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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/8/2003 9:37 AM (GMT -6) |   | Laika,
Are you trying to say Ephesians is nothing more than "word games"? Are you saying I am incorrect in what I presented?
I have clearly demonstrated that one can be in two contradictory states at the same time and you say it is only "word games"? Is it only your (in a generic sense) "word games" that count? Logic says you can't be in two places at the same time, but God is here with me right now just as He is with you right now and it contradicts logic. That's why Solomon wrote this:
Ecclesiastes 8.17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it. Logic just doesn't seem to work when the realm of the spirit is combined with the realm of the physical/natural.
Sometimes I feel like I am on Mars hill, when I participate on this board and see such a predominance of man's logic being used.
Acts 17.22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Evolution is one of the products of logic, as men worship their "UNKNOWN GOD", since the creation account in Genesis isn't logical. They contend that evolution and slow change over eons of time is more logical, until you push them back to abiogenesis. Then their logic fails them as there isn't a mechanism for abiogenesis to happen. The only panspermia is God's creative touch, but logic won't allow that to be a consideration.
I have already shown you that God is present, regardless of time, He is present when the star emits its light, He is present at every point on its journey even though it takes a million light years for it to arrive here, but He is also here, a million year years distance from the star, when the light emits. Time, the traveling distance for the star's light, is meaningless to Him. He doesn't have to wait for the light to get here, it all happens NOW to Him or else He isn't omnipresent.
EDIT: "a million year years distance from the star," should read "a million light years distance from the star".  | | Back to Top | | |
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Modes of Thought
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 8/8/2003 10:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Another way to ask the question of this thread is:
1. Is God finite?
2. If not, then is there a logic of infinitude?
3. If yes, then, who can do it?
A. a finite mind?
B. an infinite mind?
I'd vote like this:
1. no, God is not finite
2. yes, there is a logic of infinitude (this is a statement of faith)
A. Yes, God's mind is infinite and only God can know and experience certain things as a result of this.
So, yes, God is beyond human logic, but yes there is an (rational/logical) order assumed in saying God is infinitely orderly. However, saying so is an act of faith.
How's that?
"I don't feel a real urgent burden to get all the details of my ethics worked out until I've got the profundity of my love worked out in a Christ-like way." --doc
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/8/2003 7:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Modes,
Is this a trick answer? "1. No, God is not finite." The use of a double negative no/not really makes the answer, "Yes, God is finite." I think "1. God is infinite." is what you meant, but, one never knows. | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 8/9/2003 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Can't believe this topic is still going on, but Tigress, your words were quite eloquent!  For real, what you said made a lot of "logical" sense! ;) Same for Modes.
John, you said, "The really funny thing is, those who claim that God is illogical actually are using VERBAL LOGIC to express this thought."
How is that "funny"? Using verbal "logic" has no bearing on whether God is "beyond" logic or not. It is simply a form of communication, one in which us mortal humans must use as God has given it to us to use for communication. BTW, I don't hear a single person claiming that God is "illogical". Please find that exact statement to post for us because you are taking words out of context, IMO. What people are saying is that God defies, surpasses, and is "beyond" logic as we understand logic yet at the same time, He is "logical". Not to hard to understand, but like Modes said, faith, Bro, faith!
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/9/2003 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | | To say God can make "a square circle" is no different from saying he can make a rock so large he can't lift it. That is illogical, for it is based upon the false assumption that anything God created could EVER be greater than God.
In the same way, to say that God is "beyond logic" is not really different than to say He is illogical (i.e., that what He does does not fit with logic). I certainly agree that in our human finite minds we cannot ever truly know ALL there is to know about God, but what this discussion is really about is whether or not we should use what we DO know from Scripture and our God-given ability to reason to discuss God.
Everyone who ever attempts to put together their thoughts about God into a coherent fashion does precisely this. It's called theology, not theo-il-logy. All theologians, including Calvin, Luther, Menno Simons, Edwards, Wesley, Finney, etc., believed in using their intellects to the glory of God, whether they realized it or not. In this regard, Open Theists are not unique. Also, biblically speaking, faith is based on evidence, not feelings. We never once read of Jesus telling people, "Don't use your mind, it can't be depended on."
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/9/2003 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
I believe this is what we are told to do,
Rom 12.2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
That's the only way we are ever going to think like God thinks.
BTW, one usually thinks of illogic as bad, incorrect or invalid logic, while one who is illogical is one who is without logic or senseless. Therefore, no one has even suggested that God is illogical, but rather that God defies man's logic. You (generic) keep ignoring the points I made and Tigress and Modes and Fleetwood that defy man's logic, but you conclude that we are saying God is illogical. God doesn't have to make a square circle to show He transcends, rises above, defies man's logic. All He has to do is be finite while He is infinite, as Tigress says or be in two places at the same time or create something from nothing (talk about doing damage to the laws of physics!) or be a multitude of other things that defy logic. If He defies logic at only one point, He defies logic. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/9/2003 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Paul5388
John,
I believe this is what we are told to do,
Rom 12.2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
That's the only way we are ever going to think like God thinks.
I agree. All I'm saying is that the above verses you cite simply are not contradictory in any way. We can do the above because God says we can.
quote:
All He has to do is be finite while He is infinite,
I am unsure of your meaning. Could you please clarify?
quote:
...as Tigress says or be in two places at the same time
How is it contrary to logic for God to be omnipresent?
quote:
...or create something from nothing (talk about doing damage to the laws of physics!)
How is it contradictory to logic for a Being who can do anything (i.e., is omnipotent) to create something from nothing?
quote:
or be a multitude of other things that defy logic. If He defies logic at only one point, He defies logic.
None of your examples (and I am not ignoring them, I am responding to them), "defy logic." (That is, they do not involve any logical contradictions).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/10/2003 11:50 AM (GMT -6) | | John,
It seems like there is a strange concept being presented of what logic consists of that is obviously not what several of us conceive it to be. Tigress put forth the example of Christ being fully human (finite) and at the same time being fully God (infinite). Those are contradictory states in that one cannot be finite and simultaneously be infinite. Yet, He is/was.
You say there is nothing outside of logic about God being able to be two places at the same time. Can you or anyone else accomplish that feat? Is it an ability that is only available to God? If I understand logic, as you and others have presented it, that would be about the same thing as saying X=B and NOT C or D (where X is the entity and B is Baltimore, C is Chicago and D is Denver, i.e. positions at a particular moment in time), but in the case of God's omnipresence, X=B and X=C and X=D, all at the same time. There is no such thing as a situation where X=B and B not =X, because X is defined as being equal to B, just like a circle is defined so it cannot be configured as a square. In the natural world, if X is in B position it cannot be in C or D at the same time, but God can. | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/10/2003 12:47 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
I finally broke down and decided to read up on logic (just a little).quote:
Note: we are dealing with a very weak sort of possibility, or a very strong sort of impossibility. For the purpose these definitions, it is possible for a human being to run a mile in under a minute (humans might have been stronger; the laws of nature might have been different) but it is not possible for 2 and 2 to make 5; it is not possible for a person to be both a bachelor and married; it is not possible for it to be both raining and not raining in the same place at the same time. (emphasis is mine) source
Even though I have already shown that one can be a bachelor and married at the same time, I think what it is saying is the impossibility of one being in two contradictory states at the same time. Omnipresence is being in two states at the same time, as are the other examples that have been presented. IOW, X cannot be equal to U (unmarried) and M (married) at the same time, since that would be contradictory. You cannot be here and there at the same time, because that would be contradictory. However, God can be in two states or places at the same time, which is contradictory and logic can't handle it even though it's true. | | Back to Top | | |
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/10/2003 4:41 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
We don't seem to be on the same wavelength. One minute you talk about formal logic and yet you present situations that are contrary to formal logic. Formal logic says, "I am awake, but I am asleep" is a contradiction in logic. There is no difference between that and "I am here, but I am there" or "I am finite, but I am infinite." They are all contradictory statements and yet God transcends, rises above or is beyond that logic. At this moment, I am finite, but I am also infinite due to my relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Part of me is going to pass away (or be changed in the twinkling on an eye) and part (the most important part) has everlasting life, but it is still all me. Of course, the unsaved are also finite, but at this moment they do not have to experience the torments of Hades that they will experience after the judgment. God is the difference, because He is beyond logic! My Grand Cherokee is beyond a Model T Ford, but that doesn't imply they aren't both automobiles.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/10/2003 5:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ModesofThought
Another way to ask the question of this thread is:
1. Is God finite?
2. If not, then is there a logic of infinitude?
3. If yes, then, who can do it?
A. a finite mind?
B. an infinite mind?
I'd vote like this:
1. no, God is not finite
2. yes, there is a logic of infinitude (this is a statement of faith)
A. Yes, God's mind is infinite and only God can know and experience certain things as a result of this.
So, yes, God is beyond human logic, but yes there is an (rational/logical) order assumed in saying God is infinitely orderly. However, saying so is an act of faith.
How's that?
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fencesitter
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 8/10/2003 5:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Sometimes its hard to sit on a fence...
Real hard!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Paul5388
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/10/2003 5:55 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
quote:
Other propositions, however, can be disproven - and quite conclusively. There are two ways to do this. The first is to see if the proposition leads to a logical contradiction; if this is so, then the proposition must be false. Examples of this would be "a married bachelor exists" or "a square circle exists." Both of these proposition entail logical contradictions - pointing this out is essentially the same as disproving them.
Similarly, if someone claims the existence of a god, the existence of which entails logical contradictions, then that god can be disproven in the exact same way. Many atheological arguments are based upon exactly that - for example they argue that an omnipotent and omniscient god cannot exist because those qualities lead to logical contradictions. source
I thought you might like to see that the atheists understand what I have been talking about as "logical contradictions" and use it to disprove God's existance. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/11/2003 5:53 AM (GMT -6) | | I JUST LIKED THIS SO MUCH THAT I HAD TO SEE IT REPEATED.
quote:
Originally posted by ModesofThought
I'd vote like this:
1. no, God is not finite
2. yes, there is a logic of infinitude (this is a statement of faith)
A. Yes, God's mind is infinite and only God can know and experience certain things as a result of this.
So, yes, God is beyond human logic, but yes there is an (rational/logical) order assumed in saying God is infinitely orderly. However, saying so is an act of faith.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/11/2003 6:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Paul5388
John,
We don't seem to be on the same wavelength. One minute you talk about formal logic and yet you present situations that are contrary to formal logic.
Can you show where I have presented a situation that is contrary to formal logic? I am simply and only saying that to say God is both here and there does not present a problem if we begin with the understanding that God is everywhere. With this in mind, there is no contradiction.
Yes, I realize that atheist try to disprove the existence of God by using logic, but it is my contention that their conclusions are based on faulty premises, such as "If God were love, then no one would go to hell, no suffering would exist, no evil would exist, etc., etc."
I submit that these conclusions are based on faulty presuppositions; i.e., that for God to be loving evil could not exist, and and He would not have created hell.
I still would like for you to tell me precisely what your vested interest is in saying that God is beyond logic. How does it help you in your faith? How does it help anyone understand the Bible? Do you not use your God-given ability to reason (mental faculties) when you study the Bible.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/11/2003 12:49 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
You said, "How is it contradictory to logic for a Being who can do anything (i.e., is omnipotent) to create something from nothing?" in response to my saying, "or create something from nothing (talk about doing damage to the laws of physics!)". The laws of physics say you can't create energy or matter from nothing. You can convert matter into energy, but you can't convert nothing into energy. Anything that is contrary to the laws of physics is something that can't happen. To say it does happen, is contradictory to logic in the same way that a square circle is contradictory. The laws of physics say you are there, and you cannot be here at the same time. If you are in both places at the same time it contradicts logic, because it contradicts physics. Logic says you cannot do a cannot and a cannot is not something that might happen to be possible, like a running a two minute mile. God does these cannots by definition and as a result, the atheists use that definition of God to prove, logically, that He doesn't/can't exist.
Logic seems to be a defective tool when it comes to understanding God.
The only "vested interest" I have in this subject is to try to bring thoughts into the mix that are outside the "choir". I get the impression that this board is similar to a cloister where few outside thoughts are heard and most are just "preaching to the choir". So, if I can present another view, without it being something that is just weird, it is like "Iron sharpeneth iron". The sharpening device doesn't destroy the implement, it makes it more fit for the task.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/11/2003 2:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Paul5388
You said, "How is it contradictory to logic for a Being who can do anything (i.e., is omnipotent) to create something from nothing?" in response to my saying, "or create something from nothing (talk about doing damage to the laws of physics!)". The laws of physics say you can't create energy or matter from nothing. You can convert matter into energy, but you can't convert nothing into energy.
Paul, I of course agree that YOU (or I) can't make something out of nothing.
quote:
Anything that is contrary to the laws of physics is something that can't happen. To say it does happen, is contradictory to logic in the same way that a square circle is contradictory. The laws of physics say you are there, and you cannot be here at the same time. If you are in both places at the same time it contradicts logic, because it contradicts physics. Logic says you cannot do a cannot and a cannot is not something that might happen to be possible, like a running a two minute mile. God does these cannots by definition and as a result, the atheists use that definition of God to prove, logically, that He doesn't/can't exist.
Yes, for YOU or ME, these things you list above are all impossible. That is simply because neither of us possess omnipotence.
quote:
Logic seems to be a defective tool when it comes to understanding God.
So when you study the Bible, how do you learn? By osmosis? How do you express what you've learned? I am being purposely absurd, please realize no offense is intended. All I'm saying is that systematic theology is a valid endeavor.
quote:
The only "vested interest" I have in this subject is to try to bring thoughts into the mix that are outside the "choir". I get the impression that this board is similar to a cloister where few outside thoughts are heard and most are just "preaching to the choir". So, if I can present another view, without it being something that is just weird, it is like "Iron sharpeneth iron". The sharpening device doesn't destroy the implement, it makes it more fit for the task.
If by saying "God is beyond logic" you mean "We cannot understand God or his word," then I must ask what in the world do you think you're doing trying to use incomprehensible Scripture to explain anything!?!? Think about it.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Paul5388
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 295
| Posted 8/11/2003 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
Nobody didn't never (that's a triple negative for emphasis) say there is an inability of communication. I am quite sure God is far more conversant in English than I am, or Greek or Hebrew for certain. We haven't been discussing His communication skills, but we have been discussing His logic being incomprehensible to us in some areas. Sure He said, "come let us reason together", but surely you don't think that interaction would exhaust God's reasoning abilities. There are some things we just don't understand completely, like the Trinity. To think God is restricted to our logic is to make Him far smaller than what He is. That's just like trying to restrict Him to the constraints of time, as we know it.
I study the Bible just like everyone else. I recognize there are concepts/doctrine/precepts/and etc. that can be communicated through language and what is communicated is sufficient for salvation and living life as we should. However, there are still some things I just don't fully understand and may not ever fully understand until I am in the presence of Jesus. | | Back to Top | | |
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