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bob
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 46

Posted 3/14/2003 10:13 PM (GMT -6)

Why is it that divorce seems to be so accepted WITHIN the church?

Edited by - bob on 04/04/2003 12:25:30 AM

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 3/15/2003 5:55 AM (GMT -6)

Bob, I realize you said at the bottom of your last entry that you are not interested in debate and may not be back on the board, so I"m responding more to continue this discussion with others than as a direct response to you because I think you ask some good questions.

bob said: Is it not our sin that led to the divorce and aren't we to grieve over our sin?

Yes and yes. The reasons surrounding any given divorce are usually complex and may involved numerous causes including psychological probems, communication problems, etc....but I would say that by and large, there is usually sin in one form or another that plays a role whenever there are serious troubles in a relationship.

In my own family's divorce the major "sin" was that one my parents simply refused to offer or recieve grace...ever. There was never true forgiveness. I realized even as a child that it was impossible to live in such an environment and understood why my other parent finally sought a divorce, as painful as that was. But the reason my parent never offered or recieved grace was because they had never been shown grace as a child. I believe the sin stemmed back through several generations in my family and me and my brothers and sisters were STILL victims to this sin several generations later.

I believe that divorce is tragic, particularly when there are children involved. It ought to be grieved over and sin is often at the root of the problems in the relationship that lead to divorce.

I think the main reason churches don't focus on the "sin" of divorce is because divorce is already so painful and heartbreaking that it seems a bit like throwing salt on an open wound. Additionally, divorce is usually more complex than that and there are many factors involved. I don't believe blanket condemnations are generally helpful. I think however, that the sins people commit in their relationship prior to an actual divorce should be addressed and shown for what they are if repentance can occur and the marriage be saved. However, in my family, pointing out the sin of my parent only made the behavior worse because what was needed was grace and forgiveness, not condmenation...the very thing they had never recieved. So it is difficult and each relationship must be dealt with in an individual way imo.

I don't believe divorce is God's perfect will for a married couple...I believe healing and reconciliation is always the desired outcome. But it is also not God's will that people sin against one another in a marriage and abuse one another verbally or physically, etc. I don't know what the "right" thing to do was in my family for instance. How could our family continue when no forgiveness or grace existed? If one party refuses to remove the sin in their lives and is resistant or feels they cannot change, what can be done? I guess that's my question.

I would venture to say that life will NOT be "okay". There are consequences. Financial, spiritual, social, and so on. Not only in her life, but in my life and the children's lives, our parent's lives, our friend's lives.

I would have to agree, there are huge consequences to divorce...it should never be taken lightly. The divorce of my parents devastated me beyond words...I'm still sorting through that pain as a young adult.

no church discipline is administered.

Out of curiosity, what kind of discipline do people think should be administered? When my family went through a divorce, my family was kicked out of our Baptist church and I found this terribly painful as a child. To see my parent(s) thrown out of church was absolutely devastating for me, it felt like "we" were an evil abomination whom God had rejected. (Kids usually don't see a difference between their parents and themselves.) I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone. The church made our pain and devastation much much worse by rejecting us and I've had a much more difficult time trusting the Church because of it. Again...I'm not sure what the answers are.

I would like to say bob, that I hear your anger and pain and that I think those feelings are valid given what you've been through. Divorce is horrendously painful. It sounds like you need some folks who will stand with you and acknowledge what you've experienced is "not okay"! I too would have to say, it is NOT merely OKAY. Divorce is tragic and devastating and reconciliation is our hope.

Peace,
~E

honorman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 3/15/2003 8:09 AM (GMT -6)

Divorce is so acceptable in the church today because so many Christians are doing it and because the church today doesn't take sin seriously and hate it as God does...

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 3/15/2003 8:35 AM (GMT -6)

bob,

As a guy whose wife also divorced him, I feel you pain.

My former wife just came up to me one day as said, "I don't love you anymore". Then she moved out with our 9 month old and filed for divorce. Never a chance for reconcilation, I was crushed.

The "church" doesn't need to point out the sin in the matter of divorce between believers, we have the Holy Spirit to convince us of our sin. We also have the Holy Spirit to comfort us when we are hurt. The message I received was "trust God", not the easist message when your hurting, but the only one that will make a difference in your life.

Don't expect the "church" to make things any better for you, only your direct relationships can be of any real help. That relationship should be your close friends and God. Also, the "church" can't help you punish your exwife for what she did, look inside and be sure this is not what you are after.

"Whom the Lord sets free, is free indeed". Allow God to set you free.

peace and love ( much love ), don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

honorman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137

Posted 3/15/2003 2:32 PM (GMT -6)

Sometimes people won't listen to the Holy Spirit and need someone to point out their sin, Don. Just as sometimes the Holy Spirit can "point" out the sin through a fellow believer.

Matthew Timothy Short
Huh?

Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 635

Posted 3/15/2003 4:07 PM (GMT -6)

bob,

http://www.familylife.com/fltoday/flthisweek.asp?id=2564

God is Love,

Tim

2Ti 2:19…Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity...

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 3/15/2003 5:03 PM (GMT -6)

Bob,

Please be assured that I'm trying to "hear" you in every way. I care very much about your situation and am only interested in building you up. This response is meant to encourage you and also reflect back another perspective. Bear with me as I share just a couple thoughts:

First, as a lay counselor at Woodland Hills I want to assure you that some of us are working toward prevention of divorce and toward reconciling broken relationships. Unfortunately, we are limited in how many people we can know and further limited in how many we can affect. I'm sure you are correct in many ways--we are only scratching the surface in this area. I agree much more needs to be done. However, it is important to note that for many of us(covenant partners and others)this is indeed a big part of our vision for the whole church. It is so big that we have actually entered into agreement with each other to work constantly on being rightly related. Now, of course, (as in any large church) that is no small task! We are human and fallen and it is a fight. Nevertheless, we press on.

I am sorry to hear you were hurt by comments and harried responses from some people at WHC. I hope you feel comfortable to go back to them and talk about it. Many times, (myself included)we communicate what we don't mean to communicate and give the wrong impression or send the wrong message. Even if what was communicated was accurate, everyone still needs to be given a chance to explain their deep structure (meaning, intent, and motivation) for saying what they did. We have to seek understanding. Therefore, as you said in your last post(Mt.18)it is vitally important that the listener reflect back hurt feelings, wrongdoing, and ideas on how to move toward understanding and right relatedness to the speaker. In my opinion, misunderstandings, hurt, bitterness and broken relationships are antithetical to WH core beliefs and must be avoided at all costs. We are each responsible to work toward this end. Trust me; I've learned the hard way.

Lastly, I really want to highlight a part of your last post:

quote:
I know of another couple who run a marriage reconciliation ministry. This man committed adultery and divorced his wife. Pastors, friends, and family ALL told her "move on" and to be glad she was out of the marriage with this "jerk". She, however, stood alone and turned to God in prayer. For two years, she fasted, prayed, and sought the Lord while others discouraged her from holding on to this dead marriage. And two years later, God answered her prayers and brought her husband back to her. They have since been married twelve more years and have three additional children that were born after their remarriage (their were four prior to the divorce... a total of seven). They both run the ministry and it is a powerful ministry.

I think it is a beautiful testimony! It adds another perspective and it proves that the MEANING of divorce doesn't have to be FOREVER. There are more possibilities! If this woman stood alone and prayed to God about her marriage …and God answered her. Are there other considerations available to you in your situation?

In Him,
love,
selah

Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Rev. 22:1

Edited by - Selah on 03/15/2003 10:05:03 PM

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 3/15/2003 5:47 PM (GMT -6)

Selah

Lastly, I really want to highlight a part of your last post:

quote:

I know of another couple who run a marriage reconciliation ministry. This man committed adultery and divorced his wife. Pastors, friends, and family ALL told her "move on" and to be glad she was out of the marriage with this "jerk". She, however, stood alone and turned to God in prayer. For two years, she fasted, prayed, and sought the Lord while others discouraged her from holding on to this dead marriage. And two years later, God answered her prayers and brought her husband back to her. They have since been married twelve more years and have three additional children that were born after their remarriage (their were four prior to the divorce... a total of seven). They both run the ministry and it is a powerful ministry.

I think it is a beautiful testimony!

Iconoclast

Wow - what a great testimony. This woman loved her husband so much that she refused to see him as a "jerk" (and therefore treat him as such) but instead fasted, prayed and sought the Lord for two years in order to win his love back. What a great love she must have had for him - it reminds me of how God pursues us - even when we reject Him.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 3/15/2003 6:36 PM (GMT -6)

Hi Bob,

I definitely know where you're coming from, Bob. My own family was destroyed when I was 21 when my mother decided she did not want to be married to my father anymore. Together they had been in pastoral ministry for 27 years. Whenever she was confronted and her own family would try to get her to change her mind using scriptural teaching to show her what she was doing was just flat wrong, all mom would say was, "I know what the Bible says, but I'm just not going to do it!"

I also think a major factor is that we just live in a society that is too free, too postmodern. "Whatever is true for you, is okay," seems to be the basic attitude of many, if not most, in America today, personal happiness seems to have become the chief end of people's existence.

Also, it seems to me that most churches, especially very large churches, are not well equipped or organized to properly teach discipline (not to mention that to focus on discipleship would probably lower membership rolls precipitously--look at what happened when Jesus began talking about his followers having to eat his flesh and drink his blood).

I think you raise some good points (that I have also witnessed) about self-esteem seeming to be more important than obeying God today. An experienced pastor-friend of mine once said virtually all the troubled marriages he has counseled with over the years seemed to him to boil down in one way or another to selfishness. A self-esteem message can very easily become a selfishness message, in my opinion.

Anyway, I am really sorry you are having to go through such a hard time, brother, and I will be praying for you and your wife for reconciliation. It is a real shame if in fact your wife has been encouraged to seek divorce by someone in leadership at your church. As a pastor myself, I would perhaps recommend a temporary separation if you two could simply not get along, especially if there were physical violence of any kind. (Not saying there was, just speaking hypothetically).

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 03/15/2003 11:37:56 PM

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 3/17/2003 6:18 AM (GMT -6)

Bob,

Do I hear ya man! I had EXACTLY the same questions, frustrations and difficulties in the very beginning of my separation.

Some of these, as Miss E says, are not easily answerable.

I live in the tension of a culture that wants "easy outs" and my faith that tells me to "endure" to "hold on" to be "long-suffering."

Some questions that I am always asking myself in relation to my separation are:

Did Jesus allow for divorce? Are spouses ultimately free to leave a marriage (i.e. Miss. E's "If one party refuses to remove the sin in their lives and is resistant or feels they cannot change, what can be done"?). What is the PRIMARY mission of the church? Have counselors removed the theological basis for marriage (i.e. Iconoclast's words regarding the picture of Christ and HIS BRIDE)? Is the church REALLY NOT concerned about divorce or could my perception of lacidasicalness be wrong? Could our anger at the church be misplaced? Does NOT "pointing out" to my spouse that divorce is a sin mean that I don't care? WWJD? Have I tried EVERYTHING for possible reconcilation even keeping my own trap shut and DOING NOTHING? Are there some relationships that just should not be? Is this relationship "healthy" for me and others involved i.e. children?

I will definitely keep you on the top of my prayer list. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt and then brought it back. Been to Hell and back and then back to Hell.

Brandon
"And don't say it's love that broke your heart when you trusted someone. Cause love's the victim, not the crime."--Jody McBrayer, Love Can Break Your Fall www.jodymcbrayer.com

Edited by - BBBCanada on 03/17/2003 11:19:56 AM

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 3/17/2003 10:17 AM (GMT -6)

Just a few reflections:

1. About WHC in particular, I can only testify that
a) I know of dozens of marriages that have avoided divorce by being involved in loving small groups that have helped them work through things
b) I 've heard of a number of marriages who have avoided divorce, or at least been significantly helped, through our lay counseling ministry
c) I know of dozens AND DOZENS of marriages that have avoided divorce through professional counselors we've referred to.
d) our pre-marriage program was designed to help couples work through issues that often plague marriages later on.
e) it may be that we need a marriage support group. it would need a qualified leadler. But I'm not sure how well it would fly, or how helpful it would be, because i) married couples tend to go into hiding when they have serious problems; and ii) marriage problems are so individual, it may be hard to accomplish much worthwhile in a group setting.

2) I seriously doubt that more preaching, or more firey preaching, would help couples stay married. Consider that the divorce rate is significantly higher in the Bible belt than in the nation as a whole. Now, how can the problem be that the preachers aren't preaching against divorce enough when the amount they are preaching seems to be counterproductive? Most Christians know very well that God's ideal is for them to reconcile. But something far more fundamental is going on in marriage issues than information. Which leads to...

3) The contexts for Matthew 18 is not "christians on a whole" but "Christians in relationship." Jesus and all first century people thought of small groups when they thought of Church. When people are going through tough times, they need people who love them and know them to speak and ministry into their life. Strangers can only repeat slogans, however true, but they know nothing of the concrete actual situation, and thus can't speak meaningfully or transformatively into the situation.

Sometimes when marriages blow up people want "emergency marriage making" -- the way some partents want "emergency parenting" when their teenagers blow up. They want to call in "the big gun" -- whoever or whatever that would be, but often it involves "the authority" of a pastor -- and stop the blow up by sheer decree. It rarely works. Marriages, like kids, are made over years with thousands of decision and thousands of behaviors. Only someone on the inside of this can speak in a empathetic, powerful, transforming way to it.

4) I'm convinced the best thing you can do to help people avoid divorce, or any sin, is to help them get taped into the life that comes from Jesus Christ, get healing for their wounds, and get freed from the lies that hold them in bondage. Repeatedly going after divorce, or any sin, is shooting at the symptom, not the real issue. If people were getting life from God and reflecting this life in all their relationships, you wouldnt' have the divorce issue you have now.

5) Finally, I think it may be appropriate to say that the Church, like the government, can't be seen as the fixer of problems. People IN the church, and people IN the government, can sometimes help. But there's only so much either can or should do. To speak specifically of preaching -- God uses it, but I'm always impressed with how little it actually accomplishes. You have 30 or 40 minutes to speak into someone's life -- maybe, if they're motivated to listen, and if the preacher has credibility with the person.

But when our life falls apart, it feels like the Church, or the government, or the preacher, should have done more. It may be that they did all they could do , but it just didn't work out as we'd hoped. In such cases, all that one can do is a) take full responsibility for their part in the failure; b) learn from their mistakes; c) use the pain to draw them closer to God and d) get on to the next thing that God has in store for them.

I grieve whenever I hear about divorces. But I also grieve -- sometimes even more -- when I hear about some marriages. Even God, who hates divorce, deemed divorce preferrable to harmful marriages twice in the OT. Still, its God's ideal to reconcile. I have, quite honestly, been absolutely delighted over the accounts of saved marriages I've received over the last few years through the ministry of WHC. Its one of the areas I've been most happy about, and one of the areas I long to see us grow even more effective in -- primarily by equipping small groups.

But I'm very sorry about Bobs marriage and divorce. I don't know anything about it, but divorce is always a very very sad thing.

Doc

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 3/21/2003 5:46 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

A returned prodigal,
Bob Steinkamp
www.steinkamp.org

bob, are you Bob Steinkamp? If you aren't this is confusing,
maybe preface what you're posting.

_________________________
1 + 1 = 3 for large values of 1

johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 3/21/2003 10:59 AM (GMT -6)

Bob,

I have had a similar experince at Woodland Hills.

Please contact me. Call and leave your first name and that you are from woodland hills. I will get to you. This is the phone # of the R-Kids of Minnesota. 651-770-6164. You can also check out the websight
www.r-kids.org

shell
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280

Posted 3/23/2003 7:56 PM (GMT -6)

I just want to point out a couple things that might be helpful to those reading this thread. First I'd like to raise an awareness about the prayer ministry at Woodland Hills. Currently there are many avenues to receive prayer at Woodland Hills. There is a phone number that people can call to leave prayer requests with the prayer team. These requests are then sent out to the intercessors through a prayer letter. We are lifting up many marriages in prayer through this venue. Also, there is the prayer time at the end of each service with altar workers, and then prayer appointments can be set up for what is called soaking prayer. This is a time to meet with intercessors for a longer amount of time to completely cover an issue in prayer. This includes prayer for the restoration of marriages!

Secondly, the Care Pastor and the team that works along side of him at Woodland Hills are working to expand and grow the Care Ministry by training and equipping more lay counselors to meet the many needs presented by a congregation of Woodland Hill's size. It is exciting to see this desire to reach out to the many hurting people in our congregation.

I'm sorry to hear that some feel they have not been minstered to in the way they feel they should have...although from first hand experience I do know the heart of the pastors and the ministries at Woodland Hills is to reach out to those that are hurting with the very issues that you have expressed here.

Blessings,
Shell

Edited by - shell on 03/24/2003 01:06:49 AM

Edited by - shell on 03/24/2003 01:07:38 AM

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 3/24/2003 4:55 AM (GMT -6)

It concerns me that Bob got the impression she got that WHC is "pro divorce" and that I don’t preach the Word. I’m sorry she has that impression and I’ll take it under counsel. I certainly have areas I need to grow in, and WHC is certainly not a perfect church. Indeed, as Bob opines, we undoubtedly are not even up to snuff with other churches, at least in our marriage ministry.

As to the particulars of Bob’s case, there’s a long, complex story behind every divorce. There’s almost always radically different perspectives and interpretations of the story. For this reason, it’s impossible to assess the rightness or wrongness of someone’s counsel to her or her ex-husband – or to anyone else -- in a venue like this. It’s thus not clear to me what purpose it serves to express personal experiences such as Bob’s in a venue like this. Nor is it clear to me that this is a wise course of action, since this is a public forum. What if Bob's ex-husband, or some of the others involved in this unfortunate break-up get involved in this board discussion? One has to assume that the world reads whatever is posted here.

Be that as it may, I will only go on record as saying that the leadership of WHC believes strongly in the sacredness of the marriage covenant and that divorce should be avoided, even in cases of infidelity, if at all possible. And, I have to again add, I know of a number of marriages that have been saved from divorce through this ministry and/or through involvement through small groups, especially recently. Indeed, this is one of the areas I’ve been most happy with. I’m sorry that, for whatever reason, Bob’s marriage was not one of the ones that could be helped.

Regretfully,

Greg

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

shell
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280

Posted 3/24/2003 5:37 AM (GMT -6)

Greg:

quote:

As to the particulars of Bob’s case, there’s a long, complex story behind every divorce. There’s almost always radically different perspectives and interpretations of the story. For this reason, it’s impossible to assess the rightness or wrongness of someone’s counsel to her or her ex-husband – or to anyone else -- in a venue like this. It’s thus not clear to me what purpose it serves to express personal experiences such as Bob’s in a venue like this. Nor is it clear to me that this is a wise course of action, since this is a public forum. What if Bob's ex-husband, or some of the others involved in this unfortunate break-up get involved in this board discussion? One has to assume that the world reads whatever is posted here.

Shell: You are right, I had second thoughts about even posting a reply for this very reason...so I deleted my reply from today.

bob, I pray that you find the support that you need to make it through this difficult time.

Shell

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 3/24/2003 9:13 PM (GMT -6)

Bob: It was not helped... but it COULD have been.

Greg: Perhaps. Apparently the people you talked to thought otherwise. I have no way of knowing. But its irrelevant now. I'm sorry Bob for the way it turned out, and I sincerely apologize for any inadequate counsel you may have received at WHC.

Greg

"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 3/26/2003 7:14 PM (GMT -6)

Dear Bob,

It may be a small consolation to you, but perhaps it may help to keep in mind that love cannot be forced. While pastors and lay counselors can do a lot to influence people for good OR bad, influence has its limits. Even God does not coerce people to live right. Influence as we might, a person's choices are in the end entirely up to them.

I had to learn this the hard way when my parent's marriage ended in divorce (very much unwanted by me and my dad) in a similar way to how it sounds like yours did. We had pastors and friends very much trying to help us keep things together, though it did not seem to make any difference due to my mom's hardness of heart. This fact is especially aggravated by the ease of divorce in our society today.

You probably already know this all too well, but it seemed important to me bring it up.

Praying for healing for your soul,

John

P.S.: I would very much encourage you to find a group of Christians that you can find the family of God in. No one was meant to walk alone through such a trial.

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 03/27/2003 01:21:51 AM

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 3/27/2003 3:55 AM (GMT -6)

Great words of wisdom there Wyatt.

Ok. I'm sure you get that all the time.

Brandon
"And don't say it's love that broke your heart when you trusted someone. Cause love's the victim, not the crime."--Jody McBrayer, Love Can Break Your Fall www.jodymcbrayer.com

johnson
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 38

Posted 3/27/2003 1:50 PM (GMT -6)

Bob,

Here are some Bible verses. I Cor. 7:10 & 11. To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husdand should not divorce his wife.

Paul is talking to christians in this immediate text.
1. The clear command is for neither to leave.
2. The clear command for those who do leave was to remain unmarried or be reconciled.
3. One who breaks this command is obviously saying to God that he is not trustworthy to take care of me and I will be unable to find joy in christ, because of my bad marriage. I have to get rid of my spouse in order to be fulfilled in Christ. God is saying through Paul, If you are not going to trust me with your current marriage, then don't marry anyone else. This is the only option for the believer. The only outcome of a believer who is the one divorcing is:
1. They are not trusting God because they are breaking his command to stay married by not leaving (separating or divorcing). The divorcing spouse is screaming "I do not trust God".
2. If they further remarry, they compound their lack of trust in God by adultry. Matt 5:32, mark 10:11, Luke 16:18.

This is the only option for the believing couple - Stay Married.

WH would say that the "But if she does" is an exception clause. Meaning that this is and exception to the command to stay married. Since no exception is give then a spouse can leave for any reason (irreconcilable difference). Which can be any thing that a person "can't handle" from the other spouse (ie. brand of toothpaste, theology, religion, how many children one wants) This is why it is becoming common place in the church that most divorces are for the reason of "they made a decision I did not like".

However, it is not an exception clause. It is an "If you go against my command and not trust me, here are the consiquences,"clause. We do this with our children all the time. Stop that behavior or else here are the consequences."

God is a God of reconciliation. That is why He commands the leaving spouse to stay unmarried. When they gain their sences and realise they have not trusted God they can then reconcile to their spouse. If they remarry to someone else they have committed adultry and marraige to their first spouse is not an option. Reconciliation to the marriage is impossible. The walls have been built up.

Until our trust in God is such that we find joy completely in obedience to Him our lives will be spent in idolatry by seeking for joy in other places. Unfortunatly many christian have looked for the source of joy in marraige. Thus the marriage becomes our idol. If Christ is our idol then we will find joy inspite of our marriage by being faithful to God and inturn faithful to our marriage because we trust Christ to keep us. Like Sarah in I Peter 3:1-6, who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening. Like Husbands in I Peter 3:7, live with you wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

In other words, when your spouse is not finding joy in Christ by being faithful, you continue to find joy in Christ and be faithful.

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 3/27/2003 6:57 PM (GMT -6)

quote:

JOHN... I was wondering what happened with your mother and father? I mean, how is your mother now? Has she ever expressed remorse? Has her life been blessed or difficult? How about your father? How did he get through it? Are they hateful to each other? Have you seen the consequences they reaped?

Hi Bob,

Mom has never, to my knowledge, admitted any wrongdoing. She shacked up with one of dad's "friends" (all the while trying to deny she was living with him) shortly after she left dad. In an effort to salvage the marriage Dad paid thousands of dollars in Christian counseling for mom and himself through Rapha, Minerth-Meier Clinics, etc., all to hear her say what these Christian counselors emphasized and convinced her of was that no matter what she did, she was still saved. Indeed, a few years later, mom said, "Now I know once-saved-always-saved is true, because all during that time I could still speak in tongues!" Good grief. Anyway, she has had a very difficult life as far as I can tell. Every time I see her, she seems to always be defending her past actions (though in fact I never try to bring it up, because I know what she'll say anyway). To say the least, our once very close relationship is still at best difficult. She did end up marrying the guy she cheated on dad with, and they seem to get along okay I guess. As would be expected, mom practices a "just believe and live how you want" kind of Christianity (I use the term loosely).

As for Dad, after contesting the divorce (in a no-fault divorce state, not much could be done), he resolved to remain single for the rest of his life (He was 52 if I recall correctly). After seven years of celibacy, he and a widow he had gotten to know at seminary were married. (Dad had decided to finish his master's degree after mom left, and the woman he married was the secretary of the school of theology). Dad's decision came after long and difficult reflection on his predicament. In the end, as mom had committed adultery and had divorced him, he concluded (based on Jesus and Paul) that he was free to remarry a godly woman. I realize some will disagree with this. (I didn't write it to argue, just to answer Bob's question).

I sincerely hope your situation turns out better than my parents' did.

In Christ,

John

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)

revivaltheology.net

Edited by - John Earp on 03/28/2003 07:43:54 AM

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 3/28/2003 2:33 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
DON... are you and your wife still divorced? Is there any hope for reconciliation?

My brief story...

At the age of 19 ( over 32 years ago ) while living with two girls, I came to know Christ. Almost immediately one of the girls and I decided to get married. We were counseled not to do it, but being know everything, two month old in the faith, wise ones, we went ahead and did it anyway. Within a few months my wife's only desire was to have a baby and she refused sex unless conception was a possibility. The baby was born before our first year of marriage was completed. Six months after the baby was born my wife had what she wanted, the baby, so she left.

"Trust God" was the only counsel I got from the church. It was a hard saying, but I set forth to trust God. I have a habit of not letting God off the hook easily, so during a church service I locked myself into the prayer room and told God I was not going to leave until He resolved this issue in my life. Moments later a tongues and interpretation came in the service that spoke directly to my heart, "Whom the Son sets free, is free indeed". While some will debate the theology, God set me free that day. I was no longer bound to a relationship that God never intended for my life. God spoke forgiveness and healing to me.

I've gone on to live a life devoted to God's direction for me and have remarried ( three years after my first marriage ended ) to a wonderful woman that has been a real mother to our three children and more than I could have ever hoped for in a wife.

I support you in whatever you decide is God's direction for your life. We can be informed by God's word, our pastors, our friends, and our family, but I believe that in the end our relationship with Jesus speaks peace to our hearts.

peace and love, don

---
"No Rules, just Right" Outback Steakhouse

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 3/28/2003 2:46 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

Great words of wisdom there Wyatt.

Ok. I'm sure you get that all the time.

Brandon
"And don't say it's love that broke your heart when you trusted someone. Cause love's the victim, not the crime."--Jody McBrayer, Love Can Break Your Fall www.jodymcbrayer.com

Yup. Sure do.

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)

revivaltheology.net

S.B.G.
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 143

Posted 3/28/2003 7:55 AM (GMT -6)

Bob,
The reccuring thoughts I have when reading this thread are of choice and cooperation.

The reason some say things like "It couldn't be helped" or "You need to move on" is that no one, including a church can force someone to try who simply doesn't want to. In fact, insisting that the church get involved and give directives can actually make the fleeing partner feel even more trapped and determined to get out.

I hear your sense of helplessness that no one stopped your wife from leaving, but ultimately that choice was up to her regardless of what other people said. Your wife would need a heart change to truly reconcile, without it, she would just be playing games and responding to the insistance of others. (out of guilt and fear no doubt)

I do have one question for you, and I do not mean this unkindly: Have you owned your responsibility in the breakdown of the marraige? It is a rare situation where only one person is at fault, and the desire to leave or get involved in an affair doesn't typically "just happen".

I am sorry for your pain, and I have been praying for you and your wife since I first read this thread.

SBG

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 3/28/2003 11:54 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

John,

I just have some questions for you as a child of a divorce that was very one sided. If you don't feel comfortable answering I understand.

Have you ever talked to your mom about your feelings about the choices she made?

Yes, many times, especially when all this was first happening. I gave up a long time ago trying to even talk to her about it.

quote:

How does your dad feel about your mom now? Do they communicate? Is there still anger, hurt, feelings of betrayal involved? What was it like for your dad to "move on"? Was there an element of sadness on his part?

They communicate when they have to. Curiously, mom seems to be more at ease around Dad than he is around her (just my perspective). I think there are certainly feelings of betrayal and hurt on Dad's part. I am also absolutely certain that mom remains adamant that she did no wrong.

As to Dad's remarrying, he strongly resisted the idea for many years while he and his present wife were "just friends." (I am certain that this is what things were between them--both of them are very old-fashioned). I am sure that there still remains a great deal of sadness in my dad's heart over mom's betrayal of him. It seems to me that he has never fully recovered emotionally from that.

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see God (Heb. 12:14)

revivaltheology.net

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