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kerygma
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 8/6/2002 6:56 AM (GMT -6)

First, since this is my first post, I wanted to let everyone know that I am a Christian. (Might have been obvious from my "ID"!) These days frankly the only theological question I truly struggle with, that matters, is "If it is true that those who have not heard the gospel of Christ will perish, how can we realistically consider God a loving God?" Now, I'm not talking about those who have heard the gospel of Christ. I'm straight with that.

But what about those who have not heard the gospel of Jesus? And among this group, there might be a difference between those who sincerely worship God as they know Him, but not have not heard of Jesus Christ and others depending on what they have "done" with God's general revelation to them. I have not seen a satisfying exegesis, or explanation or analysis anywhere, including this message board yet. This frustrates me. It is fundamental and something God would want us to know. Can anyone help me and/or point me to good explanations on the web and/or in books?

I ask this for two reasons. One, out of love of man. And second, out of a need to defend the Christian faith to unbelievers who ask this question.

Thanks!

In His peace,

Scott

markus
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100

Posted 8/6/2002 7:55 AM (GMT -6)

Dear Kerygma,

As much as I would love to, I am not able to answer your question, but maybe I can offer you some thoughts to ponder about (which helped me much with my own continuing struggle with this issue).

I think that the well-known "faith" Chapter in Hebrews Ch 11, offers some good evidence that knowledge of Christ is not a pre-requisite to salvation (although He IS the (Gate)Way to salvation for everyone). It lists a number of faithful people who lived before Christ, including non-Jews, who, since they are held up to us as fine examples of faith in the Bible, could not be damned through lack of knowing Christ during their lives.

I also think that we are still living in the transient stage during which the Gospel is being spread throughout the world, and that God has His "interim plan" if you like to think of it as such. I believe the Bible expresses quite much about people being judged according to how much they know or has been revealed to them. In other words more is expected of us who have the gospel than those without. But God HAS clearly revealed Himself to all people in a general sense throughout the history of mankind - as proved by the consistent evidence of primitive worship and beliefs in various Gods by so many early races.

I am sorry if the following item is a bit long, but I think it contains some interesting arguments. I have no idea of its origin, it was sent to me quite some time ago by a friend in response to my own expression of the same question as yours:

By an unknown author:

How can those who never heard about Christ be saved?

The entire Western history and culture has a Christian background. However, finding a proper answer to this question is important for many people today. It may help them understand better the fact that Christ’s sacrifice is indeed the solution for any human in this world, including those who lived prior to his incarnation, or after this event, in geographical areas not reached by Christian missionaries.

Two extremes should be avoided when addressing the salvation of those who have never heard about Christ. First, if humans could be saved only by hearing about Him, the multitudes which never had this chance during their lifetime would necessarily be damned to eternal suffering in hell. It is obvious that this cruel kind of God cannot be the God who died for them on the cross as absolute proof of His love. If He is all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful, He must have a solution for those who have never heard about His final revelation in Jesus Christ.

Second, if all other religions were valid ways to God, the Christian claim of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross being the only possibility for man’s salvation should be rejected. If any human could have worked out his salvation by performing righteous deeds, rituals, meditations, etc., as his native religion requires, God shouldn’t have adopted such a dramatic and absurd solution for our sins as the crucifixion. The rise of Christianity as a new world religion would have been useless, and Jesus only one savior among many.

However, Jesus Himself claimed to be the only possibility for any human’s salvation and reconciliation with God. He said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14,6). He commanded his disciples to go and proclaim this truth in the entire world (Matthew 28,18-20; Mark 16,15-16) and they did it (Acts 4,12). If other religions were as good as Christianity in attaining salvation, the effort of Christian missionaries would be absurd. Why would so many have sacrificed their lives, only to proclaim one of the many alternatives man has to reach God?
Therefore we cannot sacrifice the importance of Jesus’ atonement on the altar of modern syncretism. According to Christianity, salvation is provided only as a result of the specific historical acts performed by Jesus Christ in His life, death on the cross, resurrection and ascension. What He did is absolutely essential for the salvation of any human being who has ever lived, whether thousands of years BC or nowadays. Without Christ, no human could ever share eternal life with God.

As a result of the above considerations, we have to face a dilemma: Jesus Christ is the only way to God, but it cannot be possible that only those who have heard about Him can be saved. Salvation must be available also for those who haven't heard about Christ. The element which solves this dilemma is the criteria according to which God will judge those who never heard about Christ and grant them salvation. The Bible states that God is holy and will judge humans with justice (Acts 17,31), according to the available measure of revelation they had and their response to it, expressed through their deeds (Romans 2,6), words (Matthew 12,36-37) and thoughts (Hebrews 4,12). The amount of revelation one has determines a consequent measure of responsibility on his part (Luke 12,47-48). In the Western world, anyone has elementary knowledge about Christianity, and therefore the terms of one's salvation are clear. As to those who never had the chance to hear the Christian message, it is obvious that their judgment will require other criteria than responding to the historical Jesus Christ.

God’s desire for all humans to be saved cannot be questioned. The Apostle Paul states: “God wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2,4). The same is stated by the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 3,9). The important thing to clarify, then, is how does God show His grace to those who die without ever having heard about Jesus Christ?

General revelation

There is no doubt that any human has been presented God’s general revelation, which is through nature, conscience and culture. According to how they respond to it, the Apostle Paul proves (in the first three chapters of his Epistle to the Romans) that all humans are sinful and deserve condemnation, even in the absence of any coherent Christian message. This is the result of consciously rejecting general revelation; both the external one, that of creation, and the internal one, that of conscience. Creation is by itself a testimony about the Creator available to any human, as a kind of symbolic preaching that anyone can understand:

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse (Romans 1,20).

Out of all things that have been made by Him, man is the highest of all. Man was created in God's image and likeness, as a personal agent that is now in search of meaning and fulfillment. If the external revelation of nature is not enough, then the internal one, that of conscience, is even more significant. Man’s conscience knows intuitively God’s moral standards and warns when they are trespassed:

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them (Romans 2,14-15).

Anyone who performs evil is consciously acting contrary to the demands of his conscience. (However, conscience can become perverted itself, but only after a process of constantly rejecting its natural right demands.) The true problem of man is not the lack of revelation, but a wrong way of responding to it (Romans 1,21-23). Therefore, God could find enough reasons to judge and condemn those who never heard about Christ. Due to the fact that He could condemn them on the basis of their response to general revelation, the next point is to see how they could still be saved.

Grace attributed retroactively

If those who never heard about Christ could be saved only as a result of their response to general revelation, we should also accept that salvation can be attained as a reward for one’s good deeds. But the Bible states clearly that nobody can earn his salvation through morality or good deeds (Ephesians 2,8-9). However, the Bible also speaks about people who never heard about Christ but still are saved (Hebrews 11). Before analyzing these cases, it should be emphasized that if salvation depended exclusively on how much information one had about Christ, we would fall into the trap of Gnosticism (salvation through attaining right knowledge). Knowledge doesn't save us, but only God, as we respond in faith to His revelation, no matter how limited it might be. God does not limit His grace to those who have enough information of Him. As the examples mentioned in The Letter to the Hebrews (chapter 11) prove, the salvation of those who never heard about Christ depends on two basic requirements: 1) their response to the amount of revelation they had, which is their responsibility; 2) the retroactive conferring of Christ’s sacrifice, on the basis of the faith they manifested through properly responding to general revelation, which is God’s responsibility. Let us analyze how this works.

The 11th chapter of the Letter to the Hebrews gives many examples of people who lived in the Old Testament time and were saved without hearing about Jesus Christ. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, David and others, are all considered heroes of faith, despite the fact that none of them heard about Christ. Jacob (Genesis 49,10), Moses (Deuteronomy 18,15) and David (Psalm 22) prophesied about His coming, but didn’t understand too much about its soteriological value. Others like Rahab (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31), Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5,1-19; Luke 4,27), Melchizedek (Genesis 14,17-20; 7,2,15-17) and Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses (Exodus 18), were saved although they didn’t even belong to the people of Israel. They accepted the small amount of revelation they got, responded in faith and as a result God conferred on them the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Faith is the key element here. It means trusting in the promises of God and responding through effective action to His initiative (Hebrews 11,1-3). Faith is not limited to understanding the doctrine of atonement, but rather engaging in a trusting relationship with God.

While analyzing these famous examples of the Old Testament, we can observe the various kinds of revelation they had from God: Noah was warned about the imminent coming of the flood; his response proved his faith in God’s promise to save him together with his family (Genesis 6-9). Abraham trusted God’s promise that he would be blessed with a son and become the ancestor of a big nation (Genesis 12-22; Hebrews 11,8-19). God proclaimed him righteous because of his faith: “Abram believed the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness” (Genesis 15,6). Isaac, Jacob and Joseph, the descendants of Abraham, trusted in God and were blessed. Moses trusted that God would free the Jewish nation from Egyptian bondage and lead them into the Promised Land (Hebrews 11,20-22).
Not only people belonging to the chosen people of Israel were saved in the Old Testament time, but also Gentiles. Melchizedek was called “priest of the God Most High” (Genesis 14,18) without having any blood relation to Abraham. He worshipped the same God, and Abraham even paid tithes to him. Jethro, the father-in-law of Moses, finding out what God has done through the Jewish nation, accepted by faith that the God of Moses is the true god. Rahab, the prostitute (!), hearing about the approaching of Israel, risked her life in order to hide the Jewish scouts (Joshua 2,1-21; Hebrews 11,31). This was the effective way she expressed her faith in the true God and therefore was counted among the heroes of faith. Naaman the Syrian (2 Kings 5,1-19; Luke 4,27) banished his pride when he understood who the true God is, showing his faith by his decision to abandon idolatry.

All these people of the Old Testament, heroes of faith, have not been saved through their merits, but through the grace of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, retroactively attributed to them. Their faith was the instrument through which God granted them salvation, the same instrument He uses today for all people who accept the sacrifice of Christ as the atoning solution for their sins (Hebrews 11,39-40). Although the type of revelation differs (today we have available the final revelation of God, through Christ), the object of faith remains the same - God, and the basis of His forgiveness cannot be other than Christ’s sacrifice. For both those who lived before and after Jesus’ crucifixion, God’s forgiveness was always granted through grace and not by one’s own merits, and the proper way of accepting grace was and will always be faith. The sacrifice of Christ is the element that validates the faith of humans who lived both before and after His incarnation

Salvation for those who never heard about Christ but accept the importance of grace
The above considerations do not imply that all those who don’t know anything else than their native religion are automatically condemned. There have been enough spiritual masters who recognized the necessity of grace and the impossibility of reaching salvation by one’s own efforts. Ramanuja and Madhva are brilliant examples in the Hindu tradition, as is Shantideva in Mahayana Buddhism. More than that, the entire spiritual trend called prapatti in Hinduism, or the Pure Land school of Buddhism, focuses on grace as the only solution for attaining liberation. According to them, the whole merit for getting saved belongs to the god (in Hinduism) or bodhisattva (in Buddhism) they worship. There are also many cases of tribal religions in which grace plays a key role in salvation.

The God who reveals Himself in the Bible knows man’s inner attitude and his motivation for performing certain religious duties. All efforts which point toward self-justification are of no value, no matter how impressive they could be. However, if man’s attitude is one of humility, recognizance of his own weakness, and acceptance of grace, which God offers unconditionally, the situation in completely different.

Such spiritual trends in other religions prove that the Holy Spirit is at work in the world, convincing people of their sin and turning their hearts toward God. According to the character displayed by the God of Christianity, He will save such people, by the grace available for all in Jesus Christ. They will be saved not through their native religion, but despite of it, as a reward for their humility and recognition of the need for grace. If there are many or few people in this category we cannot know.

A classic example of how people belonging to cultures completely foreign to the Judeo-Christian world can still have a revelation of God and meet him is the Magi from the east mentioned in Matthew 2,1-12. Despite the fact that they were astrologers and probably believed that human destiny is shaped by the stars, which is contrary to biblical teaching, they still were granted a special revelation from God regarding His major intervention on earth to save humankind from sin. They worshipped Jesus as King of the Jews and brought Him gifts worthy of a king. Some theological speculations see the gifts as pointing to His divine nature (gold), His divine priesthood (incense) and sacrifice (myrrh was used for embalming). Their coming to Judea was obviously not customary. It was not a rule for the Magi to worship the kings there at their birth. This episode was rather a surprise for all, and a serious reason for Herod to feel his throne threatened. This example shows that God can use unorthodox methods to reveal Himself to those who are completely foreign to His revelation in the Bible. He has sufficient means to do it all over the earth. The most important factor, again, is human response to His revelation, as the Magi could have ignored the Bethlehem star. However, their journey proves their faith and brings them to worship the true God.

Man’s problem has never been the lack of revelation, but only pride and refusal to change his attitude towards grace. People do not respond to the amount of revelation they already have; they know what to do, but refuse to do it. Most of Jesus’ contemporaries rejected Him because they refused to believe, despite all fulfilled prophecies, miracles, healings and even His resurrection. The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16,19-31) is extremely relevant here. People are given everything they need in order to be saved, but if they refuse the available revelation, they are fully responsible for it and cannot be justified at God’s judgment. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ tells us that man lacks any chance to please God by his own efforts, that God’s grace in Jesus was an absolute necessity and His love for us was big enough to save us from the spiritual disaster to which our illusory independence would have brought us.

One more aspect should be addressed here: If people can be saved without ever hearing about Christ, does it mean that Christian missions are futile? There are two important reasons to reject this hypothesis. Before mentioning them, it should be acknowledged that if the salvation of tribes living in remote areas depended entirely on missionaries’ preaching, a lot of people will suffer eternal damnation in hell only because Christian missionaries didn’t manage to reach their part of the world in time. In many cases the disobedience of Christians to go into remote parts of the world would be responsible for that. Even worse would be the case of missionaries that have reached remote parts of the world but didn't preach the "right" Jesus. Remember the way most Spanish conquistadors have proclaimed Jesus to the people of (today's) Latin America. They haven't preached the true image of Jesus Christ (a loving Jesus). Therefore, condemning people to hell because of the sin of some Christians isn’t at all consistent with God’s perfect justice and love for the lost.

There are two important reasons for Christian mission in the world. First, Jesus himself commanded it (Matthew 28,18-20). He is the final revelation of God and His message of salvation has to be proclaimed “to the ends of the earth” (Acts 1,8). That people can be saved without hearing about Christ is only a temporary solution, which operates only until His message will reach all humans. Second, all people should share the fullness and blessings of the Christian life, not only in eternity, but also during this present earthly life. The love of God in a personal relation with Him and also in the Christian community can be experienced starting from now, as Jesus came to redeem our earthly life as well.

I hope this gives you at least a little nourishment for your thoughts.....

Markus

Edited by - markus on 08/06/2002 1:02:50 PM

writerdad
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 8/6/2002 8:11 AM (GMT -6)

Sanders did an excellant book on this: What About Those Who Have Never Heard?', which gives three distinct views. As for me, I have never taken the have to hear of Jesus to be saved view. I take a more inclusivistic view. We are all saved by Jesus, but some will be saved by him even though they have never heard of him. Harold

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 8/6/2002 8:13 AM (GMT -6)

Kerygma, you might appreciate a book by Clark Pinnock called "The Wideness of God's Mercy." It deals directly with your question, and offers---I think---some satisfying answers.

Good to have you here!

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

Electra
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 8/6/2002 8:14 AM (GMT -6)

Welcome, kerygma! Great name, great question. Electra

~·• kyrie eleison ·~•~· christe eleison ·~•~· kyrie eleison •·~

SeaKayaker
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 21

Posted 8/17/2002 11:56 AM (GMT -6)

Hello...

I may not be able to give a complete answer to your question, but I would like to reference some verses that have helped me understand this.

Rom 1:18-23

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

This clearly says that everyone knows God, hence everyone has an obligation to worship Him. No one can say that he never knew.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Chris

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 8/17/2002 3:10 PM (GMT -6)

Subjectively here, were you God, would you just send people to hell because they didn't hear the gospel officially? That's not the kind of God portrayed in the Bible. If we wouldn't do this, why do we think God would? Mind you, I'm not saying that He just lets folks in, as if their sin just goes unaccounted. No, the blood of Jesus would have to be appropriated to that person. (Do I believe this is what God does for those who've not heard the gospel? Not sure I believe it. I'm just trying to put flesh and blood on a God who loves more so than we do.)

Secondly, Scripture doesn't come out and directly say "Sorry, if you didn't hear the gospel, you're had." Romans chapters 1-2 are used to insinuate that those who haven't heard the gospel will be judged by their hearts (with no chance of being saved; they're just being shown that they rightfully deserved eternity apart from God.) However, there's room to interpret this outside of such a narrow crevice.

The jury may not have yet decided about such a question--do those who've never heard the gospel perish. Not as far as I know.

For the . . . lost . . . I suppose!

Starkman

diamondd
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 42

Posted 8/17/2002 7:41 PM (GMT -6)

hey kerygma,

great question! for a long time i struggled (and still do sometimes

) with the issue of the "unevangelized" (in the definition of this word, besides those who haven't heard due to geographical and linguistic barriers, i would also include those who haven't received the gospel in a proper manner due to various factors such as cultural, intellectual, psychological barriers as well as such things as mental handicaps, death in infancy (which most Christians will grant salvation too, but aren't as generous with the rest of the unevangelized), and negative experiences and preconceptions ofthe gospel and it's presenters (Christians), and so on).

a great book/study to read on this issue is by John Sanders and it's called "No Other Name: An Investigation into the Destiny of the Unevangelized." As Sanders states in his book, and i agree, is that the struggle lies in the two axioms that we find in scripture:
1.God's Universal Salvic Will - that is that God desires that everyone be saved (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
2.The Particularity and Finality of Salavation in only Jesus - meaning that it is only though Jesus that we are saved (Acts 4:12).

and so i believe that any answer has to be worked out in these two boundaries. yes it can be frustrating cause God doesn't seem to make the issue entirely clear, and often times it has to be worked out through careful theological and philosophical thought. it's not that bad however if you don't take the hardline. but many in mondern christianity seem to gravitate to the extremities such as exclusivism, mostly out out of certain fears i believe rather than objective reasoning and the truth. however there are number of people like myself, and especially those in the "scholarly" circles, who espouse the belief of inclusivism, which i think is worth your study. some who hold these beliefs are people like sanders, clark pinnock, cs lewis, gred boyd (i think), etc. inclusivist believe that Jesus is "ontologically but not epistemologically neccesary for salvation (people must know him but not neccesarily know that they know him (across the spectrum - boyd and eddy))." this is a big issue that requires more thorough study, but basically inclusivist hold that salvation depends on how we respond to the light or general revalation we've been given. are our hearts inclined to things of God's character such as love, mercy, selflessness, etc.,or is our heart opposed to it, and inclined to things not of God's character such as hate, greed, selfishness, etc. i believe that God is more concerned if our heart is in the right place in accordance with the truth then if our mind is in the right place and we have all our information correct (Romans 2:6-16). Although being well informed is an advantage and knowing "who" your savior is gives you an assurance, it basically comes down an argument over God's character: Is he graciously, loving, and just, or is he not? My moral conscience says that God is loving and what is loving is not to send people to hell for a belief they never recieved in full, and i think many people would agree. would God have lied to us in our morality? i don't believe so.

welp, so these are just a few thoughts on the issue, i hope it made sense. i hope you have a great day and i encourage you to read that book by sanders if you are really curious about the issue. peace.

-David

diamondd
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 42

Posted 8/17/2002 7:56 PM (GMT -6)

also to SeaKayaker,

you said:
"This clearly says that everyone knows God, hence everyone has an obligation to worship Him. No one can say that he never knew."

i am not saying your were, but i've heard a lot of people quote those passages from the first chapter of romans to mean that God is therefore justified and off the hook for damnation of the good majority of humanity through out history who have not heard the gospel. i think we need to be careful and define what it means to "know God" and to "worship Him." is general revalation enough for salvation or only damnation? i think romans 2:6-16 provides good information on this that often gets overlooked. alright, enough for now. love the truth, love others.

peace,

David

SeaKayaker
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 21

Posted 8/18/2002 12:57 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I was somewhat surprised over the interpretations of Romans one and two presented, so I would like to look into this a little more. First, though, I would like to provide a little background to myself that may prove relevant to the discussion. I have a sister that is a little over a year younger than I am and who is severely mentally retarded (the PC term is developmentally delayed). She is sixteen but mentally at the level of a one and a half year old. She cannot talk or understand more than a few simple phrases. It has taken over ten years to teach her how to scoop liquefied food with a spoon and put it to her mouth (and she still requires assistance). She is officially a member of a church (she does not take communion but that is because she cannot chew bread or swallow liquid from a cup). What will happen to her when she dies? My family has wondered about this for years, so this is not a topic I approach lightly. I am not sure of how God will deal with this sort of an issue, but I trust that He is just and merciful. His decision will be the best possible one, whatever it is.

With that background, I would like to present some observations on the teachings of scripture on this topic. First, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” and “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 3:23, 6:23). So:
All people are people who have sinned
All people who have sinned are people who deserve death
Therefore, all people deserve death
Q.E.D.

However, there is justification through Jesus who, being very man and very God, was sinless, and thus able to atone for sin, was man, and therefore able to atone for man’s sin, and was God, and hence able to atone for the sins of everyone who would be saved. Salvation occurs when God counts Christ’s righteousness as ours. He promises this for “all who believe” (Romans 3:22). That is the condition that God sets. Because man sins against God, God would be perfectly just to punish all men with eternal damnation in Hell. Amazingly, however, he does not do this, but saves some. God is under no obligation to save, or indeed, do anything, for anyone; "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" (Romans 11:35). What, exactly, then do people have to know about Christ for salvation? Knowledge has multiple senses, but I do believe that it is possible to intellectually affirm any number of true statements about God without having a saving knowledge of or relationship with Him. Therefore, there is some knowledge of God necessary for salvation, but also a relationship with Him in Christ. Could people have this without realizing it? Could it be subconscious? Well, I personally doubt it. Can you have a loving relationship with a person without realizing that you know the person, without knowing who the person is? Romans 1:18ff talks about the wrath of God being revealed against those who knew God but not in a saving knowledge. If the heavens, and indeed, all creation, including man, shout forth the glory of God, woe to him who refuses to worship his Creator!

Soli Deo Gloria,
Chris

diamondd
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 42

Posted 8/19/2002 8:17 PM (GMT -6)

hey Chris,
i am hoping to respond to what you said asap, but right now i am tired and in no shape to be as thorough as would like, so hopefully after work i will respond. so, until then have a good one.

peace,

David

diamondd
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 42

Posted 8/20/2002 4:34 PM (GMT -6)

hey chris,

well here we go, we'll see if this makes sense, it's kind of off the seat of my pants

quote:
First, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” and “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 3:23, 6:23). So:
All people are people who have sinned
All people who have sinned are people who deserve death
Therefore, all people deserve death

-well, i am not very convinced by these passages as meaning that we deserve to burn in hell or go to hell, however you see it. Rather I believe they are stating the fact that the fall of man with adam produced earthly death and possibly eternal death, however, Christ provides life. As the second half of the verse says: “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.” It seems like a stretch to me to take these verses as saying we are all damned. Apart from Christ, yes we would be, but with Christ’s atonement, we are given life.

quote:
Salvation occurs when God counts Christ’s righteousness as ours

-exactly! But how is it counted as ours, is it because we are righteous or is it because we have the correct knowledge? Like I said, is the general revelation you quote from romans 1 only enough to damn, or is it enough to save? If it’s enough to save, then how do people obtain all the correct theological information if it’s not given. Is it really necessary to have all the info correct then? If general revelation is only enough to damn, then how can a loving God allow the majority of humanity only the opportunity to be damned, since they are not afforded enough information for salvation? I believe we have too limited a view of the universal work and provision God made for us on the cross. I believe Jesus died for all of humanity, not just those who have all the correct info. Did Jesus really become human and come to earth to die and rise again for the salvation of just the privileged few who are able to hear the message of the gospel, while the good majority of human history will be damned. Does God then really desire that all be saved and earnestly seek for their salvation (1 Tim. 2:3-4), when most people only have the opportunity to be damned. OR does God who desires EVERYONE(not just the privileged few) to be saved, loving and gracious enough to allow the opportunity for all to be saved even though in many circumstances through out the world and history, people are not provided with all the correct info? This is what inclusivist argue. God is more concerned with the position of your heart then the position of your mind. Like you said many have knowledge but it doesn’t mean they are saved.

quote:
He promises this for “all who believe” (Romans 3:22). That is the condition that God sets.

-Actually it’s interesting to study the various ways the bible says we may be saved, here are a few:
*Mt 19:14 – kingdom of heaven belongs to children
*Mt 19:16, Mk 10:17, Lk 18:18 – Rich man ask how he can be saved and after Jesus asked if he has kept the commandments, he is instructed to sell his possessions and he will then inherit eternal life.
*Mk 16:16 (a passage that was not found in many early manuscript which many scholars don’t believe is canonical) – to be saved one must be baptized and believe
*Ro 2:7 – those who seek glory, honor and immortality will inherit eternal life (so the positon of one’s heart in relationship to the truth)
*Ro 2:12-16 – the gentiles who don’t have the law do the law by what’s written on their hearts and this defends them before God’s judgement, and they are judge “through” Jesus. (an example of not having all the information correct, yet being judged through Christ. It’s ontological not epistemological)
Ro 11:26 – talks about all Israel saved, which is an interesting passage

-while these are just a few and often times I think they get ignored and over looked, for maybe the purpose of more slick dogma. Maybe it seems like a contradiction to have various ways of salvation, but maybe not if you believe that they are all pointing to God’s basic concern of where your heart is in accordance to the truth. Yes, the Bible says you must believe, however you must look at who it was written/said to(mostly Jews), and also you have to take it in correlation with these and other passages.

quote:
Because man sins against God, God would be perfectly just to punish all men with eternal damnation in Hell. Amazingly, however, he does not do this, but saves some. God is under no obligation to save, or indeed, do anything, for anyone; "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" (Romans 11:35).

-fine, but then can we go on claiming that God is loving? This is a pretty vindictive portrait of God that doesn’t seem to agree with the loving God we read in the bible. It also ignores the passages where God says he desires all to be saved and that he is genuinely seeking their salvation. Why would Jesus pay the price for out salvation, if God’s intent is to damn most of the world. This seems absurd to me, it seems against his very nature, so I don’t believe it is perfectly just.

quote:
Knowledge has multiple senses, but I do believe that it is possible to intellectually affirm any number of true statements about God without having a saving knowledge of or relationship with Him. Therefore, there is some knowledge of God necessary for salvation, but also a relationship with Him in Christ. Could people have this without realizing it? Could it be subconscious? Well, I personally doubt it. Can you have a loving relationship with a person without realizing that you know the person, without knowing who the person is?

-what about the saints in the OT who did not know of Christ? There was those who weren’t actually Jewish, like Job, but however where considered saints, how do we account for this? Also, many make provision for infant salvation, but aren’t so generous with other groups of people. I believe a person can be in a loving relationship with the truth as it is revealed to them. I think we’ve modernized and popularized the term “relationship” with God as to mean some fluffy idea of playing hop scotch or whatever have you with God. It’s not a relationship like a human relationship, I believe it is more metaphysical.

quote:
Romans 1:18ff talks about the wrath of God being revealed against those who knew God but not in a saving knowledge. If the heavens, and indeed, all creation, including man, shout forth the glory of God, woe to him who refuses to worship his Creator!

-This is a good point, because how does creation shout out the praises of God? What does it mean to praise God? Is nature and all the rocks and mountains and so on in correct theological mindsets. Do they actually “sing forth the name of Christ,” or is it something more basic in nature? I believe that it is more the latter. People take this to mean that man must have all the theological information correct in their worship. worship is more than just singing songs. I believe it’s a life style that lives in the truth, or the charcteristics of God as best known and as revealed.

-ok sorry this was really long, but it’s a huge issue and you’d have to write a book to really adequetely answer these questions. That is why I encourage you to read a book like John Sanders “No Other Name” if you want to study inclusivism. I hope this made sense. I enjoy the dialogue.

Peace,

David

BJS
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587

Posted 8/20/2002 5:20 PM (GMT -6)

Good work, David.

Brett

"Siste viator et memento mori."

kerygma
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 8/22/2002 6:53 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful comments! Markus, your long piece by the unknown author was particularly thorough, but I do appreciate everyone's contributions, it has helped me.

One point I came across is addressed to those unbelievers who reject Christ/God because they think God is unfair or unloving over this question. C.S. Lewis said it well, basically that "this answer may be a mystery, but with your (the unbeliever's) knowledge, surely you are condemning yourself to Hell with that attitude.":

"Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should be confined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is God has not told us what His arrangements about other people are. We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him. But in the meantime, if you are worried about the people outside, the most unreasonable thing you can do is remain outside yourself." C. S. Lewis

Also, here are some helpful links. I am not vouching for or agreeing with their content, but they seemed to help me as well.

http://www.cmf.org.uk/evang/conf/never.htm
http://www.pccorner.com/ato/ato_ch6.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9778/neverheard.html
http://www.theology.edu/faq07.htm
http://www.webedelic.com/church/heathen.htm
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0605/q0605.html
http://www.grmi.org/renewal/Richard_Riss/evidences2/28nev.html
http://net-burst.net/hot/heathen.htm

In His peace,

Scott

"And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus" Philippians 4:19

SeaKayaker
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 21

Posted 8/26/2002 2:48 AM (GMT -6)

David,

Thanks for your post. I will post some comments on it soon, DV.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Chris

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