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johnson
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 5/14/2003 11:57 AM (GMT -6)

Continued....

18. Divorce damages the lives of the children.
Luke 17:2
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.

19. Divorce is the opposite of the word and ministry committed unto us. 2 Cor. 5:18-19
All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

20. Divorce calls "good" what God hates. Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!

21. Divorce misunderstands who shall abide in the Lord's tabernacle.
Psalm 15:4
in whose eyes a vile person is despised,
but who honors those who fear the Lord;
who swears to his own hurt and does not change;

22. Divorce and subsequent remarriage fail to comprehend the law and its requirement that the marriage covenant is until death. Romans 7:2-3
Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

To be continued....

johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 5/14/2003 12:00 PM (GMT -6)

johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 5/14/2003 12:03 PM (GMT -6)

Edited by - johnson on 05/23/2003 7:37:56 PM

johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 5/16/2003 1:36 PM (GMT -6)

Continued....

23. Neither marriage or remarriage are a "right". 1 Cor. 7:38-40
So then he who marries his betrothed does well, and he who refrains from marriage will do even better.
[39] A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. [40] Yet in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

24. Divorce damages your own name as a promise keeper. Proverbs 22:1
A good name is to be chosen rather than great riches,
and favor is better than silver or gold.
Promise keeping also applies to women.

25. Divorce lowers God's standards for others. Matthew 5:19
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

26. To assume one can proceed to do what God hates by divorcing, and then seek forgiveness later, is to misunderstand forgiveness.
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, [15] but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

27. Divorce puts asunder what God has joined together. Matthew 19:5
and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh'?

to be continued....

johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 5/23/2003 2:09 PM (GMT -6)

continued....

28. Divorce wrongly assumes ownership rights over one's own body. 1 Cor. 7:4
For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

29. Divorce does not exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees. Matthew 5:20
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

30. Divorce misunderstands the pornea of Matthew 5:32, putting Scripture in conflict with Scripture. Marriages of incest and sodomy are forbidden in Leviticus 18, as well as betrothal unfaithfulness listed in Deuteronomy 22 and illustrated in Matthew 1:19

31. Divorce usually runs counter to Romans 12:19. Romans 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

32. Divorce overlooks the call to sufer for righteousness' sake. 1 Peter 2:20-21
For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. [21] For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

to be continued....

johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 6/11/2003 11:43 AM (GMT -6)

Continued...

33. Divorce despises the benefits of adversity. James 1:2-4
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

34. Divorce abandons hope. Romans 5:3-5
More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

35. Divorce and remarriage disqualifies for leadership in the church.
1 Tim. 3:2-4
Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,

36. The disharmony of divorce creates an impossible situation for children who desire to obey the wishes of their parents. Matthew 6:24
"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

37. Divorce and remarriage fails to understand treachery and profanity. Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?

38. Divorce fails to appreciate God as a witness. Malachi 2:14
But you say, "Why does he not?" Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.

to be continued....

johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 6/20/2003 9:26 AM (GMT -6)

Continued...

39. Divorce and remarriage forgets how the Bible describes Bathsheba, even after David tookher as his wife.
2 Samuel 12:15
Then Nathan went to his house. And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick.
Matthew 1:6
and Jesse the father of David the king. And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uriah,

40. Divorce sts the stage for problems to be passed along generationially. Numbers 14:18
'The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.'

41. Divorce mistakenly fosters the impression that current circumstances can just be erased to "get things over with", and "get on with my life" without consequences. But we live in a cause and effect world. Psalm 107:17
Some were fools through their sinful ways, and because of their iniquities suffered affliction;

42. Divorce blocks a man's prayer life. 1 Peter 3:7
Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

43. Divorce attempts to make temporary that which God has made lifelong. Luke 16:17-18
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
[18] "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

44. Divorce and remarriage damages the future provision and ministry of the wife. 1 Tim. 5:9
Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband,

to be continued....

GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 6/22/2003 8:36 PM (GMT -6)

Johnson: 22. Divorce and subsequent remarriage fail to comprehend the law and its requirement that the marriage covenant is until death. Romans 7:2-3

If the marriage covenant can only be broken at death, how do we explain this passage?

Deut. 24:1 ¶ Suppose a man enters into marriage with a woman, but she does not please him because he finds something objectionable about her, and so he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house; she then leaves his house
Deut. 24:2 and goes off to become another man’s wife.
Deut. 24:3 Then suppose the second man dislikes her, writes her a bill of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house (or the second man who married her dies);
Deut. 24:4 her first husband, who sent her away, is not permitted to take her again to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that would be abhorrent to the LORD, and you shall not bring guilt on the land that the LORD your God is giving you as a possession.

How can a husband be FORBIDDEN to go remarry his ex-wife if they are still married?

There were husbands who WERE forbidden to divorce their wives "as long as she lives," but these exceptions prove the rule that divorce was generally allowed (Duet 22:19,29). Certain it was "because of the hardness of their hearts" that God permitted divorce. Certainly God hates it. But it was not considered unbreakable.

Greg

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 6/26/2003 11:19 AM (GMT -6)

Greg,

Thank you. That is a great question. As a matter of fact it has already been asked by a group of Pharisees in Mark 10:2-9 and Matthew 19:3-8.
Mark 10:2-9
And Pharisees came up and in order to test him asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce and to send her away." And Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. [6] But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' [7] 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife,

and they shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. [9] What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

Matthew 19:3-8
And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh'? [6] So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." [7] They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?"

He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

It is interesting to point out that it was not God who commanded the divorce, but Moses who did.

Jesus reiterates that this is not the case FROM THE BEGINNING and LET NOT MAN SEPARATE because God has joined them together.

Nevertheless Moses permitted divorce. Why? And this is the most important factor in the discussion - Because of HARD HEARTS. Hearts that said “I don’t care what you joined together I’m going to do it my own way because of how I feel.” That is my justification for disobeying God. He will forgive me anyway. No HE Won’t. Not unless you repent. One who says this garbage has shown their true allegiance to them self and not to God.

This is why I posted all those other verses to show just how much of Gods word that one would have to violate just to get to the point of divorcing. Such as unforgiveness, breaking covenants, vows, going to court, adultery, going back on your word, uncharity, non-reconciliation, violates men to love their wives and women to respect their husbands, denies Gods command to love. It makes a Liar of the one who claims to love God.

My point is this - It appears to me and what I have experienced at Woodland Hills is that your emphasis is on the freedom to divorce and the God given blessing to divorce for any reason. Rather than placing oneself under the sovereignty of God by trusting him with your life and finding your joy in him.

Woodland Hills emphasis should be - How can I delight in what God has commanded me to do. How can I treasure Christ in spite of the circumstances that I am going through. How can I remain holy as I am commanded to be.

So in your question of How can a husband be FORBIDDEN to go remarry his ex-wife if they are still married? They can if she was never remarried. But in Deut. 24 she was remarried. She needs to go back and seek reconciliation to her second husband or remain unmarried as is commanded in I Cor. 7:11.

Any remarriage is adultery as already explained in the verses I’ve given. Scripture forbids marrying anyone divorced.

Greg said:
There were husbands who WERE forbidden to divorce their wives "as long as she lives," but these exceptions prove the rule that divorce was generally allowed (Duet 22:19,29). Certain it was "because of the hardness of their hearts" that God permitted divorce. Certainly God hates it. But it was not considered unbreakable.

I say,
No, these were not exceptions. These were endorsements of the rule - to remain married till death. Maybe we will read the text.

Deut. 22:13-29
"If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then hates her [14] and accuses her of misconduct and brings a bad name upon her, saying, 'I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her evidence of virginity,' [15] then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate. [16] And the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man to marry, and he hates her; [17] and behold, he has accused her of misconduct, saying, "I did not find in your daughter evidence of virginity." And yet this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the cloak before the elders of the city. [18] Then the elders of that city shall take the man and whip him, [19] and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name upon a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife. He may not divorce her all his days. [20] But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, [21] then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father's house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
[22] "If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman. So you shall purge the evil from Israel.
[23] "If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, [24] then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
[25] "But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. [26] But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor, [27] because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.
[28] "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, [29] then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

So you can see that it enforces the rule. This is why the correct interpretation of Duet. 24:1-4 when it says that the man finds no favor by finding some indecency in her, it is relating to her virginity and not her cooking ability.

John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/26/2003 7:01 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
It is interesting to point out that it was not God who commanded the divorce, but Moses who did.

Let me make sure I understand where you're coming from. You don't believe all Scripture is given by inspiration of God? It seems to me that the context is quite clear--in nearly the whole book of Deuteronomy, GOD is speaking through Moses.

I certainly agree that divorce is a terrible departure from God's perfect will, and in many cases is sinfully motivated. However, I really have a hard time if someone tries to say "God was not speaking, Moses was" in this passage.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 06/27/2003 12:03:59 AM

johnson
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 6/27/2003 4:23 AM (GMT -6)

John,

What does Jesus Teach = It was Moses who permitted divorce and it was for fornication not adultery. With the example given in Duet. 22 it clearly shows that it was when the person was just married and they went to consummate the marriage that the husband found out that the woman was not a virgin he then could write a bill of divorcement. The hardness of heart was on the part of the non-virgin who had disobeyed God by having sex outside of marriage and also who did not report the man who she had sex with. The man who she had sex with also had a hard heart. Once married and the husband overlooked, forgave, the fornication and the marriage was consummated there was not to be a divorce and it was til death do you part.

If I understand what you are saying, then Jesus has a demon because that is what the jews accused him of having.
John 8:48
The Jews answered him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?"

Just because the bible says something does not mean that God endorses it. The Bible does not endorse Jesus as having a demon.

I do believe all scripture is inspired by God. Your confusing what was done with wether God said it was alright or not. Nowhere in Scripture does God say that divorce is permissible. The Old Testament and the New say that Moses allowed it.

I realize it is a hard statement but that is what Jesus also said. Few can except it. Even the Disciples said that it is better not to be married because of Jesus statement.
Matthew 19:10-12
The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry." [11] But he said to them, "Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.

My question to you John is, Has it been given to you and if not why not since this is clearly what Jesus is teaching? Can you remain with your wife and will you despite all kinds of difficulty? Will you remain with Jesus even though he may have you wandering through caves and cursed by the world as those in Heb. 11? If the answer is yes, then you are one to whom it is given.

Psalm 73:25-26
Whom have I in heaven but you?
And there is nothing on earth that I desire besides you.
[26] My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/27/2003 7:43 AM (GMT -6)

Sorry, johnson, you can only mean that we should tear Deuteronomy out of our Bibles. The fact that Jesus referred to Moses was no different than us referring to Paul today. We don't mean to say that Paul's writings were not inspired by God when we say, "Paul said..."

And yes, I do intend to stay with my wife all my life. To that end, I strive to be the best husband and father I can be. But this is beside the point of discussion.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 6/27/2003 8:15 AM (GMT -6)

John,

Then you agree that Jesus had a demon because it is in the bible and it says that the jews said Jesus had a demon.

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 6/27/2003 8:49 AM (GMT -6)

johnson

quote:

John,

Then you agree that Jesus had a demon because it is in the bible and it says that the jews said Jesus had a demon.

johnson, you were on the debate team in high school, weren't you? Don't be shy, I can tell.

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 6/27/2003 2:51 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

John,

Then you agree that Jesus had a demon because it is in the bible and it says that the jews said Jesus had a demon.

This does not follow, as GOD was talking in Deuteronomy, while the enemies of Jesus were definitely NOT speaking authoritatively for God when they said Jesus had a demon. Puhleeze.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 06/27/2003 7:56:54 PM

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 6/28/2003 4:59 PM (GMT -6)

Jesus sometimes refers to the Torah as "God said," other times as "Moses said." Johnson, I honestly think you need to take John Earp's point to heart. It would be VERY odd if Jesus was in this one case saying "Moses -- NOT GOD -- permitted divorce."

On a different note, Johnson, would you now tell all remarried people to get divorced and (contrary to "Moses" prohibition in Duet 24) REMARRY their first spouse?

Greg

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/28/2003 6:09 PM (GMT -6)

Hmmm.... I always took it to indicate a differentiation between the law and grace. The law's outwardness isn't enough. Grace works inwardly. And here, the true inner issue is uncovered.

Most times you hear "grace" used refering to allowances. I'm using it here anyways. The Law and the administration of Moses were imperfect anticipations of something that when come would make truth clearer. The strictness Jesus related -- one more strict -- represented that fulfillment.

The Church is witness that God still works mercifully. But it is also merciful that the goal is always obediance of the heart. Whatever the ruins left along the way... the inner house must become pure.

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