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|  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/22/2002 11:08 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/22/2002 6:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | Meyendorff, p.158-9
quote: For Theodore the icon of Christ is the best possible illustration of what is meant by the hypostatic union. What appears on the image is the very hypostasis of God the Word in the flesh. In the Byzantine tradition the inscription around the halo surrounding the head of Jesus says "The One who is," the equivalent of the sacred name YHWE, the name of God, whose person is revealed, but whose essence is inaccessible. It is neither God's indescribable divinity nor His human nature alone which is represented on an icon, but the person of God the Son who took flesh: "Every portrait," writes Theodore, "is the portrait of an hypostasis, and not of a nature."
To paint an image of the divine essence or of God before His incarnation is obviously impossible; just as it is impossible to represent human nature as such, other than symbolically. Thus, symbolic images of Old Testament thcophanies are not yet "icons" in a true sense. But the icon of Christ is different. With bodily eyes, the hypostasis of the Logos could be seen in the flesh, although its divine essence remained hidden; it is this mystery of the Incarnation which makes possible the sacred icons and requires their veneration.
The defense of images forced Byzantine thought to reaffirm the full concrete humanity of Christ.
quote: The triduum of Easter-the three days when Christ's humanity suffered the common fate of man, yet remained mysteriously en-hypostasized in the one divine hypostasis of the Logos-is graphically expressed in the traditional Byzantine iconography of the Resurrection: Christ trampling down the gates of Sheol and lifting Adam and Eve back to life. Better than any conceptual language, and better also than the image of any particular event or aspect of the mystery-such as the empty tomb, or even the crucifixion itself-this icon points to the dynamic, soteriological dimension of Christ's death: God's intrusion into the domain usurped by the devil and the breaking up of his control over humanity. The same mystery of hypostatic unity, which remained unbroken in death itself. . .
quote: ... on Good Friday, at vespers, at the very moment when Christ gave up the spirit, the first hymns of the Resurrection are beginning to resound: "Myrrh is fitting for the dead, but Christ has shown Himself free from corruption." The hidden, yet decisive, triumph over death ...
quote: One discovers in these texts the ultimate, soteriological reason why Cyril's theopaschite formula became a criterion of orthodoxy in sixth-century Byzantine theology: death was vanquished precisely because God Himself had tasted of it hypostatically in the humanity which He had assumed. This is the paschal message of Christianity.
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/22/2002 6:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | Meyendorff, p.164
quote: But by rejecting God, human freedom, in fact, destroys itself. Outside of God, man ceases to be authentically and fully human. He is enslaved to the devil through death. This idea, which is central to Maximian thought and which made him profess so strongly the existence of a human, created will in Christ, serves as the basis of the Byzantine understanding of the destiny of man: participation in God, or "deification" (theosis), as the goal of human existence.
En-hypostasized in the Logos, Christ's humanity, in virtue of the "communication of idioms," is penetrated with divine "energy." It is, therefore, a deified humanity, which, however, does not in any way lose its human characteristics. Quite to the contrary. These characteristics become even more real and authentic by contact with the divine model according to which they were created. In this deified humanity of Christ's, man is called to participate, and to share in its deification. This is the meaning of sacramental life and the basis of Christian spirituality. The Christian is called not to an "imitation" of Jesus-a purely extrinsic and moral act-but, as Nicholas Cabasilas puts it, to "life in Christ"
quote: "Thus for Maximus the doctrinal basis of man's deification is clearly to be found in hypostatic unity between the divine and the human nature ' in Christ." The man Jesus is God hypostatically, and, therefore, in Him there is a "communication" (perlchoresis-circumincessio) of the "energies"'" divine and human. This "communication" also reaches those who are "in Christ." But they, of course, are human hypostases, and are united to God not hypostatically but only "by grace" or "by energy." "A man who becomes obedient to God in all things hears God saying: "I said: you are gods, [Jn 10:34]; he then is God and is called 'God' not by nature or by relation fbut by [divine] decree and grace." aa It is not through his own activity or "energy" that man can be deified-this would be Pelagianism-but by divine "energy," to which his human activity is "obedient"; between the two there is a "synergy," of which the relation of the two energies in Christ is the ontological basis. But there is no confusion of natures, just as there cannot be any participation in divine essence by man. This is the theology of deification which we will also find in Gregory Palamas: "God in His completeness deifies those who are worthy of this, by uniting Himself with them, not hypostatically-that belonged to Christ alone-nor essentially, but through a small part of the uncreated energies and the uncreated divinity . . . while yet being entirely present in each." Actually, the Byzantine Council of 1351, which confirmed the theology of Palamas, defined it as a "development" of the decrees of the Sixth Ecumenical Council (680) on the two wills or "energies" of Christ.
quote: In "deification," man achieves the supreme goal for which he was created. This goal, already realized in Christ by a unilateral action of God's love, represents both the meaning of human history and a judgment over man. It is open to man's response and free effort.
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/22/2002 6:56 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 12/22/2002 7:28 PM (GMT -6) |   | I think the "self-induced amnesia" analogy is excellent. But Morris doesn't himself ADVOCATE that analogy does he? He embraces the "two minds" Christology, doesn't he?
Greg
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 12/22/2002 8:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | Doc: I think the "self-induced amnesia" analogy is excellent. But Morris doesn't himself ADVOCATE that analogy does he? He embraces the "two minds" Christology, doesn't he?
Tom: He advocates the two-natures view. Does that entail the two-minds view as well?
Tom
"When you mix things up they get messy" Fred | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 12/22/2002 8:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | Yo dude, we're on-line at the same time.
The only difference, in my world I'M SUPPOSED TO BE SLEEPING!
The two natures view does NOT "entail" the "two minds view." I just thought that Morris denies the Kenotic view in favor of the two minds view. (Remember, Kenotic Christologists affirm, at least in principle, the "two natures" of Christ [though many of us question how meaningful this language is today]).
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SIM Registered Member
 Date Joined Nov 2002 Total Posts : 90 | Posted 12/23/2002 7:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | To Dr. Boyd: I've read your belief about God's infinite forknowledge of ALL possible future counterfactuals. And my response to that is, as impressive as this is, other than the AMOUNT of knowledge, what difference does it make that God knows all of this, from our standpoint? If God is hands-off in one universe of possibilities, that's still hands-off no matter how much it is multiplied. Am I missing something?
Also, what would you suggest I read of your writings to understand your beliefs more completely?
Considering the season, I thought it appropriate to revisit the beginning of this thread. Tom's Initial Post Revisitedquote:
1. It's true that Jesus is fully God 2. It's true that Jesus is fully human 3. It's true that to be God is to be infinite 4. It's true that to be human is to be finite. 5. To claim something is both infinite and finite is to posit a paradox. 6. The incarnation is a paradox.
Since we affirm paradox in the incarnation why object to affirming both that God possesses EDF and that we are libertarianly free?
Some thoughts I've had: The statement, "God is Jesus", is true, but it doesn't necessarily equate with "Jesus is God" when that statement means that Jesus is the full expression of God. To me that's like saying that "God is love" is equivalent to "love is God", or all that God is is love. C.S. Lewis writes that to say they are equivalent is leaving out all the rest of God's attributes.
The conclusionary quote below is a comment about the problematic view that Jesus is the ultimate anthropomorphism, and thereby the definitive source for understanding divine providence:
quote: First of all, through Jesus God is revealed as triune. Jesus is the incarnated second person of this Trinity, equal in essence yet distinct in function from the other members of the Godhead. This complicates any attempt to draw direct, unilateral conclusions concerning the triune God from the person of Jesus alone. Secondly, the incarnation event likewise complicates [this] method. In the incarnation Jesus assumed the particular role of accomplishing salvation through his union with humanity in a way substantially different from God’s previous relationship with people. The uniqueness of this event and its implications with regard to Jesus’ role as redeemer again makes concrete assertions difficult. Finally, Jesus’ acquired human nature establishes Jesus as the consummate mediator between God and man. From this position Jesus is best understood as a model for human responsibility and obedience rather than God’s relational nature. It is best to understand Jesus as an aspectual anthropomorphism, genuinely revealing God in human form, but not completely revealing all that he is.
In sum, any argument simply equating the person of Jesus to God’s relational nature collapses the trinitarian distinctions between the divine persons, minimalizes the uniqueness of the incarnation, and marginalizes the significance of Christ’s human nature (http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/scholars/freewilltheism.htm) (The Jesus Who Never Knew by Craig Thompson)
A second thought: Supposedly the OV takes God out of being ultimately responsible for evil. But a good argument against this thinking:
quote: Theodicy—reconciling the goodness of God to the existence of evil—is one of the secondary interests of the openness school. They want to protect God from evil, but it doesn't take God off the hook. They say God is all-powerful to begin with. He created the world and the universe. But he creates it on the condition that he will remove his sovereignty from the scene and blank out the future. So, supposedly, that gives culpability to humans when it comes to the problem of evil. But the ultimate culpability still rests with God because, if he was all-powerful in creating the world, he could have created it as a place where the creature wouldn't have the freedom to commit evil.
It becomes a percentage thing again. Let's say God retains 30 percent and gives us 70 percent when it comes to human decision. He's still got 30 percent responsibility for keeping the universe going on these terms. Openness does not absolve him from the problem of evil. At any time he could pull back and say, "The heck with it. There's too much evil in the world—Auschwitz and aids in Africa and all the rest. I'll just call it off here." But he doesn't. He keeps it going. That's a pretty big loss. And so God is very limited. The question I raised in my book The Inexhaustible God was, What percentage of power, then, does God have in this scheme? Does he have 20 percent and the advancing world has the other 80 percent? Is it 30/70? And if that's the case, why is he worth worshiping? This is a big problem for any person who argues for a God who is limited to time.
(Interview with Royce Gordon Gruenler by CT)
Another thought: If God only sees our present as we choose it, in our "libertarian free will", Gruenler adds: quote: (In the OV belief system) because we are free agents—agents that act on our own—God cannot only not have the future as actual, he cannot have the present as actual either. The present is where you are doing your actualizing by your own free agency. So God only truly has your past. He has only fossils to work with.
I would appreciate any comments on the above thoughts. I hope you all have a blessed Christmas full of God's Joy,
SIM
Edited by - SIM on 12/23/2002 12:40:24 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 12/23/2002 8:07 AM (GMT -6) |   | 1:30 AM eh Doc? I know the feeling.
Yeah, as I read Morris, he denies the kenotic models in favor of standard two-natures, two-minds view. But...he favors a social model of the Trinity and confesses that he could go with a kenotic model if push came to shove.
Nite nite, Tom
"When you mix things up they get messy" Fred | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 12/23/2002 8:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | [SIM: To Dr. Boyd: I've read your belief about God's infinite forknowledge of ALL possible future counterfactuals. And my response to that is, as impressive as this is, other than the AMOUNT of knowledge, what difference does it make that God knows all of this, from our standpoint? If God is hands-off in one universe of possibilities, that's still hands-off no matter how much it is multiplied. Am I missing something?
Doc: Hi SIM. I’m afraid I’m missing something. What do you mean by "hands-off"? For various reasons, I don’t think God meticulously CONTROLS which possibilities come to pass. But I don’t think he’s detached from any of the possibilities that may come to pass. He’s completely active, within the parameters he set up which allow for free agency.
SIM: Also, what would you suggest I read of your writings to understand your beliefs more completely?
Doc: God at War, Satan and the Problem of Evil, and God of the Possible all deal with theodicy issues from an OV perspective.
Gruelner: Theodicy. [In the Open View] the ultimate culpability [for evil] still rests with God because, if he was all-powerful in creating the world, he could have created it as a place where the creature wouldn't have the freedom to commit evil.
Doc: That’s like blaming evil that a person does on his parents because they could have bought a dog instead of having a child!
Gruelner: In the OV belief system) because we are free agents—agents that act on our own—God cannot only not have the future as actual, he cannot have the present as actual either. The present is where you are doing your actualizing by your own free agency. So God only truly has your past. He has only fossils to work with.
Doc: Very strange reasoning. In Gruelner’s view, apparently, God can only know THE PRESENT if he’s meticulously predestined the whole of world history. It escapes me why God can’t know THE PRESENT as it is happening while not being certain of how free agents will actualize possibilities. The same line of reasoning would require the conclusion that NO HUMAN BEING knows the present.
TGB: he favors a social model of the Trinity and confesses that he could go with a kenotic model if push came to shove.
Doc: Well then, we’ll just have to shove him!
Peace Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 12/24/2002 4:22 AM (GMT -6) |   | TGB: he [Morris] favors a social model of the Trinity and confesses that he could go with a kenotic model if push came to shove.
Doc: Well then, we’ll just have to shove him!
Gruelner: In the OV belief system) because we are free agents—agents that act on our own—God cannot only not have the future as actual, he cannot have the present as actual either. The present is where you are doing your actualizing by your own free agency. So God only truly has your past. He has only fossils to work with.
Doc: Very strange reasoning.
Tom: Looks like Gruenler needs the shoving! I don't mind risking my neck here ('cause there's a LOT I don't know), but I just don't see how somebody as educated as Gruenler can say something so...so...off, so...unstudied (if that's a word)...so wacko off. Help me out ya'll. I mean, how can you have a Ph.D. and reason so poorly? How's it possible?
Tom
"When you mix things up they get messy" Fred | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SIM Registered Member
 Date Joined Nov 2002 Total Posts : 90 | Posted 12/24/2002 5:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thank you for your response in one of the busiest seasons for preachers and pastors!
quote:
Doc: What do you mean by "hands-off"? For various reasons, I don’t think God meticulously CONTROLS which possibilities come to pass. But I don’t think he’s detached from any of the possibilities that may come to pass. He’s completely active, within the parameters he set up which allow for free agency.
Me: Sorry for being unclear. "Handsoff" obviously is not the right term. If I understand OV, I do mean God is not orchestrating or in any way influencing libertarian free choices in the PRESENT(if one believes that man's free will IS libertarian).
quote: Gruenler: Theodicy. [In the Open View] the ultimate culpability [for evil] still rests with God because, if he was all-powerful in creating the world, he could have created it as a place where the creature wouldn't have the freedom to commit evil.
Doc: That’s like blaming evil that a person does on his parents because they could have bought a dog instead of having a child!
Me: But isn't Gruenler's point that God DID have the choice, knowing the possible outcomes, but chose to allow for the possible existence of evil? AND another thing that comes to my mind is, OV belives that God DOES have forknowledge about certain decisions and orchestrates certain events. Doesn't this also make Him culpable when He chooses to be inactive in other events?
quote: Gruenler: In the OV belief system) because we are free agents—agents that act on our own—God cannot only not have the future as actual, he cannot have the present as actual either. The present is where you are doing your actualizing by your own free agency. So God only truly has your past. He has only fossils to work with.
Doc: Very strange reasoning. In Gruelner’s view, apparently, God can only know THE PRESENT if he’s meticulously predestined the whole of world history. It escapes me why God can’t know THE PRESENT as it is happening while not being certain of how free agents will actualize possibilities. The same line of reasoning would require the conclusion that NO HUMAN BEING knows the present.
Me: I may be wrong, but I believe that Gruenler's use of the word "Actual", has to do with the fact that God cannot influence or in any way direct the Present in the OV belief system because that would be tampering with libertarian free will. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.)
Have a blessed Christmas Eve!
SIM
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/24/2002 10:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Doc: The two natures view does NOT "entail" the "two minds view." I just thought that Morris denies the Kenotic view in favor of the two minds view. (Remember, Kenotic Christologists affirm, at least in principle, the "two natures" of Christ [though many of us question how meaningful this language is today]).
Care to explain this? (the underlined part)
I'm aghast. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/25/2002 3:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: Doc: (Remember, Kenotic Christologists affirm, at least in principle, the "two natures" of Christ [though many of us question how meaningful this language is today]).]
Doc, can you explain these two things for me, please.
1. Re: "Kenotic Christologists affirm, at least in principle, the "two natures" of Christ
2. Re: "many of us question how meaningful this language (of the "two natures" of Christ) today"
Fred
Edited by - fred on 12/25/2002 08:29:20 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/25/2002 2:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | Tom and Doc,
I don't know who wrote this "Christ and Chalcedon: Nature, Minds, and Pluralism" at www.tmch.net/christcalcedon.htm . But it looks interesting; and sizes up MORRIS.
I'll be back in a vew days.
Al | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 12/25/2002 7:56 PM (GMT -6) |   | SIM: But isn't Gruenler's point that God DID have the choice, knowing the possible outcomes, but chose to allow for the possible existence of evil?
Doc: Yes. And parents choose the same. But no one blames them for the evil the free children they choose to have commit. The intuition that drives this is that the risk of a person "turning out bad" is worth it. If WE didn’t believe this, we wouldn’t have children. So it seems disingenuous to blame God for taking the risk of creating free agents.
SIM: OV belives that God DOES have forknowledge about certain decisions and orchestrates certain events. Doesn't this also make Him culpable when He chooses to be inactive in other events?
Doc: In the OV, God gives freedom within parameters. He determines and thus foreknows certain things but grants agents freedom of choice within these parameters. God can’t be held culpable for the freedom he grants agents with the parameters that he set.
Got to go Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  SIM Registered Member
 Date Joined Nov 2002 Total Posts : 90 | Posted 12/27/2002 6:31 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote: SIM: But isn't Gruenler's point that God DID have the choice, knowing the possible outcomes, but chose to allow for the possible existence of evil? Doc: Yes. And parents choose the same. But no one blames them for the evil the free children they choose to have commit. The intuition that drives this is that the risk of a person "turning out bad" is worth it. If WE didn’t believe this, we wouldn’t have children. So it seems disingenuous to blame God for taking the risk of creating free agents.
Yes, I agree with you that this doesn't make God responsible, simply because He chose to create the possibility for sin. I was reminded of a Genesis study that brought out the fact that Man's Fall in the Garden of Eden was not a certainty: Satan had to orchestrate the situation in a way that all of humanity would eat of the tree of knowledge at the same time in order for the fall to happen. A close reading of the Genesis story shows that when Eve was being tempted by Satan, Adam was in the vicinity, but not near enough to overhear the conversation between the serpent and Eve. Eve could go to Adam quickly, to offer the fruit, without Adam's awareness of what had taken place prior to this offering. The study pointed out the need for all of humanity to eat the fruit at once in order for the fall to take place. Also, there may very well have been other actions by other satanic entities in the Garden to support Satan's scheme. Also, it is not known how long it took for Satan to accomplish this, and how many times he had to try before he was "successful". This helps me to see that God did not "set humans up" in the Garden, and that the fall was not a certainty.
We, as Christians, tend to choose between the sovereignty of God or the free will of man; I like to use the analogy, "fall off one side of the horse, or the other", but both can be reconciled. A. W. Tozer, in The Knowledge of the Holy, gives this answer, "God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it."
Interesting that the "open future" view and the "classic view" of infinite foreknowledge both uphold that God sets parameters, but with a different slant on how that occurs.
One thing that to me is a significant difference that results from your view of God's control is the role of suffering. In the classic view, all suffering can produce good results in believers' lives. I don't see that that could be true in the open view. I would appreciate clarity if I'm wrong.
Thanks,
SIM
PS: And for suffering not to be wasted, if suffering is not at minimum "allowed" by God, one cannot logically say that God CAN use all suffering to the good of those who are called according to His purpose. How can God "shout to us in our pain" if He doesn't know the pain is going to happen before it happens?, and also if He doesn't have some way to limit/control that pain's existence. I.e., pain cannot always be purposed in the OV belief system.
Edited by - SIM on 12/27/2002 2:35:03 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 1/31/2004 7:11 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 4/11/2004 4:23 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/6/2004 12:50 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/6/2004 1:12 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 5/11/2004 3:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | Good LINK: www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/byzantine_theology_j_meyendorf.htm
See the second section in BIG BOLD TEXT:
The Christological Issue.
quote: Throughout the millennium between the Council of Chalcedon and the fall of Constantinople, Byzantine the theological thought was dominated by the Christological problem as it was defined in the dispute between Cyril and Nestorius and in the subsequent discussions and conciliar decrees. It must be remembered however that the central issue in these debates was the ultimate fate of man.
Western Christological thought since the early Middle Ages has been dominated by the Anselmian idea of redemption through "satisfaction;" the idea that Jesus offered to the Father a perfect and sufficient sacrifice, propitiatory for the sins of mankind, has been at the centre of Christological speculation playing a prominent role in modern historical research on the patristic age. The result is that Christology has been conceived as a topic in itself, clearly distinct from pneumatology and anthropology. But if one keeps in mind the Greek patristic notion that the true nature of man means life in God realized once and for all through the Holy Spirit in the hypostatic union of the man Jesus with the Logos and made accessible to all men through the same Holy Spirit in the humanity of Christ and in His body, the Church, Christology acquires a new and universal dimension. It cannot be isolated any longer from either the doctrine of the Holy Spirit or the doctrine of man, and it becomes a key for the understanding of the Gospel as a whole.
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