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BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 1/9/2003 11:39 AM (GMT -6) |   | I'm sure many of you have heard about this, but for those of you who haven't, prepare to be horrified.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/856484.asp?0dm=C219N
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/9/2003 4:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Only an extreme case, is all. Stuff like that happens all the time...
when a society starts going downward, its weakest members suffer.
Edited by - honorman on 01/09/2003 9:51:42 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 1/9/2003 5:48 PM (GMT -6) | | It absolutely sucks that this kind of depravity exists, but you don't have to go to New Jersey to find it.
But-->>> I'm not sure about how to respond to your post. Why would I purposefully click to be horrified? The real question as Honorman points out is why is this case being exploited? Do we need a destitute, crack-addict, child-abusing, cat-loving, stripper to make us horrified? What's the real reason we should direct traffic to read this article? Is there something to gain from it? Does it make us feel better about ourselves when we can see that we aren't involved in this kind of depravity even though we have a closet full of our own skeletons?
I'm not trying to be offensive, I just don't get it.
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 1/9/2003 6:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Wow. I know you don't know me, fyodor, but I'd ask for a little benefit of the doubt. Did you really think that I posted this link for the thrill of horrifying myself and others? Or that I somehow use this story to feel better about myself?
Concrete examples of atrocities like this have been exchanged here on this board before in our many discussions of the problem of evil. With others here, I believe it is vitally important to confront the harsh reality of radical evil. As Doc writes in "God at War" (p. 34):
Evil cannot be adequately grasped in a detached, neutral, abstract way. It cannot be known through faceless, nameless statistics or abstract theorems. All approaches to the problem of evil that do not go beyond these will be in danger of offering cheap and trite solutions. Radical evil can be known only when incarnated and experienced concretely. . . . We must entertain concrete pictures [of evil] when we discuss the problem of evil, if our discussion is to be authentic.
Or, as Jeffery Burton Russell suggests in "The Prince of Darkness" (p. 257):
[A]bstractions . . . distract us from that immediate reality [of evil] and reduce evil to a statistic. . . . Only when the abstractions are put aside can we see the face of the Devil gloating over suffering. . . Every honest view of reality must confront the immediate, personal, physical reality of the burning child.
Honorman is right. Stuff like this happens all the time. I believe we would do well to see it and smell it and taste the horror of it once in a while. Not only is it essential to our understanding of theodicy, it stirs in us a passionate determination to devote ourselves to God's war against it.
I'm sorry you assumed that I meant otherwise.
Brett
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 1/9/2003 7:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I'm sorry you assumed that I meant otherwise.
I'm really not assuming you meant otherwise....That's why all my questions have question marks at the end.??? I really feel like a post like this should be questioned...
quote:
We must entertain concrete pictures [of evil] when we discuss the problem of evil, if our discussion is to be authentic.
Where was the discussion? It was just a link saying, "prepare to be horrified."
Perhaps this is a good "concrete example" of the "harsh reality of radical evil" but how attached can we be to the actual example? The article was inflamatory, the case is many states away from you and me, and the media coverage is sensationalized to illicit emotional responses. I just don't understand why this case was so horrifically villainized as compared to other cases of similar nature.
The article is inflamatory and follows the format for "Monster Mom" news coverage as laid out in Barry Glassner's "The Culture of Fear; Why Americans are Afraid of the Wrong Things"
Just a few quotes from the MSNBC article:
quote:
?This is the most horrible story I have ever heard,? James said Wednesday. ?There?s enough blame here to go around for a lot of people.?
"A go-go dancer sought in the horrific abuse of three young boys"
"she entrusted the boys to Murphy, who was dancing in bars under the stage name ?Ebony.?
"CAT WAS WELL-FED
A cat in the apartment was immaculately clean and well-fed."
"The ghastly case is just the latest around the country to highlight the difficulties caseworkers have in protecting some of the nation?s most vulnerable children from abuse or even death."
"Man who found missing dancer crying on street alerts police"
This story will lead to article after article about "How many more cases like this are out there? It's meant to instill fear and we're suppossed to eat it up. The fact that she was a "go-go dancer had nothing to do with the fact that she abused these kids yet it was mentioned in the article five times. I just don't get it...
I'm really not trying to attack you Brett, just interested in provocating some thought and discussion on this...If this is a discussion of the problem of evil, or even spiritual warfare, maybe we should move it to another section of the bulletin board.
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET
Edited by - fyodor on 01/10/2003 12:30:20 AM
Edited by - fyodor on 01/10/2003 12:35:07 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 1/9/2003 8:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Fyodor, my fellow insomniac, my intent in posting this story was not to evoke a debate about the values of modern media coverage, nor does it really matter to me which section of the bulletin board the post was made to. It is merely an incredibly sad story about real people, and whether those people live down the street from me or they live on a street in New Jersey, I am emotionally and spiritually impacted by it.
Blessings,
Brett
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fyodor
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 1/9/2003 8:18 PM (GMT -6) | | Gotcha-
I'm probably too hot to have a debate....It would be difficult to not take my earliest remarks on the subject as fightin words. The media blows my mind. I have a difficult time not getting fired up about it. I also had a difficult time getting past the phrase, "prepare to be horrified." must just be a buzz word for me.
Anyway, I leave my remarks as is because I still feel like there are relevant questions that need answers. but I apologize for inflaming a perfectly good thread.
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 1/10/2003 3:52 AM (GMT -6) | | No problem, kemosabe.  Thanks for understanding where I was coming from.
Brett
P.S. - Saw your business homepage, by the way. Very cool.
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 1/10/2003 5:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Though I caught bits and pieces off the news, it saddens me to read detailed account of what happened to those boys. Makes me want to cry.
But I think I have to disagree with fyodor when he says:quote:
The fact that she was a "go-go dancer had nothing to do with the fact that she abused these kids yet it was mentioned in the article five times.
I would not say that there is a direct cause/effect relationship between her abuse of the boys and her dancing. But it seems indicative that along with her lifestyle, these kinds of sad situations "come with the territory" as a whole.
Holy Spirit, come along side those poor little boys and their mother and bring healing and restoration and life out of such pitiful ashes.
Brandon
"Truth is so obscured nowadays and lies so well established that unless we love the truth we shall never recognize it."--Todd Flanders/ Pascal: Talkin' 'bout My Generation | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 1/10/2003 5:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Holy Spirit, come along side those poor little boys and their mother and bring healing and restoration and life out of such pitiful ashes.
Amen, Brandon.
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori."
Edited by - BJS on 01/10/2003 10:23:50 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 1/10/2003 5:57 AM (GMT -6) | | I had read this account of this case, and sadly enough actually recently read some really similar stories in the Miami Herald about abuse cases in Florida. It IS so very heartbreaking and horrific...
I just want to add that(in no way to defend the media as a whole) the media coverage of cases such as this and the Rilya Wilson case in Florida (among many others that were highlighted in the report) does spur some social action. The actions of the Department of Children's and Family Services are being scrutinized by everyone including the Governors of those states.(I have a particular interest in this area as I have a social work background and have worked with abused children and teens.) In this case and those highlighted in the Herald showed that there is a pervasive problem of caseworkers closing cases without ever making face to face contact with the children. They simply put "case closed unable to locate children", or document check-ins with the families that never really took place.
The result in New Jersey after this case came to light was a statewide mandate by the Governor to reopen 200+ cases of reported child abuse where the children were not located. Case Workers are now not allowed to close any cases until the child is found and the allegations are investigated and they are required to be actively searching for the unlocated children. These NJ children were already in the system and they were failed completely! The cases from Florida were about children IN the system who were failed due to the closing of cases due to location issues or lack of the required ongoing contact by the agency, and they ended up dying in the hands of their caretakers.
There are so many needs in the overburdened system of child welfare, but cases like this bring it to the attention of those in power to make SOME changes. A change like this might seem like a drop in the bucket of a broken system but hopefully children will be saved because of these new policies.
Shell
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fyodor
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 1/10/2003 8:13 AM (GMT -6) | | BBBCanada:
quote:
But I think I have to disagree with fyodor when he says:
quote:
The fact that she was a "go-go dancer had nothing to do with the fact that she abused these kids yet it was mentioned in the article five times.
I would not say that there is a direct cause/effect relationship between her abuse of the boys and her dancing. But it seems indicative that along with her lifestyle, these kinds of sad situations "come with the territory" as a whole.
I'm still not so sure it's relevant. News coverage is suppossed to be unbiased, but doesn't making an effort to point out that she was a go-go dancer 5 times just serve to reinforce a cultural stereotype, to classify her as evil. It's easy to classify a go-go dancer as someone more capable of doing such a thing than you or I. I'm not trying to discount what she did or didn't do but the coverage provides only one way to look at the case.
I agree that we need to pray for reconcilitation for the children and their mother. I also pray for this woman who abused these kids, there's obviously some serious evil going on there.
I agree with Shell in that, the news coverage does provide a forum for change, but I think it might be providing a forum for change on the basis of what the news media chooses to focus on rather than some of the deeper issues. We focus on the child-welfare system rather than taking it back two steps to find out how we can provide help and transformation to the mother before she has to give up her kids. We fix the visible outcome rather than the root cause.
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 1/10/2003 8:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
These NJ children were already in the system and they were failed completely! The cases from Florida were about children IN the system who were failed due to the closing of cases due to location issues or lack of the required ongoing contact by the agency, and they ended up dying in the hands of their caretakers.
There are so many needs in the overburdened system of child welfare, but cases like this bring it to the attention of those in power to make SOME changes. A change like this might seem like a drop in the bucket of a broken system but hopefully children will be saved because of these new policies.
Shell
All the more reason to have private organizations who are right on the front lines to become more involved than to leave it totally up to government bureaucratic agencies who haven't got a clue.
Brandon
"Truth is so obscured nowadays and lies so well established that unless we love the truth we shall never recognize it."--Todd Flanders/ Pascal: Talkin' 'bout My Generation | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/10/2003 9:46 AM (GMT -6) | | I have no desire to pray for the reconciliation of the mother and those children. Such a person does not deserve to get back her children. The best thing to pray for is those children get out of such a situation and that they may get counselling and a loving start with someone else.
Care of children such as that does not happen in a vacumn. I have little empathy for people who parent like that. At my worst I would never do such a thing to my children. To allow yourself to sink that low and to allow your children to be placed with such a person makes you unfit to be a parent. Your rights as a parent should be revoked.
As a parent I ALWAYS pray for the welfare and protection of the children before anything. Parents who abuse are always last on my list.
BTW: amen Brandon. Why we leave such important things to government agencies is beyond me...except perhaps that no one else will do it...
Edited by - honorman on 01/10/2003 2:47:41 PM
Edited by - honorman on 01/10/2003 2:48:53 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 1/10/2003 9:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Two things...
Go-go dancer relevency...probably not too relevent in the way that the media is portraying it...though it does make the story even more interesting and sordid for those who thrive on that...yet in reality it is relevent to her social situation because it does point to a lack of self worth, probably a dysfunctional childhood...and as those who are sexually exploited often are, she is a drug addict which is very relevent to child abuse. Some have said it's probable(this is speculation on the part of the media again)that she used the welfare checks for the children to help support her habit, which points to her reasoning in not turning the children over to foster care or someone else since she had no real responsibility to assume care for these children she didn't care about at all.
On the other hand I met a stripper(don't even ask) who was a single mom and did what she did to make the most money she could to give her daughter what she thought was the "best". She sent her to a private school, she gave her the best clothes...they traveled together. She gave her everything she had always wanted to give her daughter. She did not abuse her daughter in any way. Many strippers are single moms trying to make the most money possible to care for their children. So ultimately is her dancing relevent the way the media is portraying it? Probably not.(now, please don't go thinking I am advocating that anyone do this line of work or that I don't think it is harmful to the child and the mother for her to that...)I just have no interest in seeing people that are allowing themselves to be sexually exploited being villified...I see them as wounded.
Secondly many private agencies are involved in the child welfare system. The reports are not really great about them either. They are having the same issues of placing kids in foster homes that have an ex convict in the home or not following up on reported problems or sending kids back to problematic foster homes or family situations where they end up being murdered...I've been reading about this lately as well. It is quite discouraging.
Oh and by the way Fyodor, you mentioned backing up a few steps and doing something and bringing transformtion before a parent loses their child. I wholeheartedly agree and I don't think anyone would disagree with this...but currently there are thousands of children living in abusive situations right now that do need the intervention of Children and Families, and attention does need to be drawn to the gaps and downfalls of the systems in place(it's all we have to work with right now), so I personally am glad that a light is shining on this particular issue of closing cases before contact is made. There are many agencies and social workers out there addressing those issues " two steps back" as you referred to, that lead to abuse, and the DCFS agencies themselves work with parents to help them before it gets to the point of removing the child permanently. It needs to happen at both ends of the spectrum...prevention and intervention. The root of the problem of child abuse is so vast and indicative of so many social ills. Poverty, drug addiction, teen pregnancy, lack of solid family structures, previous abuse, mental illness, it goes on and on...
Shell
Edited by - shell on 01/10/2003 3:24:42 PM
Edited by - shell on 01/11/2003 10:13:16 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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fyodor
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 1/10/2003 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Shell thanks for your insights. Excellent discussion.
I agree with most of what you said about the issue as a whole. I still think that part of the problem with the type of changes that occur when these situations get a lot of media coverage is an issue of fragmentation. In a major network news broadcast, this story might get 45 seconds of airtime. The perspective is so small that the public is given a chosen perspective on what we should be interested in about the case. Therefore, the systematic changes that get tackled are relevant to the particular soundbite or bias of the media. This situation is horrifying enough to invoke public outrage and that's an oddly good outcome of the media coverage. However. it becomes another government ordinance to fix the effect rather than the cause.
My wife has been reading an excellent book on foster care for those interested. She's been relaying the jist of it and it sounds really good.
Title: The Lost Children of Wilder; The Epic Struggle to Change Foster Care. by Nina Bernstein
>>>"And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth." Kahlil Gibran from THE PROPHET | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 1/11/2003 5:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Honorman,
Besides agreeing with me on government agencies? I think that that is one of the most ungodly posts written. Just thought you should know. 
Brandon
"Truth is so obscured nowadays and lies so well established that unless we love the truth we shall never recognize it."--Todd Flanders/ Pascal: Talkin' 'bout My Generation | | Back to Top | | |
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