passages is contrasted with living "according to the sinful nature". In other words, to be led by the Spirit is just to live righteously, to obey God's moral will as revealed in His Spirit-inspired Word.
Tim: Isn't it more than that? If it was just to behave right, Paul would have said so. Being led by the Spirit is just that, to let the Spirit lead us in the way we should go.
If we are to let the text be our guide, and we should, we must resist any tendency to read more into the text than it says. In the passages I cited from Galatians 5 and Romans 8 it is clear that Paul is using the phrase "led by the Spirit" to mean righteous living. If you think it means more than that, then you need to justify that from the text.
quote:
Alan: In neither passage are we taught to develop some specialized spiritual skill to discern the inner promptings of God so that we can make God-honoring decisions.
Tim: I suspect that is because no early Christians had problems with it! Being filled with the Spirit from conversion was the norm, and so people just experienced as part of the package. Whereas we have had hundreds of years of history where the Holy Spirit was pretty much forgotten about, and so the concept is still a bit alien at times.
I think you give too much credit to the early Christians. I attended a Pentecostal church for five years. All the time I was there I was encouraged to listen to God's inner voice, to attend to promptings of the Spirit, to listen for the Spirit's leading. What I found in practice, however, was that the very subjective nature of such "leadings", the fact that they were seldom, if ever, clear enough to be sure that I was really hearing God and that it wasn't my "flesh" or Satan's tempting me away from God's perfect will by offering me something second best. Without exception, every person that I know who holds a similar view of divine guidance struggles frequently with doubts. I agree with you that the early Christians didn't struggle with this like we do, but I think that's because they didn't approach decision making like we usually do. If they had, they would have faced all the same problems that we face today in trying to live out this subjectivistic model of divine guidance.
Tim: My understanding of God is that he wants us to live lives not of increasing independence, but of increasing dependence on him.
Trosie: The bible teaches us to become like little children for such is the Kingdom of God. The bible instructs us to acquire childlike FAITH....In ALL our ways we are to acknowledge Him and HE WILL DIRECT our paths.
The way I see it the goal of FOLLOWING Christ is to allow God to increase in directing us while at the same time putting aside our selfish ambitions and desires. The goal it to die to ourselves in order that we will be free to FOLLOW Christ. Dependence? YES, TOTAL dependence and submission are the goals we are to strive toward! To be totally DEPENDENT on God is to find life and freedom. I need him EVERY hour. It is no longer me that lives but Christ that lives in me. The bible affirms to us that the sheep HEAR (in the spirit) God's voice.
Gosh, IF it is true that depending on God's leading is immature than I must be one of God's more immature children because I need and desire for God to hold my hand, heck even carry me at times, in ALL of my life. However, I don't believe that it is immature to depend and seek God. Actually I believe this is God's heart and desire for us. Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you, says the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope."
Alan: Several comments here. First, while the Bible says that we need to COME to God like children (Mark 10:15; Luke 18:17), the NT repeatedly admonishes us not to REMAIN as little children (1 Cor 13:11; 1 Cor 14:20; Heb 5:14). Second, while the Bible does teach us to acknowledge Him in all our ways and that He will direct our paths, it does not say that this direction comes through any kind of subjective leading. We acknowledge Him when we obey His commands. He will direct our paths, but we don't have to go looking for individualized guidance. If God needs to give us such specific guidance He will do so in unmistakable terms. Third, I am not denying cultivating a sense of dependence on God (John 15:5), but I am challenging the view that acknowledging one's dependence on God requires us to discern God's individual leadings before we can make our proper decisions. Fourth, the passage about the sheep hearing Jesus' voice (John 10) does not teach that we are to cultivate some skill of listening to God's inner voice. In v.6 it is explicitly stated that the remarks about hearing His voice are a figure of speech. Jesus' meaning becomes clear in vv. 27-28. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me and I give them eternal life." Note the sequence: they hear His voice, they follow, He gives them eternal life. The voice spoken of in John 10 is a figure of speech for the inner working of the Holy Spirit that leads to our salvation. It results in salvation; it's not the result of salvation. Hearing the voice of Jesus here simply means responding to His call to salvation. Fifth, regarding Jeremiah 29:11, the verse is specifically addressed to the plural "you" of the nation of Israel, so any application to individuals today is not a direct teaching of the passage. Also, the verse says nothing about God's revealing these plans to His people so that they can make decisions. All He says here is that He has plans and that if the Israelites trust in Him, God will bless them.
That's all I've got time for now. Any further feedback is much appreciated.
God bless,
Alan
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 10/22/2002 5:07 PM (GMT -6) | | For me the beautiful part of Tim's listening to God's call was this: quote:
It also meant I could talk through a whole load of stuff with my parents too, which was great! It's also been a chance for me to finally let go of some of my own ambitions and instead listen to what God for my life. God works in and through all things
Alan, I personally believe we CAN be directed by the Spirit and that we CAN hear the voice of God's call for us in major decisions. Whether one believes this or not is irrelevant to the truth that when our hearts are open to God,as Tim said, He will work in and through ALL things for our good.
Here is a scripture that I came upon today that I'd like to share: Col. 1: 9-12 "We....do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the KNOWLEDGE OF HIS WILL in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you may have a WALK WORTHY OF THE LORD, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light."
Blessings,
trosie
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 10/22/2002 5:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Anyone ever hear the old joke about the preacher who was on the roof of his house when in a great and rising flood a boat came by and implored the preacher to get in? The preacher said that he had prayed to God and that God was going to save him from this flood. So the boat went on. Then when the water got all the way up to the edge of the roof another boat came by and again implored the preacher to get in. But again the preacher said that God was going to save him. Finally, when the water was lapping at his feet a helicopter came flying over and yet again implored the preacher to grab the rope but yet again the preacher said that God was going to save him. Well, sure enough he died and when he came before the pearly gates he said to St. Peter, "What up? I prayed to God, why didn't he save me from the flood?" To which St. Peter answered, "What do you mean, we sent two boats and a helicopter."
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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