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johnson
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38
| Posted 3/28/2003 3:41 PM (GMT -6) |   | Bob,
Your comments are fantastic. By Gods grace you will keep it up and persevere to the end.
I am a man, divorced, children.
I have had to fall on my face before the sovereignty of God by His grace and I enjoy it. Isaiah 53:10 says "Yet it pleased God to crush him: he has put him to grief. Isaiah is referring to Jesus in this passage.
If it pleases God to crush Jesus, could it not also please God to crush me? Yes! That is the scriptural reality. Like you said, it is God who gets to do what he wants. It is God who is God and not me. I am God’s human agent to use as He sees fit. Not the other way around. Yet I am fully responsible for my decisions, and will be held accountable for them. Paul said about Jesus, "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him, endured the cross despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb. 12:2.
Bob, it is a gift from God that you can look beyond the sorrow and pain that you will go through, to be able to see the joy set before you, eternity with Christ. Be faithful to your covenant with God and your wife. The reward will be great.
Just after Paul in Heb. 11 describes the wonderful things that God has done for some he has called so that they became kings and rulers. He tells of another group that he has called who did not receive such earthly honors. Heb. 11:28, "Others suffered mocking, and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated-- of whom the world was not worthy-- wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. So much for the health and wealth gospel. These people saw Christ as their joy and promise. They enjoyed Him to the point of death. Their joy in God (given by God) caused them to be obedient to Him. They looked beyond their circumstance, because they could. They could because God gave them the faith to do it.
Unfortunately they (the church) was wrong with counsel to your wife. They should have shown her how to find joy in a marriage that is currently not the way she wants it to be. It would be like the women at the well who already had five husbands, (it doesn't matter if one has had no husbands either, or wives). Jesus was offering her Living Water, one would never be thirsting again. This joy is the joy of knowing that God is serious about his word and that those who believe, will turn from the idols of this world ( a better husband, wife, possessions, power, etc.) and follow him by keeping our own commitments no matter the cost because that is what God wants us to do. This is how we know God's direction in our lives. For marriage the answer is not how can I get out. But, I will stay in because God has called me to this. Not, it was a mistake that God did not know about. But it was the sovereignty of God that joined us together to a commitment, covenant that is to last until death do us part.
Unfortunately, WH teaches that since God did not know what would happen in the future, he gives the option to get out. Spouses then turn to looking for ways to escape their marriage instead of ways to make it better. Emotions end up being the sovereignty, rather than God. The decisions end up being made on the bases of personal feelings rather than the joy of Gods word. It ends up being like a wicca conference. One can say "I am at peace with God", at the same time be living in adultery. And the church will be silent because one can not judge anyone else.
You are absolutely right. A blessing is being given by the Church. The Church either realizes it and does nothing. Or their eyes have been blinded so that in the end days the aposticy may come about.
I am rambling.
I tried to get help through WH. They were worthless like you said. They are loving my ex all the way to hell. She is now living in adultery. They know it, but won't exercise church discipline with her. That's a whole other story.
Even though my wife has remarried, because of the verses in my last post I must remain faithful to my covenant. This is God's direction for my life because he said if I remarry I will be committing adultery. So I won't remarry even though reconciliation to marriage is impossible. I find my joy in Christ not in an adulterous relationship.
You said, "but now I work, I fellowship, I minister, I live... while all the while praying and believing that God is a God of the impossible. Yet, I also accept... knowing that God does not heal all people or all relationships."
You are so right! In Gods sovereignty he set you on a path that would bring you to a place to enjoy and delight in Him more. We pray then with all earnestness that God would do the same to our wives. And since He has caused us to pray (most likely for their salvation, at least for my ex-wife because- unrepentant adulterers have no place in Gods kingdom) that they may find joy in Christ. God may have caused the divorce so that my idolatry would be done away with (look at me worship God, was one of mine) so that I would pray for her-- so that God would then honor my prayers and cause her hard heart to be soften--so that in repentance she can fall before God and one day delight in Him because He is her deliverer and not her emotions.
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johnson
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38
| Posted 3/28/2003 5:49 PM (GMT -6) | | Might be Don,
You said,
The "church" doesn't need to point out the sin in the matter of divorce between believers, we have the Holy Spirit to convince us of our sin.
However, that is exactly what the church is to do according to I Cor. 5. It is the failure of the Leadership of the church by not doing church discipline that this problem of divorce has grown so rampant in the church. There is no standard be raised. There is no accountability being pursued. Only a relativistic, modern/postmodern/"pagan" spirituality, rather than classical spirituality.
A pagan spirituality is formed by the culture that surrounds it rather than people conforming to the word of God. God is minimized. His word is a "if it feels good" option.
Gods love is so enveloping that the wrath of God and the Day of the Lord do not even exist. God's multi dimensional character/personality is minimized by emphasizing Love over all the rest of His character.
This is what I call "Loving people all the way to Hell."
Whoa to you who cause these little ones to stumble. It would be better that you were never born. Why? Because, one faces the wrath of the almighty God. Their sins are unforgiven and will spend eternity in a physical hell.
What is the stumbling? Having people worshiping that which is less than God - turning their affections away from God.
When the church doesn't deal straight with the sin through church discipline, we are causing many, many people to stumble. They have no direction. They will not know the righteousness of God. They will copy the example of their leaders and do nothing. They will see the word of God as meaningless, impotent, and irrelevant for their lives. In a large sense, the Bible becomes "errant" to daily living, giving way to philosophy, culture and psychology.
The Church like myself, needs to be and will be responsible before God for its behavior. In this case the Church needs to trust Christ and submit to His authority over the bride by, eventually, kicking the so called believer out of the church for not trusting Christ. By not doing so "yeast" is spread throughout the church causing mocking by the unbeliever.
The consequence of doing this will be sever. Many people won't come to church because they won't feel comfortable. So what! Our job is to be faithful to God. His job is to Save. We need to be obedient. God will do as he pleases. If we lose "members" so what. We will raise our children in a church that respects what God respects. Mercy for the repentant and wrath for the unrepentant. It's God's call.
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a_theist
"Thy will be done."
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286
| Posted 3/28/2003 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | If you don't mind I'd like to respond to your post. First of all there is confusion...bob is a female, which she admitted in her 2nd or 3rd post.
Ummmmm...Bob is a man.
First Post:
I am not a theologian. Just a simple man with a question.
I went back to see if there was anywhere he switched to a she, but couldn't find any (maybe I need to clean my contacts?).
On Bob's profile information, it states that he is a male. Why would Bob be so deceptive into leading people to think he is a male when he really is a female?
I know that this day and age it has no berring on what sex marries whatever sex (whether it be male on male or female on female or heterosexual unions), but he mentions the divorced was his wife (female I assume).
You mentioned to sbg that you are confuse, but now I am confused, because I find no indicator that Bob isn't a Bob.
Can you help me out?
Peace,
Paul
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects."
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 3/28/2003 6:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Johnson: Unfortunately, WH teaches that since God did not know what would happen in the future, he gives the option to get out. Spouses then turn to looking for ways to escape their marriage instead of ways to make it better. Emotions end up being the sovereignty, rather than God. The decisions end up being made on the bases of personal feelings rather than the joy of Gods word. It ends up being like a wicca conference. One can say "I am at peace with God", at the same time be living in adultery. And the church will be silent because one can not judge anyone else.
Doc: WH teaches that God does know what would happen in the future? You sure?
Because of this spouses turn to looking for ways to escape marriages? Foreknowledge prevents divorice?
Because of this emotions end up being the sovereignty rather than God? Foreknowledge (which you're sure WH teaches against?) keeps emotions in check?
WH becomes like a wicca conference? Wicca teaches against foreknowledge too?
Because WH teaches God doesn't know what would happen people are "at peace with adultery"? Reeeaaallyyy
And because people don't judge each other no one confronts adultery? You sure about this? Wow.
Interesting logical connections here. I should check this place out! sometime. 
Doc
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6
Edited by - GregBoyd on 03/29/2003 12:07:11 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Debjo
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 3/29/2003 3:00 AM (GMT -6) | |
Johnson said:
The Church like myself, needs to be and will be responsible before God for its behavior. In this case the Church needs to trust Christ and submit to His authority over the bride by, eventually, kicking the so called believer out of the church for not trusting Christ. By not doing so "yeast" is spread throughout the church causing mocking by the unbeliever.
Debjo: Just curious, is the case of divorce the only time a believer can get kicked out of the church for not trusting Christ. Or can you get kicked out of the church for not trusting Christ for your finances, or your rebellious teenager, etc.? Just curious.
Debjo
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johnson
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38
| Posted 3/29/2003 11:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Debjo,
Read I Cor. 5&6, Jude, Second and Third John, Second Peter 2, First Timothy 1:20, Second Timothy 2:14-26, Matt. 18. Let me know if these verses answer your question.
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S.B.G.
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 3/31/2003 7:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Cami,
I agree that affairs and other forms of unfaithfulness (an affair with drinking, with work, with pornography etc.)stem from selfishness, immaturity and alot of different factors. I am SO SORRY for your pain and betrayal, it must have been a horrible time for you! It is not my intenet to add to your hurt.
In my post, I was not inferring that our mystery person "Bob" had an unfaithful spouse, I listed it as an example of what may or may not have happened, because I do not know.
My post was intended to express the fact that people cannot rely on the church to save their marriage, or hold the church responsible if the marriage was not saved.
The church can TRY to save it, but the real saving comes from both partners being equally willing to try. My point was, that blame and anger at the church seems misdirected to me.
For instance, let's say the church had convinced your ex he had to stay because he would be ostrasized and condemned by the church community...maybe even lose his salvation. Would that have made your relationship healthy and fulfilling? Would he have been faithful and pure in his sexuality? I submit there is a good chance that he would have just been pretending, and said what he was "expected" to say and done what he was "expected" to do, and it would have been a matter of time before he did it again.
Even with an oustanding counseling program like TNT, the person has to actually WANT to change, WANT to make it work and WANT the marriage, there is only so much outside parties can do.
SBG
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S.B.G.
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 3/31/2003 10:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Cami,
Another thought...
Woodland Hills has recently started a support group for women who have been victims of thier husband's pornography addiction. If you feel at all comfortable with Woodland Hills, I would encourage you to look into it. It is about time SOMEONE reaches out to the poor women who have had their self esteem and sense of purity mutilated.
Having a husband who is hooked on porn is a very lonely place to be; who can you talk to who won't look down on your husband? Who, but someone else who has gone through it can understand the anguish of knowing he's home alone with the internet and vcr? Who can relate to the fear that grips you when you walk down the magazine aisle at the gas station or grocery store?
I won't elaborate, but trust me, I understand. I have spoken with the women who head up this support group, I believe it could provide great---much deserved--- healing to you.
SBG
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S.B.G.
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 4/1/2003 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Bob,
If what you are saying is true, your ex had NO encouragement from the church to work on your marriage. This is most unfortunate, and frankly, I find it hard to believe. Did you confirm this with the people he spoke with, or are you taking your ex’s word for it? I don't know of ANY church that just looks the other way and encourages people to divorce. In my experience, churches get TOO involved and people who barely know the couple act as though they've got the inside track on the situation (My old church, not at WH) and virtually rob them of any privacy whatsoever.
Your repeated reference to Matt. 18 seems to be taken out of context. Divorcing your spouse can be considered a sin against your mate and your children…even your extended family, but to make it so broad as to apply it to the whole church seems like a stretch. To carry the “we are all judges” thing through to its logical conclusion, two parties would basically be holding "Divorce Court" in church...what a humiliating, boundary-crossing circus that would be! You say that there was no adultery in your marriage, but what if there had been? Would you want the entire church discussing all the gory details? How could the person who had committed the "crime" face all those people again?
If a close friend (someone in my small group for instance) was considering divorce, I WOULD speak the truth in love...even if I had to say "This is wrong. You're not in your right mind..slow down here." Because I have covenanted with those people and they have given me permission to hold them accountable. Also because we know each other and consider each other friends, I have the freedom to do so. "Wounds from a friend can be trusted..." If those people sought advice from the larger church body I am CERTAIN they would be encouraged to seek counseling in a professional setting. And I am also certain they would lovingly be reminded that the church does not encourage divorce, and that reconciliation is the favored outcome. But there should also come a point when the church distances itself from the situation, deferring to professional counselors, and protecting the privacy of the parties involved. In my opinion, even in a church, there needs to be boundaries, without it we run the risk of being cultic.
Bob, there may come a day when you find yourself committing a sin that you never dreamt you would commit. If that day ever comes, I believe you will cherish the grace you are given and not proclaim that the church doesn’t discipline or address sin properly. “he who has been forgiven much loves much.”
Don’t forget that in 2nd Corinthians Paul advised the church to welcome back the brother whom they had expelled in 1st Corinthians, because the punishment had been sufficient, and the brother was overwhelmed with sorrow. The greatest command is to love, not judge.
SBG
P.S.
What Greg said in one of his posts is SO true!
“e) it may be that we need a marriage support group. it would need a qualified leader. But I'm not sure how well it would fly, or how helpful it would be, because i) married couples tend to go into hiding when they have serious problems; and ii) marriage problems are so individual, it may be hard to accomplish much worthwhile in a group setting.”
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 4/1/2003 6:04 PM (GMT -6) | | It's important in discussing "the biblical approach" to issues and "what the church should do" to keep in mind what biblical authors had in mind when they thought of "church." It wasn't a group of 5,000 people, 99% of whom don't know the other 99%. It was HOUSE CHURCHES probably consisting of 10 to (at the most) 50 believers. They met daily and shared lives together. In this context, people KNOW each other, TRUST each other, and thus are able to ENCOURAGE and COMFRONT each other with wisdom. THIS is the true "church" of Christianity. Weekend gatherings of hundreds or thousands serve a purpose, but it can't be to be provide the fellowship and accountability each individual (and marriage) needs.
Bob's "church" may have let her down (or not... how would anyone other than they know?). But it doesn't make sense to me to hold a weekend gathering of mostly strangers accountable for whatever good or ill advice she received.
Just a thought
Greg
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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bob
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 46
| Posted 4/2/2003 3:43 PM (GMT -6) | | JOHNSON... I was curious... have either you or your wife remarried?
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bob
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 46
| Posted 4/2/2003 3:50 PM (GMT -6) | | "Sometimes we don't need another chance to express how we feel or to ask someone to understand our situation. Sometimes we just need a firm kick in the pants. An unsmiling expectation that if we mean all these wonderful things we talk about and sing about, then lets see something to prove it".
"Cheap grace is the deadly enemy of our church. We are fighting today for costly grace. Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like the cheapjack's wares. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate."
--Quotes from Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship
Edited by - bob on 04/02/2003 9:11:16 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 4/2/2003 10:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Bob: It's as if you are wording these comments in such a way as to make it clear to me and everyone else reading that you and WH have NO responsiblity whatsoever.
Greg: I don't know who talked to you or your husband, why they said what they said, or whether it was right or wrong counsel Bob. So I don't know to what extent, if any, "they" are responsible for giving wise or unwise counsel.
Bob: Had you said, "Sorry that is WAS not helped" then that would be saying that it could have been, but was not.
Greg: But I don't know that it could have been helped. Clearly all the people involved other than yourself thought it could not be helped.
Bob: I was basically "kicked out" of my home. I was not allowed there.
Greg: Don't understand this. Was there a restraining order?
Bob: I packed- without a single bit of help from him. I was shunned by his family, and I received NO prayer, NO help, nothing from WH when I sought it. I was very much alone
Greg: Where was your small group -- your New Testament "church"?
Bob: And as I mentioned before, to this day, my husband enjoys warm fellowship with those same people at WH who did not tell him to "stay" married.... While meanwhile, my reputation has been destroyed, I have had to find a new home, job, friends, church, etc.
Greg: As you tell your story, it sounds like everyone at WH just has it in for you. Why would people just choose to be mean to you like this Bob? Its odd.
Bob: I have to say that that just blows me away!
Greg: Me too.
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 4/3/2003 4:06 AM (GMT -6) | | I have been at Woodland almost since it’s inception. I have volunteered countless hours praying with and counseling people. I know from first hand knowledge that all day, everyday, they make sure that there is someone available to pray with people who call in and ask for prayer or walk in off the street and request prayer.
Woodland has always valued marriage. I have heard countless sermons that uplift the marriage covenant as one ordained and blessed by God. We have been exhorted repeatedly to love our spouse’s as Christ loved the church. From the very beginning the staff and pastors have consistently prayed for the marriages in the church at their staff meetings. One night a week has always been dedicated to prayer. Many times a year the whole meeting focuses on praying for the marriages in the church.
When people call Woodland for help there are many resources available. People who need marriage counseling or prayer can call and pray with someone, anytime of the day. They can make an appointment to meet with our care pastor. They can meet with our spiritual life pastor. They could set up a time to get together with our prayer pastor. They can request an appointment with a lay counselor. They can get referrals to many excellent sources of help. For those who call in when the office is closed we have a crisis line that is manned 24/7. Including holiday weekends. On Sunday mornings and Saturday nights, after each and every service, the prayer team is available to pray with anyone who asks. I have seen many marriages saved through the ministries at Woodland. Praise God!
Springs
HELLO PEOPLE! Ever heard of GOG and MAGOG! -D
Edited by - Springs on 04/03/2003 09:07:24 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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S.B.G.
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143
| Posted 4/3/2003 6:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Cami,
Do you have a support group now? You've just recieved your divorce papers, you're trying to take care of your children, you're probably 'feeling ignored' in more ways than on this thread. How are you holding up? Do you have people to help you emotionally, and spiritually? I am praying for you so earnestly!
SBG
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johnson
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38
| Posted 4/3/2003 10:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Bob,
I have not remarried. I will not unless my ex-wife dies. (not by me though). Just need to make that clear. Marraige is a covenant between you, your spouce and God. Even if your spouce breaks the covenant that doesn't give you the permission to do so. God will repay.
If I remarry that would be adultery according to Matt 5:32, mark 10:11, Luke 16:18. I'll trust God with my life and let him lead me down this path of faithfulness. I need to also do it for my children so that they know marriage is serious business and there are consequences to breaking the covenant. Also to show them that my joy is in Christ not my circumstances.
My wife did remarry, still attends WH consistantly. She calls it her church. Her new husband is an unbeliever and an abusive drunk. She is in the process of divorcing him.
Bob, you are asking great questions. Keep it up. Make sure they answer you. You are totally right in what you are saying about WH.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/3/2003 1:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I have not remarried. I will not unless my ex-wife dies. (not by me though). Just need to make that clear.
LOL, at least you still have a sense of humour.
_________________________
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 4/3/2003 2:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Bob:there was no restraining order, but there was a very hardened man not wanting to be married and very hateful towards me.
Greg: Then you weren't really forced to leave. You chose to. On this and other aspects of your testimony, Bob, it well help you to see that you are not as much a victim as you seem to feel. That's all.
Bob: my hope was that you would simply be able to accept the things I have shared and that you would ask yourself what you can do next time, what your church may need to do differently, and if there is any truth to things I have said, to pray about it and ask the Lord what needs to be done... next time.
Greg: Always good questions to ask. But I have only your perceptions to go on here, so I have no way of discerning whether the counsel your ex -husband reported got was wise or unwise.
Bob: It is obvious to me you believe my marriage could not have been helped and that the whole thing is "odd" as you stated. I find that to be an easy way to make me look bad and to relieve yourself from having to be open to anything I am saying.
Greg: From our limited interaction Bob, it is my perception that you have a strong filter through which you interpret things. It's understandable. When people are in pain, it screems so loud they sometimes have trouble hearing objectively. I wasn't in on your marriage difficulties, so I don't know whether it could or could not be helped. And nobody is out to make you "look bad," Bob. But it strikes me that this is a deep belief of yours, easily triggered. From where I sit, it seems you see yourself as something of a persecuted victim. You think all the people at WHC, and now me, are out to get you. But why would we do that? Think about that. Do you think I have time in my life to try to make a perfect stranger look bad? Think about it.
IF I'm on here, its either to learn or to help.
Bob: Greg, you said, "I don't know that it could have been helped." And "clearly all the people involved other than yourself thought it could not be helped." How do I take that? It certainly is not encouraging but I really have received no encouragement from you on this post. Not that I expected to or was seeking it, but it sounds to me as if you are pretty much wanting to make it clear that this was one dead marriage that couldn't be helped as you said before.
Greg: When I say "I don't know" it doesn't mean I believe "this was one dead marriage that couldn't be helped." See the difference? In my opinion, it seems your hearing is strongly filtered through your victim consciousness, and it will continue to disable your communication until a) you become aware of it, and b) you do something about it.
Sorry my observation, based on your testimony, that nobody who was involved in your situation thought the marriage coudl be helped wasn't encouraging to you. Would it encourage you more if I said, "seems like everyone involved in your marriage thought it was salvable, but nevertheless told your husband to get out"?
Bob I personally believe that all marriages can be helped. If they cannot, then God would not be the God of the impossible, now would He?
Greg: If only it were all up to God.
Bob: Yet when it comes to marriage... well, I really am not sure what you believe other than that it is very clear you view my marriage as beyond help.
Greg: Again... I have no idea. But I do know that its more about YOU and YOUR EX-HUSBAND than it is God. God would LOVE to have you too together... if it is possible. But the "possible" is not in HIS court: its in YOURS and your EX-HUSBANDS.
Bob: Greg, have basically wiped your hands clean of all of it because you seem to think it could not have been helped.
Greg: I don't take personal responsibility for the marriage failure of everyone who attends WHC, just as I don't take personal responsibility for whatever off handed advice attenders give other attenders. I DO take responsibility for marriages I'm involved in, and I and the Overseers take responsibility for the over-all leadership of the Church.
Bob: Is it at all possible that some marriages that fail could have been helped but were not??? I wonder if you have ever considered that.
Greg: You're being silly now.
Bob: I think it's pretty convenient to be able to say about a failed marriage, "Well, it couldn't be helped anyways." That way there is no burden on anyone and no one has to take any responsibility for it's demise.
Greg: Though you repeatedly deny it Bob, it really seems to me -- try to hear this -- that you are looking to blame somebody for the failure of the marriage. But whether someone could have said something differently, preached differently, or whatever...it doesn't matter. (Which is why this entire thread is misguided). The "if only" game only serves to sheild ourselves from our own responsibility... and until this is squarely addressed, Bob, the things in your life that contributed to your divorce will continue to sabbatoge your future relationships. I would encourage you to look ONLY in the mirror on this one. (though I suspect this will be heard as me washing my hands one more time).
Bob: I feel as if you are trying to make me look bad on here with the wording you have chosen to use in your reply to me.
Greg: Again, I have no interest in trying to make you look bad Bob. Why would anyone do that?
Bob: Or you are simply offended because I am not praising you or WH. I'm not sure which it is.
Greg: This is so sad.
Bob: I'm sure if I had written and said, "Oh, I just love WH, they saved my marriage," then your comments to me would be much more favorable.
Greg: This is even sadder. Bob, I don't recall the conversation you said we had... but I can quite easily imagine now a context in which I said what you say I said, "sister, you need to move on with your life." And I can see now why you would have taken this well-intended advice as not favorable.
I'm sorry for your pain Bob. I'm sincerely sorry for your marriage. I hope that the issues in your life that contributed to its demise get addressed. Having said that, I honestly don't see any further purpose in investing time on this thread.
Sorry
Greg
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6
Edited by - GregBoyd on 04/03/2003 7:19:23 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/3/2003 6:16 PM (GMT -6) | | bob said: JOHN...
Thank you for sharing and answering my question! :)
Your parents story breaks my heart, but I am happy for your dad remarrying a Christian widow... I don't believe he was wrong in so doing for a couple reasons.
For one, your mom committed adultery after the divorce.
John replies: Actually, mom committed adultery before the divorce, and continued to do so for several months before the divorce was final and prior to her subsequent remarriage.
bob said: That doesn't mean they couldn't reconcile, but obviously, she did not want it.
John replies: This is a very revealing statement. I think perhaps this is what Greg is trying to say to you about your own marriage. I also agree that abandonment constitutes biblical grounds for divorce, as well as Tony Evans' application of Matt. 18. It seems to me that in a divorce we are by definition dealing with at least three primary wills, as well as all their significant others' wills. In my mom's case, she had several close friends (and a congregation of about 100 people who loved her) who did not approve of her conduct and who worked to encourage reconciliation and healing for mom and dad's marriage.
It seems to me that without both partners being willing to work towards reconciliation, there is no hope for a marriage, and no amount of godly rebuke, reproof, or exhortation can really make a difference ultimately.
bob said: What did you mean about the counselors convincing her that she was still saved? Do you mean that they simply reaffirmed her? That is a shame if so because obviously, she never repented but yet felt justified. Had she not felt so justified, perhaps she would have repented? Do you think that might have happened or no?
John said: Yes, from her statement, "Now I know once-saved-always-saved is true, because all during that time (that she was engaging in adultery) I could still speak in tongues," it seemed to me that what she was looking for was what Bonhoeffer referred to as "cheap grace"; i.e., forgiveness without repentance, justifying the sin instead of justifying the repentant sinner.
I may have neglected to mention in my previous post that the Christian psychologists mom was counseled by very firmly emphasized that nothing a person ever did could render their salvation null and void. (The antinomian implications of this line of thinking, so common in evangelical Christianity today, are quite obvious). I read in some of the reading material they gave mom that they considered the doctrine of unconditional eternal security to be essential in order for a Christian to develop emotional and psychological maturity.
May God bless you too.
Sincerely,
John
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 04/03/2003 11:58:11 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 4/4/2003 4:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Bob, I want to say that you have been on my heart and mind quite a bit the past few days. I haven't invested anything into this thread but I have felt this urge to pray for you quite a bit. It hurts in a double dose when you are let down and betrayed not only by your spouse but also feel let down by a church! Two solid foundations that are supposed to bring us strength. I think that church (any church) would work great if it didn't have people in it.
Bob when people, churches, and discussion boards let us down we can still trust in the solid rock, the firm foundation of God. We can depend on Him because God is NEVER changing. Jesus will NEVER let us down. When I have felt totally abandoned and rejected in this world I have clung (in faith) to this truth. I write this as an encouragement to you.
My prayers are with you.
trosie
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johnson
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38
| Posted 4/4/2003 4:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Trosie,
Bob wasn't asking for anymore prayers. She was asking for WH "big Church" with elders and ministers and lay people and 501(c)(3) status to accept its responcibility to follow scriptures commands to exersize "big church" discipline as scripture teaches. Why don't you consentrate on answering her prayers?
Greg, I think you should quit building straw men in your arqument that only "House Churches" are to exersize disipline. The only criteria that is mentioned in the bible is 1. do they name the name of Christ and 2. are they among you.
You should also have full disclosure to Bob that at WH sexual immorality is not an issue for church disipline since as you say, "anyone living in sexual immorality is welcome at WH." This was said in context of Christians. Shame on you.
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di
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 49
| Posted 4/4/2003 6:01 AM (GMT -6) | | johnson, I'm not sure if you misread trosie but as someone who knows her heart possibly better than most on this board, I suspect she was not heard as she intended. Just want to come to her defense on this one and say I agree with her in prayer. Yikes, this place has been brutal lately! I hope I can say without being misunderstood that I hear you bob and will pray for you and your marriage to be restored and that we as the Body of Christ will lift each other up.
peace and love,
di
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a_theist
"Thy will be done."
Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 286
| Posted 4/4/2003 5:24 PM (GMT -6) | | *hands kleenex*
"The 'sovereignty' of God is not, I suggest, a very biblical idea, especially if one has a low opinion of the respect of sovereigns for the freedom of their subjects."
~Charles Hartshorne | | Back to Top | | |
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johnson
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38
| Posted 4/5/2003 6:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Atheist,
Can you give me the scripture behind Hartshorne's quote.
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bob
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 46
| Posted 4/5/2003 9:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Johnson,
Can you please expand/clarify on the comment about sexual immorality among Believers? Thanks! 
Edited by - bob on 04/05/2003 10:01:52 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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