 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject) | Forum Quick Jump
|
|  ¡Que Payaso! Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 108 | Posted 7/27/2002 4:07 PM (GMT -6) |   | Has anyone here read any works by William Dembski? He is one of the more visible proponents of Intelligent Design, a scientific paradigm being offered as a substitute for Darwinism.
Apparently, he is working on a new book which is due to hit the streets in 2003. In the preface, he makes some interesting comments that kept reminding me of the OV revolution. He writes:quote: The acceptance of radical ideas that challenge the status quo...typically runs through several stages...First the idea is regarded as preposterous—the ruling elite feel little threat and as much as possible ignore the challenge, but when asked confidently assert that the idea is so absurd as not to merit consideration. Second it is regarded as pernicious—the ruling elite can no longer ignore the challenge and must take active measures to suppress it, now loudly proclaiming that the idea is confused, irrational, reprehensible, and even dangerous (thus adding a moral dimension to the debate). Third, it is regarded as possible—the ruling elite reluctantly admits that the idea is not entirely absurd but claims that at best it has limited applicability; meanwhile, the mainstream realizes that the idea has far reaching consequences and is far more important that previously recognized. And fourth, it is regarded as plausible—a new status quo has emerged, with the ruling elite taking credit for the idea and the mainstream unable to imagine how people in times past could have thought otherwise.
At what stage is the OV revolution? I would say between 1 & 2.
You can read the rest of the preface at http://www.designinference.com/documents/2002.07.des_rev.htm
This Dembski guy is a real nerd. Check out his bio and mugshot at http://www.meta-library.net/bio/billd-frame.html
He has written two books which introduce the idea of Intelligent Design: The Design Inference (Cambridge, 1998) and Intelligent Design (InterVarsity Press, 1999). I would highly recommend these to anyone involved in the creationism/evolution debate.
Payaso 
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins
Edited by - payaso on 07/27/2002 9:10:43 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Terry_Baxter Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2002 Total Posts : 187 | Posted 7/27/2002 9:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | Insomnia. I'm awake, therefore I post.
Dembski's being optimistic. Very few Big Ideas have this neat course to acceptance, even at a "10,000 foot level."
Social ideas that do become the new status quo almost always have some economic and political push behind them. Slavery became unprofitable in the north: boom, slavery becomes illegal (yes, this is a ridiculously simplified account). Economics led to the feminist revolution.
I'm not sure there's any strong economic or political forces pushing for Intelligent Design (or the Open View for that matter). In fact, in the case of Design, the economics are grossly in favor of the current status quo. The politics of biology departments also has anti-design firmly entrenched. Until kids start boycotting secular schools atheistic evolution is unlikely to give in.
I mention this because I think evolution is much less a scientific argument than a social or political one. I pretty sure, although I haven't read this preface, that Dembski's drawing on Kuhn's notion of Scientific Revolutions. I've quoted a fair summary from a random website (sorry, don't have the link handy) so readers can judge for themselves.
quote: However, in the course of research, scientists inevitably stumble upon anomalies which the paradigm is unable to explain. If the paradigm repeatedly fails to explain the anomaly, a crisis ensues and alternative theories develop. Eventually a competing theory proves relatively successful in explaining the anomaly and it replaces the old paradigm. This replacement is Kuhn's "scientific revolution." Initially, the scientific community resists the replacement, but with time the success of the new paradigm gains enough support to win out. According to Kuhn, the adoption of a new paradigm necessarily establishes the creation of new research problems, methods, and expected results. The scientists within the discipline thus sees the world in a different way than it "was" under the old paradigm. Once the old paradigm is replaced and the revolution has ended, normal science reemerges only to await the discovery of new anomalies.
Note the tension causing the abandonment of the old paradigm is repeated tests of the physical world that don't jibe with current Theory.
Do you think theologians approach biblical interpretation in a similar manner, constantly 'testing' their work and sermons against a "paradigm" that is recognized as "just" a theory? And what's the "real world" they test against?
I do see a version of this argument when Doc and others write about our prayer lives. Even as Calvinists, we still ask God to do something as if prayer matters. That's one 'empirical' test of our theological theory, I suppose.
The other part of this is that people will find 'gaps' in the way the current theory explains the world. That's certainly a propos of the Open View. But... and this is a thread for some other sleepless night... the gap between OV and the Tradition is not very big on Free Will once both sides refine their views (correct me if you disagree). Also, once you get down to it, the Calvinist explanation "works" or has explanatory power in a way Newtonian physics didn't. It also can't be falsified in the same way.
That's why I see the Openness revolution (and Intelligent Design, to a lesser extent) following the path of a social revolution rather than a scientific one.
Terry "Be God's"
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  BBBCanada Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 7/28/2002 12:00 PM (GMT -6) |   | Terry,
I kinda see the OV as being a refinement of view that has had a long history (Arminianism or freewill or what have you) and not so much a new paradigm.
It would seem to me that both views (Arminian to OV and Calvinist) are trying to explain the "data" as coherently and consistently as possible. But that one (paradigm) comes up falling very short to the point of contradiction and not just a gap.
Gotta fly...U is closing.
Brandon "Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War | | Back to Top | | |
 |  writerdad Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 448 | Posted 7/28/2002 7:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | Payaso: I've read him. I think he has some excellant points. He has also edited several other books as well. Terry, I don't think Demb. meant that it was a "neat" course, but rather that was the path they follow generally, on their bumby way to acceptance. Yes, I think William is a very good source in the debate...
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 7/29/2002 6:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | On the whole I agree with Terry B that social factors are more determinative in bringing about change than strictly intellectual factors. But two points a) I think it would overly pessimistic to say that the cogency of ideas and their empirical fit do not sometimes play a big role in determining whether an idea becomes accepted or not. This may not be the case in theology too often, but it is in science. and B) one has to consider the social factors broadly. So, for example, there may not be much particular social gain from the OV itself (though there is some, I believe). But there is a great deal of social gain from the GENERAL PARADIGM that is being birth in many fields of reality being dynamic. And this general paradigm is slowly -- ever so slowly -- conditioning the way people think about the world. And the OV is the theological stance that best squares with this GENERAL PARADIGM.
So, I think the OV will someday become quite standard, not just because it is the most intellectually defensible (though I think it is) or most biblically grounded (though I think it is) or because it has the most practical social advantages (thought I think it does). It will become standard also -- and one could argue primarily -- because it fits with an arising worldview that has tremendous social advantages, especially via the sciences.
What do you think?
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  BBBCanada Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 2763 | Posted 7/29/2002 12:05 PM (GMT -6) |   |
quote: ...So, I think the OV will someday become quite standard, not just because it is the most intellectually defensible (though I think it is) or most biblically grounded (though I think it is) or because it has the most practical social advantages (thought I think it does). It will become standard also -- and one could argue primarily -- because it fits with an arising worldview that has tremendous social advantages, especially via the sciences.
What do you think?
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6
Greg, I have often thought, "What happens, say, in five hundred years, science throws this 'dynamic worldview' out?" Say it goes back to a more static view of reality. Is that possible? Would that be out of the question? And if so (possible), what would that mean for theology and the OV in particular?
Brandon "Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 7/29/2002 6:14 PM (GMT -6) |   | Dude, even God doesn't know THAT
If the dynamic worldview fell out of favor and went back to a more static worldview, I'm sure this would eventually affect people's receptivity to the open view, for dominant worldviews always influence people. But I would hope the open theists would do exactly what the Calvinists are doing now -- bucking the dominant current and defending their view on the basis of (thier reading of Scripture).
I want it to be clear that in predicting that the open view will become standard BECAUSE the dominant worldview is changing, I am NOT AT ALL saying that we should adjust our worldview to keep up with the dominant worldview. I am speaking DESCRIPTIVELY, not PRESCRIPTIVELY.
Blessings
Doc
ps. The dynamic worldview will change many forms, I'm sure. But I'm convinced it will never loose its dynamism. This is here to stay. I could try to defend this conviction if I had time, but I've been on 20 minutes longer than I promised my wife (whose waiting for me in bed). Plus, we just watched a piece on the News about Addiction to the Internet -- NOT a good combination is it. 
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 6:43 PM (GMT -6) There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads. In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3 dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|