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n/a
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218

Posted 12/16/2002 7:44 AM (GMT -6)

Ah, so many objections to christianity, so little time. I know that these objections I will be posting in a minute have been answered before, but I would ask anyone who wouldn't mind doing the legwork to either redirect me to various posts answering these objections, or too post their own thoughts. Any help answering some, or all of these objections, would be greatly appreciated:

I believe that there are three avenues that can be taken to diffuse not only the fundamentalist Christian, but all other literal interpretations of god, those being:
1. Logic
2. History / Science
3. Psychology
As I have yet to witness a debate on this topic that has encompassed all three of these arguments, I’d like to host one, though it’s possibly the most inappropriate venue, on this message board. The basic outline of my argument is as follows:

I. LOGIC
Biblical fallacies and contradictions, the biblical definition of God is in direct conflict with the actions of God.

II. HISTORY / SCIENCE
Tracing the origins of Christianity back to ancient pagan mythology, showing the evolution of the Christ myth (i.e. virgin birth, miracles, crucifixion, death and resurrection) from early sun god myths.

III. PSYCHOLOGY
Explaining why humans through out history have created deities and religions and the purposes that these deities and religions sever to both the individual and the society.

I. LOGIC
Biblical fallacies and contradictions, the biblical definition of God is in direct conflict with the actions of God.

By biblical definition, God is PERFECT, ALMIGHTY and ALL KNOWING. If the bible is historically true, then this definition must be false...but then if this definition is false then the bible (which provides us with this definition) is also false...there in lies the paradox. Here are a very few brief examples (I can elaborate in great length and detail should anyone so desire):

1. God gave humans "free will". If humans posses free will then god cannot control or predict their actions. By giving humans free will, no matter what the reason, God has forfeited his status as Almighty and All knowing.
2. Through out biblical texts God continually tests people. An all knowing being would never test because he would already know the answer. It is very clear that when God tests people he has not already predicted the out come because he is always either pleased or angered by the results of his test, and subsequently offers either a reward or punishment based on those results to the parties involved in the test.
3. Angels (part 1). According to the bible God created angels to assist him in performing his functions. If god needs assistance then he is not ALMIGHTY, he may be VERY MIGHTY, but not “ALMIGHTY”.
4. Angels (part 2). Unlike humans, God did not create angels with “free will” so it would be impossible for an Angel to dissent from “Gods will”. This either nullifies the idea of “Satan” the fallen angel who “led a revolt” against god in heaven (which means that Satan was not the only angel to dissent), or the concepts of god being PERFECT, ALMIGHTY and ALL KNOWING…in that if these angels possessed the ability to dissent, then they were flawed in their creation therefore God is not PERFECT, God did not predict the “revolt” therefore god is not ALL KNOWING, and since God unable to rectify this flaw in their construction God cannot be ALMIGHTY.
5. Evil. God created everything. If evil exist then god created evil. God is in constant conflict with evil, he hates it but cannot destroy it therefore god is neither ALMIGHTY nor PERFECT.

I realize that this is rather long, so any of you who have some spare time, feel free to dig in and stop this disparagement once-and-for- all.

Blessings, y'all!
Paul

"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man."
-John F. Haught

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/16/2002 8:04 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
predict

Interesting word: "predict." Pre-Dict; as in dictate. And active verb involving action. (I know this is in English--but the only other language I know is German.) But, here's the point. For God to literally "pre-dict" something god has to be IN time.

I agree that God does not control all of our actions -- by his law. He cannot force us to love him. But that does not mean that he "does not pre-dict" -- as literal 'pre-diction' is nonsensical with respect to God.

One can not do a non-nonsensical thing. So its foolishness.

Edited by - fred on 12/16/2002 1:07:24 PM

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 12/16/2002 11:04 AM (GMT -6)

Man exists. Therefore God exists.

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/16/2002 4:30 PM (GMT -6)

Paul, its hard to know where to begin with this. Here's the children's readers digest version of a response (since I don't have time to REALLY dig into this).

1. God gave humans "free will". If humans posses free will then god cannot control or predict their actions. By giving humans free will, no matter what the reason, God has forfeited his status as Almighty and All knowing.

Doc:a) BECAUSE God is almighty he can choose to create agents who have power to act, even against his wishes, IF HE CHOOSES To.
b) How does creating free agents qualify God's omniscience. It qualifies WHAT God knows, not THAT he knows.

2. Through out biblical texts God continually tests people. An all knowing being would never test because he would already know the answer.

Doc: He tests people to know whether they'll follow him or not. If we are free, this is the kind of thing that doesn't exist to be known until it is resolved. Its no detraction from God's omniscience not to know what agents will freely choose to do.

3. Angels (part 1). According to the bible God created angels to assist him in performing his functions. If god needs assistance then he is not ALMIGHTY, he may be VERY MIGHTY, but not “ALMIGHTY”.

Doc: Perhaps if God NEEDED assistance. But if God simply WANTS assistance, its hardly a detraction of his omnipotence that he can choose to create agents who can give it.

4. Angels (part 2). Unlike humans, God did not create angels with “free will” so it would be impossible for an Angel to dissent from “Gods will”.

Doc: How do you know THIS? The fact that some angels DID "dissent" proves they were free TO dissent.

if these angels possessed the ability to dissent, then they were flawed in their creation therefore God is not PERFECT, God did not predict the “revolt” therefore god is not ALL KNOWING, and since God unable to rectify this flaw in their construction God cannot be ALMIGHTY.

Doc: How is freedom to dissent a "flaw"? Its what it MEANS to be free. And if they are free, its not a flaw of God's omniscience not to know with certain they WOULD dissent.

5. Evil. God created everything. If evil exist then god created evil. God is in constant conflict with evil, he hates it but cannot destroy it therefore god is neither ALMIGHTY nor PERFECT.

Doc: If God creates free agents he creates the POSSIBILITY of evil (choosing against his good desires) but not the actuality of it. If he gives freedom, this requires TOLERATING their evil choices (for revoking the choice is to deny that they are free). So God has to war against evil agents with wisdom, not sheer omnipotence. But this is no detraction to his omnipotence, since HE is the one who made them free in the first place.

All this is covered in MUCH greater depth in my Satan and the Problem of Evil.

For what its worth,
Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 12/16/2002 4:45 PM (GMT -6)

Hey Doc, this is Paul.

I own Satan and the Problem of Evil, and am half-way through it. The problem is, these aren't my objections, but some girl from another message boards. I feel this place (Christus Victor Message Board) to be my place of theological comfort and shelter when the storms of atheism and agnosticism rain down upon my beliefs. I know their are objections to these peoples beliefs, but I have trouble answering them myself, this is where you come in. I have always respected your work and your passion for the lord, you are one of the reasons that I got into theology, and one of the reasons that I strive to know more of the word and the philosophies of the world. I appreciate your time and willingness to answer these questions...Praise Jesus! I hope you have a good week, thanks for all of the things you have indirectly (through Christ) done for me in my walk.

Agape,
Paul

Memories...

"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man."
-John F. Haught

Edited by - A_Theist on 12/16/2002 9:51:57 PM

SeanG
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278

Posted 12/19/2002 8:03 PM (GMT -6)

Ahhh yes, the same old arguments - supped up! Too many evidences, too little time.

Based on Sufficient Reason

P1) A contingent being exists.

P2) Therefore, this contingent being (2) is caused by another, i.e., depends on something else for its existence.

P3) That which causes (provides the sufficient reason for) the existence of any contingent being must be either (3) another contingent being, or (4) a non-contingent being (necessary) being.
c. If 3, then this contingent cause must itself be caused by another, and so onto infinity.

P4) Therefore, that which causes (provides the sufficient reason for) the existence of any contingent being must be either (5) an infinite series of contingent beings, or (4) a necessary being.

P5) An infinite series of contingent beings (5) is incapable of yielding a sufficient reason for the existence of any being.

P6) Therefore, a necessary being (4) exists!

Based on the Principle of Existential Causality

1. Some limited, changing being exist.
2. The present existence of every limited, changing being is caused by another.
3. There cannot be an infinite regress of causes of being.
4. Therefore, there is a first Cause of the present existence of these beings.
5. This first Cause must be infinite, necessary, eternal, simple, unchangeable and one.
6. This first uncaused Cause is identical with the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition

A mix of both

1. Something exists (e.g., I do);
2. I am a contingent being;
3. Nothing cannot cause something;
4. Only a Necessary Being can cause a contingent being;
5. Therefore, I am caused to exist by a Necessary Being;
6. But I am personal, rational, and moral kind of being (since I engage in these kinds of activities);
7. Therefore this Necessary Being must be a personal, rational, and moral kind of being, since I am similar to him by the Principle of Analogy;
8. But a Necessary Being cannot be contingent (i.e., not necessary) in its being which would be a contradiction;
9. Therefore, this Necessary Being is personal, rational, and moral in a necessary way, not in a contingent way;
10. This Necessary Being is also eternal, uncaused, unchanging, unlimited, and one, since a Necessary Being cannot come to be, be caused by another, undergo change, be limited by any possibility of what it could be (a Necessary Being has no possibility to be other than it is), or to be more than one Being (since there cannot be two infinite beings);
11. Therefore, one necessary, eternal, uncaused, unlimited (=infinite), rational, personal, and moral being exists;
12. Such a Being is appropriately called “God” in the theistic sense, because he possesses all the essential characteristics of a theistic God;
13. Therefore, the theistic God exists.

SeanG!
"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen." ~ An adaptation of Hebrews 11:1

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/20/2002 6:13 AM (GMT -6)

A variation

1. Something can't come from NOTHING

2. If ANYTHING exists (and apparently it does) then SOMETHING must have ALWAYS existed.

3. The second law thermodynamics suggests that matter isn't a good candidate for the "something" that has always existed

Ergo: Something "spiritual" (viz. is not constrained by the laws of physics) must be the cause of the physical universe.

(There is, of course, a huge leap from a non-material something to "God," but its moving in the right direction.

Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

StrongInHisGrace
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 5

Posted 12/20/2002 4:17 PM (GMT -6)

PROPOSAL
1. God gave humans "free will". If humans posses free will then god cannot control or predict their actions. By giving humans free will, no matter what the reason, God has forfeited his status as Almighty and All knowing.

ANSWER:
God gave man sovereignty in his will. But the sovereignty of the will of man to choose does not negate the plan of God. The sovereign will of man ends at death at which time man is responsible for the choices he has made. At death the power of your imagination and the power of your signature and the power of your forte, aspirations and principles all die with you. Only the power of God remains.

Also, God has set the world in the heart of man that he cannot know God outside of His direct involvement.

Also, just because God gave man free will does not mean that he is not in control through his signature. We see this in the animal world. Each animal carries out the signature that God has given to it. A bird sings and a dog barks. A bird flies because it is in the signature of the bird to fly, but how long they want to fly is determined by them. A dog barks because God gave the dog that power of expression, but the dog chooses to bark either in anger or in play. Even so, man has the power of the imagination. He can imagine anything he wants to because this is in the power of the signature of man. But God has restricted him in how he will play this out. Each human being functions according to their limitations, but they choose how. God does not judge us according to our signature but according to faith in Christ.

"If you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sins." This is the plan of God. Because God is all knowing, having seen the end from the beginning (as a movie director).

God is in control of His plan, knowing the end from the beginning, having already seen the plan played out He already knows the outcome. He could not forfeit who He is (Almighty and all knowing) any more than you can forfeit who you are. He is the essence of His very being and encompasses all that He is.

Strong In His Grace,
Maria

StrongInHisGrace
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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 5

Posted 12/20/2002 4:21 PM (GMT -6)

2. PROPOSAL:
Though out biblical texts God continually tests people. An all knowing being would never test because he would already know the answer. It is very clear that when God tests people he has not already predicted the out come because he is always either pleased or angered by the results of his test, and subsequently offers either a reward or punishment based on those results to the parties involved in the test.

ANSWER:
The test is not for Him, but for us, an exercise in faith, a testing of the will to teach us obedience, and we are rewarded according to our choices. Faith pleases God because this is His plan. Man is being prepared for the next position of the inheritance. God has something bigger in mind than merely testing the hearts of man for pleasure or punishment. There is training going on, the chastening of the Lord. Jesus set the pattern of faith for us. "He learned obedience through the things He suffered." People may think that the plan is senseless, but then again, they don't have the blueprints of truth and cannot see beyond themselves. Because of false knowledge, they are centering the plan of God upon their own experience and lack of understanding.

3. PROPOSAL:
Angels (part 1). According to the bible God created angels to assist him in performing his functions. If god needs assistance then he is not ALMIGHTY, he may be VERY MIGHTY, but not “ALMIGHTY”.

ANSWER:
"He makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire. These carry out His will just as a servant would serve the master. God CAN perform these duties Himself, but as any wise steward, God delegates authority and task. His princes, His archangels, His orders, His thrones, His dominions, these carry out His word.

4. PROPOSAL:
Angels (part 2). Unlike humans, God did not create angels with “free will” so it would be impossible for an Angel to dissent from “Gods will”. This either nullifies the idea of “Satan” the fallen angel who “led a revolt” against god in heaven (which means that Satan was not the only angel to dissent), or the concepts of god being PERFECT, ALMIGHTY and ALL KNOWING…in that if these angels possessed the ability to dissent, then they were flawed in their creation therefore God is not PERFECT, God did not predict the “revolt” therefore god is not ALL KNOWING, and since God unable to rectify this flaw in their construction God cannot be ALMIGHTY.

ANSWER:
Angels do have free will. Satan did choose the path of his own destiny, but God did not make a covenant with them for their redemption. Therefore their choices are unredeemable. The creation is not 'flawed' but limited. God Himself is not limited, but He can create anything with limitations. Angels are not autocrat, God is autocrat. Angels are not immaculate, God is immaculate. Angels are not unbegotten, God is unbegotten. Angels came forth from God with a design in mind. Just because fish can't fly does not mean that they are imperfect, but limited by function. Angels are limited by function and God gave them free will as part of their design.

Strong In His Grace,
Maria

Edited by - StrongInHisGrace on 12/20/2002 9:27:18 PM

StrongInHisGrace
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 5

Posted 12/20/2002 4:23 PM (GMT -6)

5. PROPOSAL
Evil. God created everything. If evil exist then god created evil. God is in constant conflict with evil, he hates it but cannot destroy it therefore god is neither ALMIGHTY nor PERFECT.

ANSWER:
Yes. God created good and evil. The evil was created when God put distinction. Without law there is no sin. God set certain terms upon angels and certain terms upon man because he is autocrat, all superior. God is all truth, God is the truth of the system. And because He is the truth of the system He set the terms and boundaries of the system. He set the boundaries. Evil is the choice to move outside of the boundaries that God has set. That is a law. God created the environment for evil to be expressed. Once God made known to Satan that He was going to create another world, and Satan despised God's choice, then Satan sinned by trying to reverse God's choice. People do the same things today. Where there is no law, there is no sin. God is the law.

God created evil, but does not mean that God is evil in His own mind.
God created darkness, but that does not mean that God's soul is darkened.

I would respond to people who embrace the false knowledge, "Your whole theology of the contradiction of God is made not knowing the plan of God. How can eternity become time? How can Eternal Life (Jesus Christ) become death? How can light part the darkness without being consumed by the darkness? By the laws that God set."

Strong In His Grace,
Maria

Edited by - StrongInHisGrace on 12/20/2002 9:28:29 PM

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/20/2002 6:54 PM (GMT -6)

GREAT having you on line StrongInHisGrace. Here's a few quick responses to your post.

Stonginhisgrace: God is in control of His plan, knowing the end from the beginning, having already seen the plan played out He already knows the outcome.

Doc: Yet Scripture depicts God as speaking and thinking and planning about the future in terms of what MAY or MAY not happen (see God of the Possible). He can anticipate every POSSIBLE outcome as perfectly as we anticipate a CERTAIN outcome, for his intelligence is infinite.

Stonginhisgrace: The test is not for Him, but for us, an exercise in faith, a testing of the will to teach us obedience, and we are rewarded according to our choices.

Doc: A nice interpretation, except for the fact that every verse that speaks of God testing people says it was for HIM "to know" what humans would do. For example, when Abraham successfully passed God’s test by being willing to offer up his son Isaac, the Lord declared, "Now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son…" (Gen. 22:12).
Similarly, the Bible says that God tested Hezekiah "to know what was in his heart" (2 Chron. 32:31). Moses tells the Israelites that the Lord kept them in the desert forty years "in order to humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commandments" (Deut. 8:2). Elsewhere he told the Israelites that the Lord allowed false prophets to be correct sometimes because he "is testing you, to know whether you indeed love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul"(Deut. 13:1–3).

In another instance the Lord withheld assistance to Israel in battle "in order to test Israel, whether or not they would take care to walk in the way of the Lord as their ancestors did" (Judges 2:22). He left Israel’s opponents alone, Scripture says, "for the testing of Israel, to know whether Israel would obey the commandments of the Lord" (Judges 3:4). And, finally, the Lord commanded the Israelites to only gather enough bread from heaven for one day while they walked in the wilderness in order "to test them whether they will follow my instruction or not " (Exod. 16:4).

Stonginhisgrace: God created good and evil….Evil is the choice to move outside of the boundaries that God has set.

Doc: If evil is OUR choice, why accuse GOD of creating it? He created US free, and thereby created the POSSIBILITY of evil. But WE create evil by moving "outside the boundaries that God has set."

Blessings
Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 12/20/2002 10:59 PM (GMT -6)

There is a reviewer named James Scott on amazon.com who I brought to the boards attention in the past. He is notorious for giving any book that deals with open theism a very very poor review, although I am 99.9% certain he hasn't read a single one of the books. I came across a book by Harshorne entitled, "Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes" a couple days ago, and I noticed that this was another book he gave a negative review of. The thing that interested me about his review was this:

"If you want to discover the primary source of the aberrant movement in Evangelical Theology today called "Open Theism"
"Free-will Theism" or "Presentism[*Presentism?]", this is the book to compare with what Clark Pinnock,John Sanders and Greg Boyd have written to make their 'case'.

'God at Risk';'Searching for an Adequate God';'God at War';
'Trinity and Process:Critical Evaluation of Hartshorne's Di-Polar Theism Toward a Trinitarian Metaphysics','God of the Possible';'Satan & Problem of Evil' for instances.

Hartshorne, especially in this volume, caused these once[*sorrry Doc, but you are no longer an evangelical :-(] evangelical scholars to question,challenge,then revise many of the Attributes of God Biblically explained by the Classical Theologians for millennia. Their sincerity does not lessen how sincerely wrong their Biblical understanding,exegesis,interpret-
ive techniques,conclusions are. Very enlightening to see the strong connection between PROCESS and OPENNESS. Undeniable."

*remarks added

Anywho, I was wondering if you had read this book--I would rather ask you than assume you had--and if it is a good read?

Agape,
Paul

"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man."
-John F. Haught

SeanG
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278

Posted 12/21/2002 12:15 AM (GMT -6)

“?”… “A bird flies because it is in the signature of the bird to fly, but how long they want to fly is determined by them.” Unless you are a bird on a migration that flies towards its destiny until it has to stop… not because it wants to, but because it has to!?!

You guys lost me, but that’s okay, as long as StrongInHisGrace is here (I scratch my head and wonder, who in the heck is that?). You know, the best I have heard it is from the “Bible Answer Man,” he gives an analogy that I think applies here, although, I’m not sure. Lets say Bob and Jay have lunch at the same time. So one says to the other [as they drive along], “So, Bob, where do you want to go and have lunch?” “I don’t know Jay, lets just turn left at the next street.” So after turning left, Bob says, “Turn right here!” After this Jay says “I’ll make this next left and right and whatever place we first come upon we’ll stop at and eat.”

(Is this even on topic?) Even though Bob and Jay chose by their free will where they are going to eat, God knew beforehand where they were going to end up. This is a great middle ground for the faiths to intersect.

I know, I know… I’m babbling again.

SeanG!

"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen."

a_theist
"Thy will be done."

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286

Posted 12/21/2002 5:52 PM (GMT -6)

I know, I know… I’m babbling again.

ummm...yeah.

"The Creator's power (by which I mean the capacity to influence the world) is made manifest paradoxically in the vulnerable defenselessness of crucified man."
-John F. Haught

StrongInHisGrace
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 5

Posted 12/22/2002 3:35 AM (GMT -6)

Doc: A nice interpretation, except for the fact that every verse that speaks of God testing people says it was for HIM "to know" what humans would do. For example, when Abraham successfully passed God’s test by being willing to offer up his son Isaac, the Lord declared, "Now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son…" (Gen. 22:12).
Similarly, the Bible says that God tested Hezekiah "to know what was in his heart" (2 Chron. 32:31). Moses tells the Israelites that the Lord kept them in the desert forty years "in order to humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commandments" (Deut. 8:2). Elsewhere he told the Israelites that the Lord allowed false prophets to be correct sometimes because he "is testing you, to know whether you indeed love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul"(Deut. 13:1–3).

My Response:
Good notes. We see that God set faith within the boundaries of a covenant which was governed by the laws of that covenant. God set restrictions upon our contact with Him to see if we would love Him by staying within these boundaries or using our imagination to invent our own boundaries and laws concerning our contact with God.

The exercise of faith is for us to show our love for God and to benefit from our contact with Him, and it is also for God, to see if we would keep faith according to His good peasure or find a way to express faith that would benefit our vain imaginations.

This is why Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandment." We are not free to love God our own way or to seek God our own way.

Deut.10:12, "And now Israel, what does the Lord your God REQUIRE of you, but to FEAR the Lord your God. To WALK in all His ways. And the LOVE Him, And to SERVE Him with all your heart and all your soul. To KEEP the commandments of the Lord."

We also read in Deut.32:4,7, "For it is not a VAIN thing for you; because IT IS YOUR LIFE."

When man began to center the worship of God on himself and his needs then worshop became vain. Here is an interesting article about how psychology entered into faith:

http://www.howtohaveperfectfaith.com/False_Gospel_of_WWJD.html

Strong In His Grace,
Maria

SeanG
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278

Posted 12/22/2002 7:09 AM (GMT -6)

I believe that secular psychology is very bad to the embitterment of the soul. All one has to do is to read Paul C. Vitz book, Psychology as Religion: The Cult of Self-Worship. However, Christian counselors who use God’s principles in ministering to the soul are what brought my wife and I back together after three-and-a-half years of separation. The article that you posted, StronInHisGrace, was somewhat interesting. However, combining televangelism and the WWJD wristbands that are reminders of, again, God’s principles, for the many teenagers out there, is a stretch.

Much love,

SeanG!

"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen."

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 12/23/2002 8:32 PM (GMT -6)

Omnipotence and Other Theological Mistakes is a very good, readable, critique of classical theism. Of course , he writes from a Process perspective, so take that into account. But his critiques are insightful.

John Scott's reviews on Amazon.com are amusing, for they are never reviews. They get pretty repetitious, however, for he says pretty much the exact same thing for every "Open Theism" book.

Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

StrongInHisGrace
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 5

Posted 12/24/2002 2:23 AM (GMT -6)

However, combining televangelism and the WWJD wristbands that are reminders of, again, God’s principles, for the many teenagers out there, is a stretch.

Sean:
The principle of God IS Jesus Christ. Satan has sown the tares in the Church (the false religious systems) and took the principle of God out of Jesus Christ and placed it in precept and line. Now we are left with an carnal imitation of Jesus of the flesh and not the real virtues of Christ. The tares LOOK like the wheat because they seek to memorialize Christ in order to feel something of Him that will improve their life. This is like trying to bite into plastic fruit instead of the real thing.

We cannot partake of Christ through a reenactment of His lifestyle through the application of precept and line to our daily lives. Our lives may be improved, we may make better decisions, but salvation is not about making life improving decisions, salvation is about partaking of the life of Christ Himself and taking on His virtues through regeneration. When the virute is Christ, the substance is Christ, and the fruit is Christ. God only identifies salvation as these things that His Son creates in us through the Spirit, not the application of precept and line to our lives.

Any way that teens can be persuaded to make better decisions is a good thing. But let's not confuse that with salvation. I thank God that you and your wife have been helped through the application of better choices upon reflection of a greater principle than our own. But again, this is not salvation. Remission of sins, regeneration, the renewing of the mind, taking on the divine nature through the virtues of Christ, these are the fruits of His redemption. We take on His substance when we partake of His light, not precept and line.

Strong In His Grace,
Maria

SeanG
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 278

Posted 12/24/2002 7:52 PM (GMT -6)

I truly believe you are adding “stuff” to the WWJD theme. The WWJD wristbands or lifestyle has nothing to do with salvation? Of course the cross around my neck doesn’t save me, nor the fact that the original cross was made out of wood, or even if I hung on a cross myself. The cross around my neck reminds me of the deeper principles that Christ already accomplished. Now, if these kids – who are already saved – are tempted with dropping L in their eye by a friend, and that kid has to physically look at the WWJD wristband, and think literally about WJWD, then so be it. The Holy Spirit could have quickened this in his heart. Like you said, “Any way that teens can be persuaded to make better decisions is a good thing.” However, I do not know, nor have I met anyone that truly believes that salvation comes by following the lifestyle of Jesus rather that what Jesus has already accomplished? The Bible does call us to live a holy life, and the best example of that would be the man who accomplished that feat.

SeanG!

"Evolution is the substance of fossils hoped for, the evidence of links not seen."

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