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Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 6/12/2002 11:47 AM (GMT -6)

Hey, I just read something and I've had a thought. This is a poll. How many people hear think that the Baalam and TALKING DONKEY incident really happened? In case you don't know the story, here...

_______________________________

Numbers 22:20-34
That night God came to Balaam and said, "Since these men have come to summon you, go with them, but do only what I tell you." Balaam got up in the morning, saddled his donkey and went with the princes of Moab. But God was very angry when he went, and the angel of the LORD stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him. When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, she turned off the road into a field. Balaam beat her to get her back on the road.

Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path between two vineyards, with walls on both sides. When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam's foot against it. So he beat her again. Then the angel of the LORD moved on ahead and stood in a narrow place where there was no room to turn, either to the right or to the left. When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat her with his staff. Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?" Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now."

[Meph's break in thought: A human is talking to a TALKING DONKEY here.]

The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?" "No," he said. Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown. The angel of the LORD asked him, "Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me. The donkey saw me and turned away from me these three times. If she had not turned away, I would certainly have killed you by now, but I would have spared her."
Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, "I have sinned. I did not realize you were standing in the road to oppose me. Now if you are displeased, I will go back."

____________________________

Now, reading this, the first thing I want to know is HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE think that this was an ACTUAL OCCURANCE. The text seems to be narrative material to me. But what do you think?

Here are the answers.

YES, the Balaam event happened just as reported.

or

NO, the Balaam event did NOT happen just as reported.

We'll get to the other stuff later...

Winghead
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132

Posted 6/12/2002 2:59 PM (GMT -6)

Yes. And Pigs would fly, if God wanted them to, though fortunately for us, they don't.

YBIC,
Winghead

"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)

Edited by - Winghead on 06/12/2002 8:05:06 PM

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 6/12/2002 7:00 PM (GMT -6)

It happened just as reported. It happened just as reported. It happened just as reported. It happened just as reported. It...

Yes.

Tom

"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde

markus
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100

Posted 6/12/2002 7:24 PM (GMT -6)

I guess this depends a lot on how liberally one wants to define "talking". Animals and birds communicate much through both their varied sounds as well as their movements. Our own body language speaks far more accurately and voluminously than does our actual speech.

Do we not say that a woman's eyes speak far more than her words?

Often the actions and reactions of others "speak" to us by coinciding and confirming what are actually our own thoughts at that time. It may well be that the donkey's words were, in reality, Balaam's own response in his mind that was suddenly overwelmingly confirmed by some gesture by the donkey - but there again, why shouldn't a donkey speak if God wishes him to? Is that not what Jesus promised the disciples in the NT? That they should not fear what to say when dragged before authorities as the words will be given to them? Or are we only dealing with the biological capability of a donkey to utter human sounds?

I find the prospect of a talking donkey at least as credible as the sudden appearance of a sword-bearing angel stating how it would have killed Balaam!

Talking of which, what exactly does "killing" mean in the OT? Is this total destruction of body AND spirit, or just a separation of the spirit from the body in order to conveniently remove a person from doing damage in this world by displacing them to the spiritual world to await Judgement? If the latter, then are they unconscious from that point forward or fully aware of what has happened as with Lazarus? And if they ARE conscious, do they still have an opportunity for repentance, or is their fate already sealed upon the act of physical death? If they DO have a chance to make amends, should one pray for dead people? (I cannot find anything in the Bible to confirm that).

Killing is surely an even more complicated issue than talking!

Markus

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 6/12/2002 10:48 PM (GMT -6)

Hmmm...over 30 times read...and only two poll responses? Cmon, gang. Participate. So far we have two votes for YES. Oops. Meant three.

Edited by - Mephi2K on 06/13/2002 09:42:52 AM

Tiggers
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 219

Posted 6/13/2002 5:38 AM (GMT -6)

Hey Mephi,

Ok, here’s my take, everything is absolutely possible with God outside of logical contradictions (ex., God’s omnipotence and his ability to create a rock so intense he can’t lift)…sooo, Balaam’s ass talking to him poses no real problem for me. Heck, look at the resurrection for an example of this, just because one does not see resurrections happen every day should not automatically imply the conclusion for the resurrection never to have happen. Simply put, if one were to join in the quest to find the true historical Jesus, yet carrying with themselves a presupposition of a naturalistic worldview, then it is only possible that the Jesus they find is anti-supernatural as well. Now, all this babble is just to say if you go into the Scripture with a supernatural world view, a talking donkey should pose no problem, especially if put up against the miracle of the resurrection

!

Warmly in Christ,
Tiggers

“The notion that God uses evils as a means to such higher goods is, … incompatible with the doctrine that he is omnipotent, and therefore does not need to use deplorable means to achieve his ends” (J.L. Mackie).

churchmouse522
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163

Posted 6/13/2002 6:42 AM (GMT -6)

I don't like the choices. Can't I vote that it may or may not have happened, but the truth communicated is reliable and faithful?

If I must vote on one of the two choices you have left us with I vote yes. If the Lord can bring wisdom out of my life and my mouth, he certainly can make a donkey speak.

Mouse

"For I found myself embarrassed with so many doubts and errors that is seemed to me that the effort to instruct myself had no effect other than the increasing discovery of my own ignorance."
˜ Descartes as quoted by Kierkegaard

Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 6/13/2002 6:55 AM (GMT -6)

I agree with the talking Mouse. Electra

~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
…in him, lost in him and his love…

Edited by - Electra on 06/13/2002 11:55:42 AM

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 6/13/2002 6:58 AM (GMT -6)

Mouse,

I'm just curious. Could you tell me what reliable truth is conveyed by this Balaam incident if it DIDN'T occur? I mean, I'm looking at Numbers 22-24 (where all this is found) and it seems to me to be a narrative story telling about a man named Balaam and his circumstances. It would seem that we could extend your logic about the donkey part to ALL of Balaam's activities, including his first and second oracles about blessing Israel. Thus, "demythologizing" (as it were) all of it. So, what's this "reliable truth" that you would find if it didn't occur, and HOW MUCH of Balaam's accounts would you interpret this way?

Wondering,

PS: So far, all votes are yes. Are there ANY No's out there? I know there's at least one. Come on. Don't be scurrred. (Countrified for 'scared')

PS: Side note. I REALLY have a problem with that whole "may or may not have happened, but reliable truth" idea. It seems to me many times to end up being a type of copout to regroup faith in the "infallibility" of the Scriptures on an ad hoc basis. But that's just my honest opinion.

Edited by - Mephi2K on 06/13/2002 12:00:49 PM

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 6/13/2002 8:38 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

…sooo, Balaam’s ass talking to him poses no real problem for me.

HA! HA! HA!

The genre of text could well include talking donkeys, but as of now, I don't seem to have a problem with it. So I vote yes.

Brandon
"We must love one another or die."--W.H. Auden

Edited by - BBBCanada on 06/13/2002 1:42:00 PM

churchmouse522
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163

Posted 6/13/2002 8:56 AM (GMT -6)

Meph,

I had a feeling that response would bug you. Sorry. But I'll try to clarify where I'm coming from.

The reliable and faithful truth I see in the Balaam story (whether it really happened like that or not) is that there are things going on behind the curtain that affect us, frustrate us, help us, etc. Things are not always what they seem.

I guess if you want to call it a cop out you can, but I just don't have the energy to sort out which stories are detailed historical fact and which ones are something altogether different. But again, I don't have any problem at all in believing this really happened.

There you have it.

Talking Mouse

"For I found myself embarrassed with so many doubts and errors that is seemed to me that the effort to instruct myself had no effect other than the increasing discovery of my own ignorance."
˜ Descartes as quoted by Kierkegaard

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 6/13/2002 6:50 PM (GMT -6)

Given the pattern of Jesus' treatment of the Old Testament, and if a gun was put to my head forcing a choice, I'd say Yes. But really Meph, who cares? (Just one of your oddly curious moments?)

Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 6/14/2002 2:59 AM (GMT -6)

"Who cares?" Surprising response. I think we'd love to say the same thing about the Exodus or the creation of the Ten Commandments...right? Hmm...

By the by, Mouse. I hope you didn't think I was saying that YOU were giving a copout. I was saying that I believe that the idea you used ends up largely used as a copout. No disrespect intended.

PS: Moreover, maybe I should start a thread on that. The HUMANNESS of Jesus as it relates to his Scriptural interpretation. Did Jesus believe in a literal six-day creation due to his incarnation into a 1st century Jew with THOSE understandings of the world? Did Jesus REALLY BELIEVE that Jonah (whom he seemed to discuss) really got swallowed by the whale and was down there 3 days? And a biggie. When speaking of DEMONS, was Jesus using a paradigm familiar to his cultural milieu (Heck, EVERYTHING was caused by demons back then, right?)...or was he affirming the existence? In short, how HUMAN was Jesus? If the kenotic idea is true, and Jesus set aside his omniscience, wouldn't he be subject to ERROR in belief about certain things in the world just like any other person? Does sinlessness mean ERROR-FREE? Yeah...that'd be a nice thread...maybe.

PSS: My oddly curious moments sometimes end up in some profound insights being discussed all around. Just sometimes, mind you.

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 6/14/2002 3:32 AM (GMT -6)

I don't think serpents talk (or ever did); I don't think Jonah lived three days in the belly of a whale; I don't believe the earth is some 4,000 years old, which is how old it would be if we took the Genesis account as a literal depiction of reality; and I don't think Baalam's donkey talked to him in Hebrew or whatever language was spoken.

I vote no.

But on the other hand I don't think it matters in the slightest if any of those things are literally true or not.

In any case, we will never be able to prove whether this particular event happened in fact, or is some conglomeration of fantasy and fact, or whether the confusion lay in Balaam's experience or his interpretation of the experience.

And since nothing at all hinges on whether or not this literally happened or not (as opposed to the resurrection - which everything hinges upon), why do we care?

Is the point of the story diminished if it didn't literally happen exactly as depicted?

I refuse to sweat over whether or not certain things are literal or not (other than the depiction of Jesus' life), because nothing in my faith depends upon it. If I meet God tomorrow, and he says, "By the way, the look on Baalam's face when that donkey talked to him was priceless!" I'm going to say, "Okay God! You got me on that one!"

I assume some day I'll have the answers for all those questions, when I meet God. But for myself personally, I find metaphorical interpretations to be richly rewarding. And I also realize that anything is possible - and since I believe the accounts of Jesus' miracles, it is certainly possible that God let the donkey do his talking in that one instance. But it matters to me not at all if that is exactly how it happened.

To be honest, the only thing I care about in terms of historicity is the account of Jesus' life. If that is sufficient for me to believe in the existence of Jesus, which then brings me into a relationship with Jesus, which then brings experiential evidence of its reality (through my own experience of being in relationship with Jesus Christ), then that gives me reason to value the rest of scripture, regardless of its literal truth.

I do think many things in the bible are historically true, and I think many are not. But I have never understood the difference this makes to people. Perhaps my outlook has something to do with the fact that I have always found fiction and poetry to contain more truth about the human condition than most historical accounts that I have ever come across - and so I don't expect the Bible to be any different. Jesus himself communicated most frequently through the telling of stories, and a too literal interpretation of his parables generally prevents one from getting the point.

And in this particular story, after briefly reading it, the meaning that stands out to me is that sometimes when we think we are experiencing a roadblock in life we are actually receiving guidance from God. Instead of blaming what stands in our way, sometimes we need to look deeper to find out what's really going on, and to find out if the obstacle is actually something God is laying down for our own benefit.

So sue me, I vote no.

But in truth, I don’t care, and would readily retract if convinced otherwise.

Thanks,
Semeia

PS, On your last comment about whether or not Jesus was in error. Either Jesus was a very good secret keeper (ala Star Trek’s – The Prime Directive – concerning not contaminating any worlds they encountered with new technology) or else he was limited by the knowledge of the day. Again, it’s one of those things impossible to know. I tend to believe that he was limited in many areas to the knowledge of the day. Otherwise it would have been so tempting to shout out, “Oh, and by the way, the EARTH goes around the SUN!!!!! I thought I’d save you 1500 years of that blind alley!!!!”

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

Edited by - Semeia on 06/14/2002 11:40:31 PM

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 6/14/2002 3:41 AM (GMT -6)

PSS, I often feel like the donkey is asking me, "What are you kicking ME for????"

Certain obstacles in life (not all), in retrospect are such a blessing. But rarely does it feel like it at the time. Usually it feels just like kicking a damn stubborn mule.

Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/14/2002 4:25 AM (GMT -6)

.............troublesome computer..........maybe sees an angel.

churchmouse522
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163

Posted 6/14/2002 4:30 AM (GMT -6)

Meph,

No disrespect taken. We're beyond that brother.

Semeia,

Is there a class I can take on how to talk like you?

Mouse

PS...I'm going out of town for a while. Could you all pray for me? I'm kind of going through it lately. Thanks.

"For I found myself embarrassed with so many doubts and errors that is seemed to me that the effort to instruct myself had no effect other than the increasing discovery of my own ignorance."
˜ Descartes as quoted by Kierkegaard

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/14/2002 5:18 AM (GMT -6)

The way Breck parses out the development of the work of the Spirit throughout the OT, the Donkey scene would never have required "the donkey to speak." That is, the donkey was not moved by the spirit inwardly, such as the later prophets were. That kind of imagery just wasn't part of the scene--its anachronistic. BUT, prophets WERE portrayed as being overpowered by the Spirit in that stage.

If the Spirit could overwelm a human -- and if we can accept that -- then the Spirit can do the same to a donkey. SO.... lets not be anachronistic ourselves and look at the passage a proof of a superscientific miracle. That was not the point.

The point is, that the Spirit was involved, and what the Spirit did.

I vote a qualified YES. (Poor donkey.)

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 6/14/2002 5:45 AM (GMT -6)

YAY! A "NO" ANSWER!!!!! THANKS!!

Ooooh, Semeia. Your post was just delICIous! I simply MUST take good bite, when I have more time! Until then...Doc, if you have the time, would YOU care to briefly respond to Semeia's post...maybe along the lines of...

--Barthian views of Scripture and revelation

--quasi-Bultmannian "demythologization" of texts

--some of the EPISTEMOLOGICAL consequences of Jesus being the Son of God from your perspective

and...

--the "HUGE, HUGE" issues that arise by saying that much of Jesus' knowledge of the world was culturally, FINITELY conditioned.

I think you and I will have seen some of the same things, yes?

This ain't knockin your stuff at all, Semeia. Quite the contrary.

Busy, busy, busy,

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 6/14/2002 6:17 AM (GMT -6)

PoW said:

.............troublesome computer..........maybe sees an angel.

Semeia:

Ha!!! Ain't that the truth! But at the moment I'll stick with kicking it. My husband's going to call "The Geek Squad" - they do house calls.

Mouse said:

Is there a class I can take on how to talk like you?

Semeia:

You wouldn't want to take it if there were: you would end up with an uncanny ability to make cops really, really, mad!

Mephi said:

YAY! A "NO" ANSWER!!!!! THANKS!!

Semeia:

Glad to be of help! Although usually that kind of excitement precedes you making mincemeat out of the poor chap - so you won't mind if I watch my back?

Thanks,
Semeia

PS, Mouse, I'll be thinking of you, and praying.

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

littlebittyittyone
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 1

Posted 6/14/2002 6:50 AM (GMT -6)

churchmouse said to Semeia, "Is there a class I can take on how to talk like you?"

Churchmouse, she and many of us could use some classes from you on how to be bubbly!

Springs
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 6/14/2002 6:32 PM (GMT -6)

Hey Mouse,
You are in my prayers.
I thought of you when I read this bit of poetry from the Return of the King.

When the black breath blows
and death's shadow grows
and all lights pass,
come athelas! come athelas!
Life to the dying
In the king's hand lying!

I pray you will be refreshed during your time away, by the Lord, and by those dear to you.

Springs

Gilthoniel, A! Elberech!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees
The starlight on the Western Seas. -JRR Tolkien

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 6/15/2002 9:33 AM (GMT -6)

I haven't responded to this thread because I simply don't know how to answer! I'm torn. I'm with Doc, if a gun was pointed to my head I'd say "yes" and I don't have ANY problems with it being true. But based merely on my instincts, I agree with Semeia.

Actually, this post was more just an excuse to say: "Hi and welcome to the board littlebittyittyone!" Your online name is just too cool.

Edited to add: And Mouse, I'm praying for you. Blessings to you as you go "through it."

Peace,
Empiress

Edited by - Empiress on 06/15/2002 3:05:13 PM

Springs
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 6/15/2002 5:00 PM (GMT -6)

Welcome little one.
It's great having you back Empiress.

I say the donkey talked, but,
personally, if a gun were put to my head I would probably say that the donkey did not talk. I'm bettin' the shooter's not a charismatic.

-S

Gilthoniel, A! Elberech!
-JRR Tolkien

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/16/2002 2:30 AM (GMT -6)

TRYING TO BE DIFFICULT (BECASUE ITS FUN) LET ME CHANGE THE QUESTION. THIS SIDE OF THE NEW TESTEMENT WE KNOW OF THOSE PROPHETS MOVED INWARDLY TO PROPHESY. BUT BAALAM WAS COMPELLED TO SPEAK THE LORD'S MESSAGE; AND COULD NOT REFUSE.

LEAVE THE DONKEY (THE POOR DONKEY) ALONE FOR A MINUTE, SO HE CAN EAT. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT BAALAM WAS FORCED TO TALK.

(The pictures of the Spirit and the Spirit;s actions in the OT can bee seen to develop over time.)

PoW

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