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Originally posted by honorman on the God as Zigot thread:

My wife had just given birth and she turned and looked me and said, "how can anyone not believe in God after this?"

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3) Cosmos - a Greek word for universe - created by God some 15 billion years ago out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo). The cosmology of the physicist and of the orthodox theologian is similar except for one significant difference; the former is not concerned with the origin of creation, for to admit such would imply a creator which is a theological matter beyond the competence of physicists.
Water did not exist in the earliest stages of the evolution of creation. Hydrogen was the first element which emerged from the primordial plasma of creation. Oxygen came much later through the thermonuclear process of atomic fusion in the evolution and destruction of the largest stars. Having a strong chemical affinity for each other and forming a strong chemical bond, the two elements in the form of water serve as a universal solvent and the medium in and out of which life on earth evolved. About four and one half billion years ago a minor star formed in an outer arm of our galaxy, called the Milky Way. From the debris, dust and gas which swirled around this star (our Sun) planets evolved through gravitational accretion. The third planet from the Sun, Earth, about ninety million miles from the Sun, is close enough to received sufficient heat to support life, yet far enough to allow water in most places to remain in liquid form.

Cosmologists often speak of the "anthropic principle" which states that we see the universe the way it is because if it were different in the least respect we would not be here to observe it. All of creation may be likened by way of crude analogy to computer science - physical creation as the hardware; the laws of physics and chemistry as the operating systems and software; and the mind of God as the source code. Suggested reading for those interested in cosmology: A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME by Stephen Hawking, ISBN: 0553380168; GOD'S EQUASION by Amir Aczel, ISBN: 0385334850; THE LITTLE BOOK OF THE BIG BANG by Craig Hogan, ISBN: 0387983856; THE 5th MIRACLE by Paul Davis, ISBN: 068486309-X; THE BOOK OF THE COSMOS edited by Dennis Danielson, ISBN: 0738202479; MODERN COSMOLOGY & PHILOSOPHY edited by John Leslie, ISBN: 1573922501; THE HAND OF GOD edited by Michael Reagan, ISBN: 0740703234.

4) In the cosmology of the ancient Jews as well as of the Eastern Church, all of creation joins mankind as its surrogate in offering praise to the Creator. God is regarded as "uncreated essence" whereas creation is deemed permeated by God's immanence and omnipresence in spacetime and matter, called by some "divine energies". See BEYOND THE SHATTERED IMAGE by John Chryssavgis, ISBN: 1880971429 and THE MYSTICAL THEOLOGY OF THE EASTERN CHURCH by Vladimir Lossky, ISBN: 0913836311. The cosmology of the Eastern Church will be the subject of a future Web page.

www.byzantines.net/epiphany/water.htm

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Originally posted by honorman

Fleetwood made the statement that God is beyond logic? Can he be? And what would the implications of such a view be for evangelism? Can a God beyond logic stand-up? And how?

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Well I'd like to see Fleetwood back that ridiculous statement up with an argument but I know he can't. Whatever God uses, it won't contradict the logic He gave us and uses to communicate with us.

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Disclaimer: In recognition of the limitations of my knowledge and of the tentative nature of my probable beliefs and opinions; such ought to lead me to a tolerance of those people holding beliefs different from mine. Instead of attacking the beliefs of others, I should strive to find better grounds for my own. And when I encounter conflicting testimonies, e.g. historians, I can only weigh all sides and form a belief, conjecture, guess, doubt, or disbelief, as the case seems to warrant.

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That's why we must let Scripture, not human experience, shape our understanding of God's affections. Those who study the matter biblically will quickly discover that God's Word, not merely classic theism, sets the divine affections on an infinitely higher plane than human passions. We can learn much from the anthropopathic expressions, but to a large degree the divine affections remain hidden in impenetrable, incomprehensible mystery, far above our understanding.
We cannot completely grasp what Scripture means, for example, when it tells us that the eternally unchanged and unchanging God became so angry against Israel at Sinai that He threatened to annihilate the entire nation and essentially void the Abrahamic covenant:

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Originally posted by honorman

I am not using this to ridicule Fleetwood, but rather to ask an honest question about something he said. I think its valid to ask such a question. How does one conceptulize God without some use of logic? I also recognize we can't complete figure God out...

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• Doc: To say that God created logic might suggest that he could have created it otherwise. But this supposition only has meaning to the extent that we can specify what this "otherwise" might have been. Good luck. If this cannot be done, then there is no clear meaning that can be given to suggestion that God created logic. Of course, he could have created a world in which no one thought logical. But could he have created logic to operate differently (viz. where "round triangle" and "married bachleur" were meaningful)?
  
  It comes down to this: are the laws of logic contingent or necessary? It is only meaningful to say they are contingent if there is a conceivable alternative. And for this reason I conclude that they are necessary.



• Al: Logic applies to all that God has revealed. I'd appeal to John Sanders in this respect. ONLY what we can apprehend can be encapsulated in revelation. Anything that is "in" revelation that is not apprehended is, for all practical purposes not there. (like light frequencies we can't see.) THAT from a noted Open Theist.
  
  And no one here, that I'm aware of, is voting for an un-reasonable faith.



• Tom: ... About God “creating logic” I think most theologians who want insist that the fundamental laws of logic always apply do so partly on the basis of the belief that the laws “reflect” the nature of God. It’s not that God “creates” them. It’s that they exist and are what they are because God exists and is the kind of God he is. Given God is who he is, the laws of identity and non-contradiction, for example, cannot be other than they are.



• Tom: Oh, Fred, I just want to say this: Yes, no, no, perhaps, no, yes, certainly, maybe, and certainly not.

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Originally posted by Fleetwood

Logically, I would like you to answer for me:

How did God part the Red Sea?

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Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Logic is not concerned with the possibility of something being true, but with a proposition not violating these rules. By the rules of Logic, it is impossible for a married bachelor or a square circle to exist, as such things break the laws of reality and cannot possibly exist.

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