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|  1way Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 299 | Posted Today 6:53 PM (GMT -6) |   | POW - Thanks, but as to quote: I'll let you have that last word!
That was the last thing I wanted. But, now that I see after visiting Bob's web site that he also is not coming back, I feel little welcome or support or leading to stay as well. Abbie and chance and now Bob have all abandoned. And here I am, a person humbly unprepared to venture much further. At least you and Kyle and that poetic (profile) apparently atheist lade gave me some room and consolations. Of all, I appreciate your treatment the best, it took a lot of good heart to offer what you have, my peace and yours reconciled and remain.
I love Jesus Christ, I love those who love Him.
I just hoped to discuss the differences in a mutually productive and edifying manner. Maybe some other time. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/17/2001 6:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | 1way, over on the other thread you sounded like you need a good destraction! WELL, HERE IT IS!!!
This is from about St. Matthew. ==================================
quote: The Holy Apostle and Evangelist Matthew, was also named Levi (Mk 2:14; Lk 5:27); he was an Apostle from among the Twelve (Mk 3:18; Lk 6:45; Acts 1:13), and was brother of the Apostle James Alphaeus (Mk 2:14). He was a publican, i.e., a tax-collector for Rome, in a time when the Jews had come under the rule of the Roman empire. He lived in the Galileian city of Capernaum [Capharnum]. Matthew, in hearing the voice of Jesus Christ: "Come, follow Me" (Mt 9:9), left off from his duties and followed the Saviour. Christ and His disciples did not refuse the invitation of Matthew and they visited at his house, where they shared table with the friends and acquaintances of the publican -- who like the host were publicans and known sinners. This event extremely bothered the pharisees and scribes ["knizhniki", lit. bookmen or scholars].
Publicans, in collecting taxes from their countrymen, did this with great profit for themselves. Usually greedy and cruel people, the Jews considered them pernicious and betrayers of their country and religion. The word "publican" connoted for the Jews the sense of "public-sinner" and "idol-worshipper." To even speak with a tax-collector was considered a sin, and to associate with one -- was defilement. But the Jewish teachers were not able to comprehend, that the Lord was "come to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Mt 9:13).
Matthew, acknowledging his sinfulness, recompensed fourfold anyone he had overcharged, and he distributed his remaining possessions to the poor, and together with the other apostles he followed after Christ. Saint Matthew was attentive to the instructions of the Divine Teacher, he beheld His innumerable miracles, he went together with the 12 apostles preaching to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Mt 10:6), he was a witness to the suffering, death, and Resurrection of the Saviour, and of His glorious Ascension into Heaven.
Having received the gifts of the grace of the Holy Spirit, which descended upon the apostles on the day of Pentecost, the Apostle Matthew for the first 8 years preached in Palestine. And before his departure to preach the Gospel in faraway lands, at the request of the Jews remaining at Jerusalem, the holy Apostle Matthew in his Gospel gave account of the earthly life of the Saviour of the world -- of the God-man Jesus Christ and His teaching.
In the order of the books of the New Testament, the Gospel of Matthew comes first. Palestine is said to be the place of writing of the Gospel. The Gospel was written by Saint Matthew in the year 42 ([AD -- "Anno Domini" or "Year of the Lord",] i.e. after the Birth of Christ), in his native Jewish language, and then translated into Greek. The Hebrew text has not survived for us, but many of the linguistic and cultural-historical peculiarities of the Greek translation remind of it.
The Apostle Matthew preached among people having quite certain religious expectations about the Messiah. His Gospel manifests itself as a vivid proof that Jesus Christ -- is the real Messiah, foretold of by the prophets, and that another there would not be (Mt 11:3). The preachings and deeds of the Saviour are presented by the evangelist in three divisions, constituting three aspects of the service of the Messiah: as Prophet and Law-Giver (Ch. 5-7), Lord over the world both visible and invisible (Ch. 8-25), and finally as High-Priest offered as Sacrifice for the sins of all mankind (Ch. 26-27). The theological content of the Gospel, besides the Christological themes, includes also the teaching about the Kingdom of God and about the Church, which the Lord sets forth in parables about the inner preparation for entering into the Kingdom (Ch. 5-7), about the worthiness of servers of the Church in the world (Ch. 10-11), about the signs of the Kingdom and its growth in the souls of mankind (Ch. 13), about the humility and simplicity of the inheritors of the Kingdom (Mt 18:1-35; 19 13-30; 20:1-16; 25-27; 23:1-28), and about the eschatological revelations of the Kingdom in the Second Coming of Christ within the daily spiritual life of the Church (Ch. 24-25). The Kingdom of Heaven and the Church are closely inter-connected in the spiritual experience of Christianity: the Church is the historical embodiment of the Kingdom of Heaven in the world, and the Kingdom of Heaven is the Church of Christ in its eschatological perfection (Mt 16:18-19; 28:18-20).
The holy Apostle made the rounds with the "good-news" [euangelia in Greek or evangelium in Latin -- the meaning of the word "gospel"] to Syria, Media, Persia, Parthia, and finishing his preaching work in AEthiopia with a martyr's death. T his land was inhabited by tribes of cannibals with primitive customs and beliefs. The holy Apostle Matthew by his preaching there converted some of the idol-worshippers to faith in Christ. He founded the Church and built a temple in the city of Mirmena, establishing there as bishop his companion by the name of Plato(n).
When the holy apostle was fervently beseeching God for the conversion of the Ethiopians during the time of prayer the Lord Himself appeared to him in the form of a youth, and having given him a staff, commanded him to put it upright at the doors of the church. The Lord said, that from this staff would grow a tree and it would bear fruit, and from its roots would flow a stream of water. And in washing themselves in the water and eating of the fruit, the Ethiopians lost their wild ways and became gentle and good.
When the holy apostle carried the staff towards the church, on the pathway there met him the wife and son of the ruler of the land, Fulvian, who were afflicted by unclean spirits. By the Name of Christ the holy apostle healed them. This miracle converted to the Lord quite a number of the pagans. But the ruler did not want that his subjects should become Christians and cease to worship the pagan gods. He accused the apostle of sorcery and gave orders to execute him. They put saint Matthew head downwards, heaped up brushwood and ignited it. When the bonfire flared up, everyone then saw, that the fire did no harm to Saint Matthew. Then Fulvian gave orders to add more wood to the fire, and frenzied with boldness, he commanded to set up around the bonfire 12 idols. But the flames spread to the idols and caught on even Fulvian. The frightened Ethiopian turned to the saint with an entreaty for mercy, and by the prayer of the martyr the flame went out. The body of the holy apostle remained unharmed, and he expired to the Lord (+60).
The ruler Fulvian deeply repented his deed, but still he had doubts. By his command, they put the body of Saint Matthew into an iron coffin and threw it into the sea. In doing this Fulvian said, that if the God of Matthew would preserve the body of the apostle in the water, as He preserved him in the fire, then this would be proper reason to worship this One True God.
On that night the Apostle Matthew appeared to Bishop Platon in a dream vision, and commanded him to go with clergy to the shore of the sea and to find his body there. Together with the bishop on his way to the shore of the sea went Righteous Fulvian and his retinue. The coffin carried back by the waves was with honour taken to the church built by the apostle. Then Fulvian begged forgiveness of the holy Apostle Matthew, after which Bishop Platon baptised him, giving him the name Matthew in obedience to a command of God. Soon Saint Fulvian-Matthew abdicated his rule and became a presbyter. Upon the death of Bishop Platon, the Apostle Matthew appeared to him and exhorted him to head the Ethiopian Church. Having become a bishop, Saint Matthew-Fulvian toiled much at preaching the Word of God, continuing with the work of his heavenly patron-saint.
Have fun 1way.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/18/2001 8:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | Wow, there was NO ART in that. Sounded like a detective reporting the facts. Is that monk merely reporting the tradition that he was taught? I mean, 1585 and 2001 aren't nearly as removed as 60 and 1585, so what of that is tradition? I will try to see what Eusebius says, he was a little closer to the right time (335).
Kyle Essary | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/18/2001 11:36 AM (GMT -6) |   | Here's your clarification, Kyle.
On that page were listed tow (2) Saints, Matthew and the "other guy" who lived in 1585. What you read of Matthew was very old. Us "Protestants" are allergic to even miracles--like where Matt is not killed on that attempt. So what are we to do with that all? But as to what you were wondering, the tradition that you read was pretty old! (Check the page out again. Feel free to surf too.) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Kyle Essary Registered Member
 Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 113 | Posted 11/18/2001 12:57 PM (GMT -6) |   | Yeah, that was kinda confusing because it looks like the text is there, then there is a line and the monk gets mentioned with a short bio. I thought that he was the author and that was a short bio of him. I like that site, especially the icons associated with the NT events, the calendar of feasts, and the interesting discussion about the name, rank and order of angels. Pretty interesting. I wish I had a better background in church tradition, but with your wonderful links PoW, it won't be long! (especially ccel.org!)
Kyle Essary | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/18/2001 3:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | Kyle, you mentioned: (especially ccel.org!)
That is also on CD. Harry Plantinga started it. It is currently hosted at Calvin College, MI. He started it while at Wheaton College, and it moves with him. The CD also has lots of non-old stuff.
Semeia: Its got George MacDonald. I read parts of "The Light Princess" to my boys!
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/25/2001 12:48 PM (GMT -6) |   | A Dispensationalist cyberfriend (Chance) -- who said it was all right to post this here kindly said: "You have to define what you mean by "Christian" first. I never say that Paul was the first "Christian". I believe that Paul was the first member of the Body of Christ for the following reasons." (my underlining)
Chance then listed three: - 1. To be a member of the Body you must believe the gospel committed to and preached by Paul. Specifically, the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery. The mystery is what makes the Body of Christ distinct from all that came before it. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile in the Body and that is an important distinction (Gal 1:8-9; 2:7a; 5:1-12; Eph 3:6).
- 2. A message must first be known to be believed. Because Paul was the first person to know of the mystery he is the first person who is able to believe the gospel, that is, the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.
- 3. Paul says he was the first (protos) to receive mercy in 1 Tim 1:16 and that he is a pattern for those who will believe. The passage may be saying that Paul, the chief (protos) sinner, received mercy. That's why I listed it last.
PoW: BOY, ON THE SURFACE OF THINGS MAKING A DISTINCTION BETWEEN "CHRISTIAN" AND "BODY OF CHRIST" MAKES ME BLINK!!!!!
PoW: Perhaps putting me on the spot, Chance asks me to follow up on his answer to a question I posed. I had remarked: "I REALLY WONDER HOW MUCH OF THE RICHNESS OF SCRIPTURE IS UNAVAILABLE TO YOU THEN. PARABLES ESPECIALLY." His response was that hey (Dispensationalists study the whole Bible; and that HE saw some advantages to beginning from his D-position.) He then said: "I would be interested in hearing your interpretation of the parable given in Luke 13:6-9."
PoW So, in posting this, I suppose I'm going to have to go read Luke 13:6-9 again, and put my thoughts AND ancillary research up here for all to gawk at.
PoW: BUT NOT TONIGHT -- We are just back from visits with family.
PoW: Oh... almost forgot. Chance also included this as answer to my mentioning that in Eastern Orthodoxy (and maybe Roman Catholicism) Mary is regarded as being the first Christian, complete with being filled with the Holy Spirit -- her own personal pentacost at the Annunciation by the Angel:
- Chance: Yes, I believe that Mary was a believer. I do not think she was a member of the Body because she apparently believed, as "the twelve" did, the gospel preached by Peter (the gospel of the circumcision Gal 2:7b) and I do not believe that those who believed the gospel preached by Peter ended up becoming members of the Body once they believed the gospel preached by Peter (which did not include the mystery). 1 Cor 7:18-20 may provide some support for the belief that those who believed Peter's gospel did not become members of the Body. There are those who do believe that "the twelve" and those who believed the gospel preached by Peter were able to become members of the Body, but the Scriptural record does not indicate that they did this (Acts 15:5; 21:20-21). What do you make of these passages in Acts that say these circumcision believers in Jerusalem still kept the law of Moses?
I hope that this is an interesting exchange. Any are welcome to join in!
PotOnWheel
Edited by - PotOnWheel on 11/26/2001 8:35:23 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/26/2001 4:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | I'll have to begin working on the Luke 13:6-9 parable.
Chance, as to your point #3 above: "Paul says he was the first (protos) to receive mercy in 1 Tim 1:16 and that he is a pattern for those who will believe. The passage may be saying that Paul, the chief (protos) sinner, received mercy. That's why I listed it last. I would most definitely agree with your LAST assessment. Of course that is the one that offers no support to your thesis. But it is one that I gather we both can REJOICE in and glorify God for!!! I definitley read that passage as indicating by "pattern" the pattern of God showing mercy, and not us all following Paul in some every-detail way. Chance, I see this as being wonderful liturature too. it has a flow, a build and a main point to make. Since I am not Dispensationalist I see God's mercy in including all those Gentile women in the lineage of the Redeemer of both Jews and Gentiles. (Luke's geneology makes the point of the universiality of salvation featuring many who were not kings, compared to Matthews list.)
In #s 1 & 2 is it fair to say that a functionable definition of "mystery" (which seems like a big term for you--and seems quite different from Eastern Orthodoxy uses it!) as: "mystery is [that] there is no difference between Jew and Gentile"? (That's what I got reading you.)
Am I way off on what you presented, Chance?
I'll go work on that parable.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Bob Hill Registered Member
 Date Joined Aug 2001 Total Posts : 98 | Posted 11/28/2001 9:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | MOT,
I've been working on this. The methodology of my dispensational approach to theology depends on some biblical commands that God inspired Paul to make. Unless Paul’s prayer in Phi 1:9-11 is fulfilled in us as we form our theology, people may die without Christ, and others may be in bondage because they are claiming the wrong promises. Let’s look at Paul’s prayer. Phi 1:9-11 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment,10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ,11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
I think we need this knowledge and discernment “that you may approve the things that are excellent”. This translation is acceptable, but it misses the point. What we really should be doing, is testing things that differ, and then approve the things that are more excellent. The BGD Greek Lexicon meaning for this phrase is: BGD, a. differ, be different fr. someone or someth. differ fr. someth. w. respect to someth. b. differ to one’s advantage fr. someone or someth.=be worth more than, be superior to. Abs., ta diaferonta, the things that really matter. ta diaferonta autois = what is important for them.
Notice its usage in 1 Th 5:21, “Test all things; hold fast what is good.” Then, when Paul was writing to the religious Jew who thought he had it made because of his own righteousness, he wrote, Romans 2:18, “and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent [Testing the things differing. Our phrase again.], being instructed out of the law”.
Then, Paul continued in Phi 1:10, “that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, 11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. I would translate the whole passage this way: And this I pray in order that your love may yet more and more overflow in knowledge and all perception, with this in view – that you test the things that differ in order that you may be pure and inoffensive (The central focus is knowledge that produces love, the love of Christ which is flooding their souls. They’ll be loving when they evangelize or discuss theology.) with this in view – the day of Christ (because they would be those) having been filled the fruits of righteousness [the fruits] through Jesus Christ with this in view – [the] glory and praise of God.
Our reward from God depends on two things: Testing things that differ. Living our lives in the Spirit. A parallel in 2 Ti 2:15 says, “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” And it’s all put together in Col 1:24b-2:2: I became a minister (of His body, the church) according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily. 2:1 For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ.
What about this methodology of testing the things that differ? What is the benefit? I heard Hank Hanigraff debating about works for salvation on the radio. A Catholic scholar, maintained that works were important for salvation. Hank maintained that the justification in James was not for salvation. Neither one could prove his position consistently. When I was on the radio some years ago, one subject kept coming up. A lady called in about her security of salvation. Another asked if she had to be baptized to be saved. Another wondered if her addiction (which she was fighting) would keep her from being saved. A guy called in a lot. He told us he thought we were heretics. That we made salvation too easy. That we needed to follow Christ’s teachings and do the works of the law to be saved.
These kinds of questions and statements affect me. They cause me great concern. Concern for both the Christians and the non-Christians of this world. When these questions surfaced in Galatia, Paul was amazed. Notice what he wrote in Gal 1:6-9: I’m amazed that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
When these questions come up, and they do, all the time, how should we feel? If Paul was inspired to write in verse 8, “even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed”, then, should we be sure what the gospel is for today? Since the purpose of the message of grace is love according to 1 Ti 1:5, Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, I mean, should we be concerned, is it right to be as concerned about what gospel is preached as Paul was with the Galatians? I believe the answer is, yes! And we must not only be concerned, but we must test the things that differ, because lives are at stake. Paul was “afraid for” those in the churches of Galatia.
Notice what he wrote in, Gal 4:9-11: But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
Well, what is the basis for testing the things that differ and why do we have such a problem? Christ was sent only to Israel. Mat 15:24 shows this, “But He answered and said, ‘I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.’” In support of this, Paul was inspired to write Romans 15:8, “Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers.”
When Israel rejected Christ, God raised up Paul with a different commission. Peter & the eleven and Paul ministered under different dispensations. Peter & the Eleven offered the Davidic kingdom. Acts 1:6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” Acts 3:18-21 “But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.”
Paul received the mystery, the dispensation of grace: Eph 3:1-9 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the of ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.
Peter and Paul had different gospels committed to them. Peter and the eleven had the circumcision gospel given to them. Gal 2:7-9 as the gospel of the circumcision [had been committed to] to Peter. . . and they [the twelve] to the circumcised. Paul was given the gospel of the uncircumcision: Gal 2:7-9 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me. . . we [Paul and Barnabas] should go to the Gentiles.
Here is the whole passage. Gal 2:7-9 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
The mission of the Twelve was given in Mat 28 and Mark 16: Mk 16:15-18 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
In contrast, the mission that Christ gave directly to Paul was to the Gentiles, but he also had a ministry to the Jews since there was no difference any more: 1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. Gal 1:11,12 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
The gospel Peter preached required faith to be demonstrated by works. Acts 10:34,35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”
In contrast, Paul explicitly said it was not of works. Rom 4:4,5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.
When Christ gave the 11 their commission in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, water baptism was necessary for salvation. Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
In contrast, Paul found out on his 2nd missionary trip that baptism was not part of his mission. Instead, Holy Spirit baptism was emphasized: 1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 1 Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body – whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free – and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. Eph 4:4,5 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Spiritual].
Whatever prayers were emphasized for the 12’s ministry: Mat 21:22 And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive. Mk 11:24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them. John 14:13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. John 16:23 Whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 1 Jo 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 1 Jo 5:15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
In contrast, Paul had no whatever prayers: 2 Co 12:8-10 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. Phi 4:6,7 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
For Peter and the 11, health and prosperity were emphasized, with sign gifts: Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Mark 16:17,18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Jam 5:14,15 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 3 John 2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.
Paul is told that these gifts will pass away with the completion of the canon for the body of Christ church. Sign gifts passed away: 2 Co 12:7-10 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me [not given by God (Jam 1:16,17), but allowed as with Job], a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 1 Ti 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities. 2 Ti 4:20 Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick.
There wasn’t security of the believer in the circumcision gospel and its epistles. There was a sin unto death: 1 Jo 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
In contrast, we in the body of Christ are dead to sin. Rom 6:3,11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 11 Likewise you also, recognize yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Under the circumcision gospel, they did not have security. Mat 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mat 24:13,14 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 2 Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble. 1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
Under the dispensation of grace, we are sure of our salvation: Eph 1:4,5,11-14 He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
With this methodology, I have read the biblical material and tested the things that differed. Then, I concluded there were changes in how God dealt with man at different times. The different methods are called dispensations. We are in the dispensation of grace/mystery. The next one will be the tribulation which will take place right after the rapture.
What should we do? I think we should first concentrate on loving God. Then, get concerned and learn how to present God’s message of grace. Then, lovingly share God’s wonderful gospel of grace. Then spend time teaching the message of grace to those who are faithful, realizing that the God of Open Theism is depending on us to reach the world for Him.
In Christ, Bob Hill
Edited by - Bob Hill on 11/29/2001 03:08:06 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/29/2001 12:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | Bob, Thank you for that well-ordered presentation of your view.
A side question that I'd like to ask, as it seems that you read in a kind of rigid, awkwardly literal fashion, is this: How many native Greek speakers do you know of who read the Bible the same way as you do? How many in Greece? (Why doesn't your view have a 2000 year running-history?) This view of yours seems well suited to reading and translating one word at a time. But how would those in Paul's time read it the way you do?
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 |  chance Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 157 | Posted 11/29/2001 5:40 AM (GMT -6) |   | POW asked
quote: Am I way off on what you presented, Chance?
You're right on! Looks like we will have a good discussion here POW. I have been pondering a few things not the least of which is tradition and what tradition I have come to reject and why I have rejected it. Looking forward to sharing that with everyone.
you said
quote: In #s 1 & 2 is it fair to say that a functionable definition of "mystery" (which seems like a big term for you--and seems quite different from Eastern Orthodoxy uses it!) as: "mystery is [that] there is no difference between Jew and Gentile"? (That's what I got reading you.)
You're basicly right on what I believe the mystery is as revealed in Scripture. More specificly, the Body of Christ is the mystery. A group that God had planned to have fellowship with (experience the Trinitarian love if you will) where racial distinctions are irrelevant (Rom 10:12; 1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:4,9; 3:4-6,9-11; Col 1:26; 3:10-11). God planned to have fellowship with this group before He created the universe (Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9; Tit 1:2). Israel was not God's original plan. God picked out a nation descended from one man, Abraham, because of the sinful world He had to deal with which was created (contrary to God's will) by the first Adam. Adam's sin and the state of the kosmos that resulted in the flood of the entire world save Noah and his extended family and the animals was not in any way part of God's original plan before the world began.
I am aware that my idea of mystery is quite different from the Eastern Orthodox idea of mystery. There's a simple reason for that. My view of the mystery comes from Scripture (see references given above) and how the word musterion is used in those passages. The EO view comes from the development of sacramental language. The Roman mass at one point says something like "We gather together to celebrate these sacred mysteries". The words mystery and sacrament are interchangeable in RC use and I assume it is the same in EO usage, right? With the loss of the relevance of the revelation of the mystery to Paul (which had tragic consequences) the word musterion (or its Latin equivalent) at some point became synonymous with the word sacramentum and that's why today the word mystery is synonymous with the word sacrament. You can read about this in that great reference book Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Quite a history the usage of the word mystery has. It took something like 27 pages to explain it all.
I think that's enough from me for now. I'll give you and others a chance to respond to what I've said this far.
To make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 11/29/2001 10:42:32 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/29/2001 12:21 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Sounds like an interesting discussion, Chance. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/29/2001 1:36 PM (GMT -6) |   | Chance, here are a few surface thoughts: - You affirmed that a functionable definition of "mystery" is the fact that in Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile"?
Let me say that I was comforted to read your treatment of the Decalog and Israel as being secondary initiations on God's part--I also think of Kings. The scope of salvation to be universal. That IS important. But the mystery is also following the line that "we chall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." I don't know whether I should read paul there as saying that mystery is only synonomous with "surprise." What if he is saying that an aspect of the mystery of salvation is our change. Metonoma becasue of our enhypsostasis into Christ.
So, the cross-culture and cross-gender part is wonderful and marvelous. But i'm not, surely not ready to end there.
[*] I had also said: "seems quite different from Eastern Orthodoxy uses it!" EO and RCC are pretty differnet in ways like that. And their spirituality are different.
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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 |  chance Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 157 | Posted 11/29/2001 11:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | POW said
quote: [*] I had also said: "seems quite different from Eastern Orthodoxy uses it!" EO and RCC are pretty differnet in ways like that. And their spirituality are different.
Is there anything online that you recommend I read to get a good grasp of how the word "mystery" is used to describe EO sacramentalism or "spirtuality" and how it differs from RC sacramentalism? I will go to Granger to talk with a friend of mine about the differences after work is over. Neat young guy, just ordained an RC priest earlier this month.
Will comment on the change that the Body undergoes as being a mystery in 1 Cor 15 as soon as I get back from Granger.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/30/2001 1:25 AM (GMT -6) |   | I DON't want to distance RCC from EO too much. But there are two things that I'd like to pull out of the air for fun. (And keep in mind that I grew up Swedish Baptist and attend a Christian Reformed Church most Sundays; though I go to Vespers at an OCA church on Saturday nights, and attend most Feast Days -- so if you can find a better source than me.....take it!) First, there is a clear anc helpful distinction between the definition of "spiritual" that is Neo-Platonic (which invades everything...Fundy, Evangelical, RCC bigtime, Protestant, and some where there were geopolitical incursions into Eastern Europe) versus "spiritual" that means both: what the Holy Spirit does, and actions (etc.) that are caused (e.g., fruit of the spirit) by the Spirit. That very literal definition might square well with those centuries of monasticism. contrasting to that is the etherial spirituality of "Extacy". No EO ever got a stigmatta!
Here is what I can find quickly on the search engine--of what I remember being out there.
The difference between Orthodox spirituality and other traditions, by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos (Metropolitan is higher than Bishop)
That writer is SUPER!!!!!!!! (see also a site with big portions of several of his books online for free)
...got to go get breakfast for the kids.
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/30/2001 2:34 AM (GMT -6) |   | Chance, here is another link:
The article is called: "What are the Differences Between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism?"
Here are the topic headings:
What are the Differences Between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism? By Father Michael Azkoul, St. Catherine Mission, St. Louis, MO 1. Faith and Reason 2. The Development of Doctrine 3. God 4. Christ 5. The Church 6. The Holy Canons 7. The Mysteries 8. The Nature of Man 9. The Mother of God 10. Icons 11. Purgatory 12. Other Differences | | Back to Top | | |
 |  chance Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 157 | Posted 11/30/2001 8:15 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks POW 
I talked with my priest pal in Granger and he said that the difference between the EO and RC views of mystery are negligible. He told me that the EO don't use instruments and that they have the iconography and all up around the altar area. I'll read those articles and forward them on to him.
My pal told me that the eucharist has always been refered to as a mystery of some sort by the church. I'll have to do some reading on the application of the word musterion to the sacrament(s) to see if the tradition is old enough and solid enough for me to refer to sacraments as mysteries. What I don't want is this sacramental language hurting the significance of the mystery that Paul writes about.
Now for the mystery in 1 Cor 15.
I believe that the mystery that is being refered to here is our being changed into an incorruptible body as opposed to the corruptible. When we are raised we will not be the same as we were before. The major difference will be that we will have an incorruptible body that is like Christ's, the last Adam. This was a mystery because it was not revealed prior to God revealing it to Paul (not revealed in the Old Testament or in the Gospels or early Acts). Paul is communicating something new from God in 1 Cor 15. Agree?
There was more than one mystery revealed to Paul as 1 Cor 4:1 shows us.
quote: 1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
I believe that all of these mysteries are related to each other. They all have to do with what God wants to do with this group He wanted to work with before the world began. That is, they all in some way involve the Body of Christ which was God's original plan.
Time to get some Zs.
To make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/30/2001 1:04 PM (GMT -6) |   | Chance, I ENJOY slow pitch!
The major difference will be that we will have an incorruptible body that is like Christ's, the last Adam. This was a mystery because it was not revealed prior to God revealing it to Paul (not revealed in the Old Testament or in the Gospels or early Acts). Paul is communicating something new from God in 1 Cor 15. Agree?
TRANFIGURATION was in the Gospels.
But we appear completely in agreement on what the mystery is!
As to the plural...you are being too literal. I can read that also as a magnification, not just a note from my accountant. (but I'm no expert!)
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 11/30/2001 5:52 PM (GMT -6) |   | Chance.....I want to come back to your post and interact with it more. But it is late.
Until then, here is something that I read and typed on my lunch hour. I wonder whether this might be interesting -- I thought of you because of the underlined portion:
quote: by Nicholas Cabasilas (later 1300s AD), in "The Life in Christ" -- p.94-95)
The Second Book [557-560] § 18. Baptism as a personal experience of God
Many are the remedies which down through the ages have been devised for this sick race; it was Christ's death alone which was able to bring true life and health. For this reason, to be born by this new birth and live the blessed life and be disposed to health and, as far as lies in man, to confess the faith and take on oneself the passion and die the death of Christ is nothing less than to drink of this medicine. This is the poser of the new law, thus it is that a Christian is born. In this way he arrives at admirable wisdom and undertakes the noblest deeds. His faith is unmovable, since he believes without compulsion and governs his conduct by the power of God, and not be laws. Holding fast both faith and virtue he is formed by both into the blessed likeness of Christ. "The kingdom of God," it is said, "does not consist in words but in power" (1 Cor. 4:20), and "the word of the cross is to us who are being saved the power of God" (1 Cor 1:18).
The new law, then, is spiritual because the Spirit works everything. The former law is written because it goes no further than letters and sounds. Therefore the law is "as shadow" (Heb. 10:1) and an image, the present one is reality and truth. The words and letters are like an image in relation to reality. Before they were realized God foreshadowed them on many occasions by the covenant, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers" (Jer. 31:31-32) What does this mean? "This," He says, "is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel and the house of Judah: I will put my laws within their mind and in their hearts I will write them" (Jer 31:33) -- that is, not composing them by mere sound of words, but by the Lawgiver's presence, without intermediary. For he says, "no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest" (Jer. 31:34).[/u Because he had obtained this law David also uttered this blessed saying, "I know that the Lord is great" (Ps. 135:5). He says, "I know," having experienced it himself, not by having heard it taught by others. Wherefore he leads others too to the same experience, saying, "O taste and see that the Lord is gracious" (Ps. 34:9). Even though the blessed man had praised God's graciousness in many and varied words, yet, since the words were not capable of showing the reality, he himself summons his listeners to the experience of the things which he praises.
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
Edited by - potonwheel on 11/30/2001 11:14:14 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  chance Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 157 | Posted 11/30/2001 11:55 PM (GMT -6) |   | POW said
quote: TRANFIGURATION was in the Gospels.
So you believe that the transfiguration of Jesus communicated to His disciples that they would one day be changed from their corruptible body to an incorruptible body that is like Christ's after His resurrection? And that what Paul refers to as a mystery (secret) was not actually a mystery since what he was saying in 1 Cor 15 had already been revealed by God? C'mon POW!
Here is the account of the transfiguration. Tell me where you see the mystery Paul communicates in 1 Cor 15 communicated by Christ in these passages.
quote: Matthew 17:1-8 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" 6 And when the disciples heard [it,] they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. 7 But Jesus came and touched them and said, "Arise, and do not be afraid." 8 When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
Mark 9:2-8 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus. 5 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah" -- 6 because he did not know what to say, for they were greatly afraid. 7 And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!" 8 Suddenly, when they had looked around, they saw no one anymore, but only Jesus with themselves.
Luke 9:28-36 Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe [became] white [and] glistening. 30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him. 33 Then it happened, as they were parting from Him, [that] Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah" -- not knowing what he said. 34 While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!" 36 When the voice had ceased, Jesus was found alone. But they kept quiet, and told no one in those days any of the things they had seen.
I find no trace of the mystery that Paul writes about in 1 Cor 15 in those passages.
you said
quote: As to the plural...you are being too literal. I can read that also as a magnification, not just a note from my accountant. (but I'm no expert!)
There seem to be several interrelated mysteries that Paul writes about in his epistles (for example Rom 11:25; 1 Cor 15:51; Eph 3:6). I have a hard time seeing the plural being used as a magnification since Paul tells us of several mysteries.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/1/2001 4:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | This is fun, Chance. We've been around enough that we can pick on the pickies without fearing that either one (so I think) will go off track. (Despite that I do go off track sometimes.)
Here is my response to the above. (From an artist and not a Sem. student.)
As an artist I promise at least as much "lateral thinking" as I see narrow, overly literal readings. Fair???
Paul in 1 Cor. 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: . . . Chance, I've got a double reason for looking at what Paul writes prior to mystery as what he writes after. First, it fits what I've been saying. (Actually three reasons.) Second it seems to fit what YOU have been saying--seems on topic of mystery as I thought you were saying it. And third, fits with the Transfiguration.
An aside for a minute, but really on topic too. Jesus' walking around for those days after the resurrection are ALSO a kind of revelation of that mystery too. His body was certainly "changed." I rest my case; or at least that part of it. Jury?
Chance, you wrote: "I find no trace of the mystery that Paul writes about in 1 Cor 15 in those passages." Are you being too rutted in narrow, overly literal reading?
29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe [became] white [and] glistening.
The position of Paul's 1 Cor 15 that I set aside for a second says "changed." I DO SEE THAT ABOVE. ("30-Love." No way near the line. )
Then comes the last part: "35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!" 36 When the voice had ceased, Jesus was found alone. But they kept quiet, and told no one in those days any of the things they had seen."
Here is Mark. I'm not going to try and prooftext. That is not the reason I'm going to Mark. Luke is fine too.
Mark 9: 1 And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." 2 After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus. 5 Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." 6 (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.) 7 Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!" 8 Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus. 9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what "rising from the dead" meant. 11 And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" 12 Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected? 13 But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."
. . . . . . . . . .
He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." 32 But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it.
The disciples witnessed: "a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." The disciples needed what they were given. They were going to loose Jesus to the Crucifixion. They would forget what they saw (one of only five times in the NT where all three of the Trinity are revealed together) and run. It WAS revealed. The mystery I mean. the fact that they forgot it does not lessen that it was revealed!
I REALLY don't like the binary revealed/not-revealed, mystery/not-mystery reading. I much more like the "shaddow"/"fulness" model.
As to what I'd remarked about "magnification" in referring to the plural on mysterIES. (I did so off hand.) I meant of course the sense used in: "magnify the lord with me." Praise. I would have to think that Paul;s readers themselves were going to recall more than one mystery (Facetiously...do you believe that they had Rom 11:25; 1 Cor 15:51; and Eph 3:6 all in front of them when they read 1 Cor 12? I'm a teacher. I don't test on what I don't cover! Just being half funny; but more than half serious, too.) "Mystery" -- but I'm only speaking English -- seems like "wonderment." I could talk of "wondermentS"; but only if I really what the listener to stop and differentiate. Of course I prove nothing about the text. Just how I read it...which is all I claimed.
In the most specific manner, yes, Romans 1:25 has definite differences with 1 Cor 15. But can we see the underlying unity too?
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
The Incarnation is the core of the gospel. That is why some of us non-Dispensational folk feel a twinge to wonder whether Dispensationalist have more than one Gospel--one for each D.--if the differences are accented too much. (Just telling all about how it appeared to me when Bob, Abbie and 1way came on the board.)
1 Cor 15:51 says:
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--"
Same thing.
And Eph 3:6 says:
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
That fits with the literalism of the Dispensational reading of a chopped up New Testament. It furnishes fuel for that engine. your reading makes it seem like this was an entirely new revelation. But you, YOU, Chance, also say correctly that the Decalog and Israel are not the initial plan. I might say it as that they were, and are, and never were central to the whole thing. Christ, the one faith, the one baptism IS.
Read: "This mystery is . . . heirs together . . . members together of one body . . . in Christ Jesus. The focus is on Christ. The overcoming of barriers fits within that. No I'm not suggesting that that is secondary. Not removed. it is integral.
Did I cover it all????
Thanks. Fun.
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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 |  chance Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 157 | Posted 12/2/2001 10:49 PM (GMT -6) |   | POW said
quote: Here is my response to the above. (From an artist and not a Sem. student.)
As an artist I promise at least as much "lateral thinking" as I see narrow, overly literal readings. Fair???
Were those who penned these passages artists who expected their writings to be interpreted with such lateral thinking? I think that needs to be addressed before you give your interpretation of any passage.
quote: An aside for a minute, but really on topic too. Jesus' walking around for those days after the resurrection are ALSO a kind of revelation of that mystery too. His body was certainly "changed." I rest my case; or at least that part of it. Jury?
Paul disagrees. He tells us that he is telling us of a mystery. A mystery is a mystery because it is a secret that is known by God and has not been revealed to anyone (for example Rom 16:25; Eph 3:8-9; Col 1:26).
Also, there is no evidence from the gospel accounts or what was recorded in early Acts of Christ's life after He rose that indicate that the mystery that Paul writes of in 1 Cor 15 was revealed previous to it being revealed to Paul.
you said
quote: Chance, you wrote: "I find no trace of the mystery that Paul writes about in 1 Cor 15 in those passages." Are you being too rutted in narrow, overly literal reading?
After comparing 1 Cor 15 with the Transfiguration accounts I have to conclude that I am not. You seem to desperately want the mystery that was revealed to Paul to have been revealed to others before it was revealed to him. Why? Doing so would make Paul a liar. It would not be true that he was telling the Corinthians a mystery because it would have already been revealed by God.
you continue
quote: 29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe [became] white [and] glistening.
The position of Paul's 1 Cor 15 that I set aside for a second says "changed." I DO SEE THAT ABOVE. ("30-Love." No way near the line. )
OK. Christ appeared different on the mount of Transfiguration. His appearance was changed. How are Peter, James and John supposed to get the following out of that?
quote: 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed -- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Were Peter, James and John supposed to have understood what Paul writes in 1 Cor 15:51-52 from Jesus' experience? I do not believe that that was God's intention at all.
you said
quote: The disciples witnessed: "a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." The disciples needed what they were given. They were going to loose Jesus to the Crucifixion. They would forget what they saw (one of only five times in the NT where all three of the Trinity are revealed together) and run. It WAS revealed. The mystery I mean. the fact that they forgot it does not lessen that it was revealed!
No, there is no evidence they forgot what they saw and no, the mystery that Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 15 was not revealed. Had the mystery been revealed then what Paul communicated in 1 Cor 15 could not rightly be refered to as a mystery. This would be true even if Peter, James and John had forgotten the Transfiguration experience (which there is no evidence that they did) that you allege is when God first revealed the mystery.
you said
quote: I REALLY don't like the binary revealed/not-revealed, mystery/not-mystery reading. I much more like the "shaddow"/"fulness" model.
The law of noncontradiction is what the mystery/prophecy distinction is based upon. If I were to say that A is -A then I would be speaking nonsense. Likewise, if I were to say that something that was prophesied (or foretold as in Acts 3:19-26) was also a mystery (or secret as in Eph 3:8-9), I would be speaking nonsense. Does that make sense? To say that something was revealed in the past and that it was also not revealed would be a contradiction or nonsense and I reject nonsense.
you said
quote: As to what I'd remarked about "magnification" in referring to the plural on mysterIES. (I did so off hand.) I meant of course the sense used in: "magnify the lord with me." Praise.
I don't get your point. Could you clarify?
quote: I would have to think that Paul;s readers themselves were going to recall more than one mystery (Facetiously...do you believe that they had Rom 11:25; 1 Cor 15:51; and Eph 3:6 all in front of them when they read 1 Cor 12? I'm a teacher. I don't test on what I don't cover! Just being half funny; but more than half serious, too.)
The statement that Paul made in 1 Cor 4:1 about himself being a steward of the mysteries of God was in no way dependent upon the Corinthians knowledge of those mysteries. What was important was not that the mysteries were written down in an epistle but that Paul knew of those mysteries and was a faithful steward of them.
you said
quote: "Mystery" -- but I'm only speaking English -- seems like "wonderment." I could talk of "wondermentS"; but only if I really what the listener to stop and differentiate. Of course I prove nothing about the text. Just how I read it...which is all I claimed.
The meaning of the word musterion in the passages we are discussing is nothing like "wonderment". The context doesn't allow for it.
I am going into work early so I have to go to bed now. I will respond to the rest of your post tonight.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 12/03/2001 09:06:25 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/3/2001 1:41 AM (GMT -6) |   | Chance,
A lot of Air moving. But no crack of the bat yet.
Keep your eye on the ball. You are watching the bat too much.
PoW | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/3/2001 11:35 AM (GMT -6) |   | Chance:
My kids are waiting outside for some after school sports -- so I only have a minute. I'll read your post carefully when I get back here. But for now this is just a response to what I REMEMBER being in your last post. OK?
You seemed to be saying that you were unsatisfied that my other post did not make a tight, literal connection (rather than in idea) between the "Behold I tell you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. At the last trumpet." (I hear Handel's Messiah in my head!) and whatever I was going to offer as being revelation of the same PRE-DATING Paul in Acts 9.
"Have we got a show for you!" And it is another Handel's Messiah song too!
Actually, as far as "pre-dating" goes, its a Maxi. Besides the poem in Genesis about the rainbow it may be from the oldest book of ANY of the Bible. Know what that is?
Job 19: 25-26 "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God..."
I really don't know how anything could be as literally to the point as THAT.
Gotta run.
PoW
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 12/3/2001 12:53 PM (GMT -6) |   | Chance, I'm going to read what you wrote offline, and compose before returning. Then I'll post for you.
I see that you made a bunch of revisions to your post. I'll read carefully. I wonder whether what you wrote/changed anything as per my last post, however...
Is/was your point the mystery of the transfigured saints (1 Cor 15), or the mystery of the trans-ethnic boundaries?
I end up thinking that Dispensationalism just doesn't matter at all. The non-linear model I mentioned -- emerging (or however I worded it) fits scripture and the history of salvation better. But I'll certainly read what you put that work into.
Later.
PoW
PotOnWheel
(ISA 64:8 "Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.")
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