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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 2/26/2003 11:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | This may be a stupid question but is it really free will if one choice is against God's will and the other isn't? I mean, as a Christian, you have two choices, but one of those choices is a sin and one is not, so naturally the only one that makes sense to choose is the one that is not a sin - which is to do God's will. So really, a Christian isn't choosing something that he wants, he's choosing something that God wants, so that the Christian can avoid sinning. But, that's not always what the person wants. He's just doing it to avoid sinning, right? A man may want to have an affair, but to avoid sinning, he won't, but that's not really what he wants, so it's not really free will...is it? Maybe I'm just confused about this. What does everyone else think?
I guess that the only way for a person to choose to do God's will and have it be the person's free will is if that person truly wants what God wants, and not just to avoid sinning. Like on that other thread about the angel approaching Mary about Jesus' impending birth. I think God already knew her heart and that she would say yes, because to give birth to Israel's Messiah was what she and probably most Israelite women wanted. But, God asked her anyway, because He's a gentlemen. But would it have been a sin if she had said, "No, I don't want this burden."?
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 2/26/2003 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm not sure I understand you. You seem to be saying that we don't really have free will because God's will "obviously" makes the most sense, so why would anyone choose against it. But people DO choose against it. Every day. All of us. That's free will.
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 2/26/2003 11:50 AM (GMT -6) | | BJS,
That's why I wondered if this was a stupid question. But, just because something makes sense to do, it isn't always what a person wants to do, like my example of the Christian husband who truly wants to commit adultery but knows that if he does he'll be sinning. Here, to do the right thing is not really what the guy wants. So yes he's using his free will to do the right thing, but the right thing is against his will which is to have the affair, so he's not really free to do what his will truly wants.
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them.
-Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 2/26/2003 12:00 PM (GMT -6) | | But he IS free to commit adultery. That's why people commit adultery all the time. We all have the free will to either follow his will or not.
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
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Alan Rhoda
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 2/26/2003 2:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress: ... you have two choices, but one of those choices is a sin and one is not, so naturally the only one that makes sense to choose is the one that is not a sin--which is to do God's will.
Alan: I agree that choosing to sin is never a sensible choice, all things considered. But sin can seem to be reasonable if lose sight of the big picture and just focus on the moment.
Tigress: So really, a Christian isn't choosing something that he wants, he's choosing something that God wants, so that the Christian can avoid sinning.
Alan: Why the dichotomy between someone's choosing what they want and choosing what God wants? Can't someone want to do what God wants?
Tigress: But, that's not always what the person wants. He's just doing it to avoid sinning, right? A man may want to have an affair, but to avoid sinning, he won't, but that's not really what he wants, so it's not really free will...is it?
Alan: I would say that the man may be tempted by adultery and in that sense want to sin, but he doesn't because there is something else he wants more--avoiding God's displeasure, avoiding the risks of getting caught, etc. Anyway, I don't think there's any problem for free will. It seems to me that the problem vanishes once we recognize that a person can want something on one level and not want it one another (cf. Paul in Romans 7). It's like there's a split within the self--one side wanting to please God, the other wanting to sin--just like the proverbial angel and demon sitting on the shoulder.
Does that help?
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635
| Posted 2/26/2003 4:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
I believe this is a good enough definition of the will, for you to determine if it is free or not, in any scenario.
I can determine either to do or to restrain from an action; this is the exercise of deciding from among options; of what I will embrace or pursue. My will is always directly influenced by my judgment. My reasoning compares the different options, which operate as motives; my understanding determines which is preferable, and my will pursues that which I choose to embrace. In other words, I reason with respect to the value or importance among things; then I judge which is preferred; my will takes action for the most valuable. These are the different operations of the mind, soul, or intellectual part of my being. Great disputes exist in respect to the freedom of the will. Will is quite a different thing from desire; will is the power to carry the purpose into effect; the will should not be faulted for poor judgement.
God is Love,
Tim
1Jo 2:16…the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father… | | Back to Top | | |
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Newcomb
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 3/2/2003 6:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
Just taking your offer posted on the OV board to join, but you are confusing a few things. In one sense we can define many choices as being things either God wants or what Satan wants, as Tim states, this does not exclude me wanting one thing or the other.
In a sin/no sin choice, there is always desire to do something that some other entiy also wants you to do. A free choice does not imply no other being has plans or choices.
When we discuss what we, as a family, are going to do today, we have five wills involved and hundreds of choices to make. Generally we all want to go to church, but then the subject becomes which service, etc. Let's reduce it to my wife and I determining if we are going to Sunday School or the church service for simplicity. If you heard the conversation you would realize that two free wills are making a decision by working together and then one says "Let's go to Sunday School." Because usually the first person to exert their will as stronger on a given day and the other complies does not mean the second person has no free will. In fact, this is a weekly discussion and it is about 50/50 on who exerts their will and, in essence, makes the decision.
Paul discusses the dilemma also in wrestling against sin. But again, either direction you freely choose is something one entity or another also wills for you. This doesn’t mean it isn’t free. In fact, it is the freedom that allows judgment. If we were to be judged on unfree choices, this would be injustice.
Last week a local guy was convicted on making a woman go in and rob her own back (where she worked). He did this by holding her family hostage. The crime went down well and no one was hurt, but he went to jail even though she took the money. This is just because it was his will that was executed by the robbery. It was her act, but not her will except in a hierarchical sense, her will to save her family was greater than her will to leave the money at the bank. She still exercised free will though she was being forced in a soft sense of the word, that is, she could have unwisely chosen not to go to the bank (to the peril of her family), so, even though forced, she still had free will.
Calvinistic predestination is not like this. It really is a matter of free will or no free will. If God made the choices, or even knew the choices we will make tomorrow then the choices are not free at all, regardless of which way it went, that is sin/no sin. This is discussed elsewhere on these boards.
Ciao
"Neuk'em" | | Back to Top | | |
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