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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/31/2003 1:11 PM (GMT -6) |   | How about adding a Spinoza category in there, just in case?
 dlw | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 7/31/2003 1:56 PM (GMT -6) | | | If God loves all beings unconditionally, why doesn't he let everyone into heaven? | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 7/31/2003 2:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, I agree. But doesn't the term "unconditional," at it core mean without conditions?
DLW, I am not trying to be contrary (not that I don't have enough experience in that area), but I am really trying to get behind this concept. I recently read a book by Dennis Prager where he makes a comment on this subject. Ive been meaning to post it. I will soon. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/31/2003 6:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Does God (who IS love) love all sentient beings unconditionally?
Yes, just as the Waiting Father never stopped loving his Prodigal Son, though his son was in fact "dead," and "lost," until he returned (repented) to his father.
Luke 15:17 But when he came to himself he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! 18 I will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; treat me like one of your hired hands.” ’ 20 So he set off and went to his father. But while he was still far off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and kissed him. 21 Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly, bring out a robe—the best one—and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; 24 for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found!’ And they began to celebrate.
32 But we had to celebrate and rejoice, because this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found.’”
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 7/31/2003 10:13 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
But doesn't the term "unconditional," at it core mean without conditions?
God so unconditionally loves us that he gives us unconditional freedom to choose. To unconditionally love someone you must allow them total freedom, even at the risk of losing them.
God loves us so much that he allows us the freedom to choose to love him back OR not. He will not make us spend eternity in heaven if our choice is otherwise. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/1/2003 5:20 AM (GMT -6) | | I see this as very interesting AND difficult- my first thought was yes, of course God loves everyone unconditionally. But if we're saying that God condemns some people for eternity, I don't see how that is unconditional love - if we define love as saying - God's grace and mercy on us. B/c once that person is condemned, God has withdrawn his grace and mercy from that person.
Now if condemnation is simply separation from God - and people voluntarily choose it- then it really is God just loving everyone unconditionally and allowing everyone to go with what they want. This seems to go against the biblical picture of judgment, however- which we are all familiar with and I won't go into.
So if the traditional picture of hell as eternal fire and brimstone is true, God's love is conditional in that you have to accept his gift of grace (whether there's capability for resistance or not is a different question)- if you don't accept the gift, you suffer the consequences. So yes the love is conditional. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2003 6:36 AM (GMT -6) | | RD:
quote:
I see this as very interesting AND difficult- my first thought was yes, of course God loves everyone unconditionally. But if we're saying that God condemns some people for eternity, I don't see how that is unconditional love - if we define love as saying - God's grace and mercy on us. B/c once that person is condemned, God has withdrawn his grace and mercy from that person.
Now if condemnation is simply separation from God - and people voluntarily choose it- then it really is God just loving everyone unconditionally and allowing everyone to go with what they want. This seems to go against the biblical picture of judgment, however- which we are all familiar with and I won't go into.
So if the traditional picture of hell as eternal fire and brimstone is true, God's love is conditional in that you have to accept his gift of grace (whether there's capability for resistance or not is a different question)- if you don't accept the gift, you suffer the consequences. So yes the love is conditional.
Ok, RD. It seems to me that you are tying God’s love to judgement such that God’s judgement upon a person NECESSARILY means God’s NOT LOVING that person. Is this true?
Think about what it means to say that “God IS love” This is an extremely intense statement. This is not saying that God is loving or that God does loving things. It’s saying that the very essential existence of God IS love. This means that God not only loves NECESSARILY but that any relationship that God has with ANY sentient being must be GROUNDED in love. This love issues from God’s EXISTENCE, not from the objects of that love. It is unilateral from the very essential existence of God.
So, understanding all this, how can God’s love be conditional?
I want some help with this. Honestly, to me it is incoherent to say the a being that IS love does loving actions based on conditions OUTSIDE of itself! Please give me some more explanation, if possible.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/1/2003 6:50 AM (GMT -6) | | I guess it depends on how you define "love." Saying "God is love"- what does that really mean?
In a thread of mine here I asked how does one choose love? And the replies I got were that love is an action, basically, obedience to God- not just feelings; it is the agape type of love. So if we go by that definition, God loves everyone as an action, he just doesn't have feelings of affection for each creature.
If we define it as God is love, he loves everyone, but the ones who are unsaved are condemned b/c of their choice, and God still loves them while they are in hell - it seems we've pretty much slaughtered the common meaning of "love." Ask a non-christian if it sounds like love for God to send people to hell - or, to allow them to go to hell if you prefer. Unconditional love in action would do everything in its power to save people from themselves.
Thinking about this, i have not voted,b/c I do not know my answer - so no one can accuse me of being on one side or the other, please. I am merely putting some thoughts out there. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 8/1/2003 11:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
I see this as very interesting AND difficult- my first thought was yes, of course God loves everyone unconditionally. But if we're saying that God condemns some people for eternity, I don't see how that is unconditional love - if we define love as saying - God's grace and mercy on us. B/c once that person is condemned, God has withdrawn his grace and mercy from that person.
Help me on this people. Can we say that God loves sentient beings unconditionally (as the Meph Man has described it), yet say that condemning people to hell is an extension of this love? Therefore, yes, God loves unconditionally, and this means sending someone to hell? After all, in the Open View (explicitly written by Sanders) love and judgment/wrath are not antithetical to each other. That is, as Brow and Pinnock in "Unbounded Love/Judgment: Caring Love" says,
"God's judgment serves God's grace....When we relate love and wrath, it is important to recognize that God's wrath is in the service of his love. Love and wrath are not equally ultimate in the divine nature like two parallel attributes: instead, wrath is subordinate to love"
and
"Although there is wrath (contrary to liberal theology), God's love but not his wrath is everlasting."
Should not a better question be about clarifying the relationship between God's love and God's wrath?
Brandon
"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 8/5/2003 9:15 AM (GMT -6) | | OK. Let me know if this is off the topic? Honorman said:
quote:
If God loves all beings unconditionally, why doesn't he let everyone into heaven?
RD said:
quote:
I see this as very interesting AND difficult- my first thought was yes, of course God loves everyone unconditionally. But if we're saying that God condemns some people for eternity, I don't see how that is unconditional love - if we define love as saying - God's grace and mercy on us. B/c once that person is condemned, God has withdrawn his grace and mercy from that person.
Now if condemnation is simply separation from God - and people voluntarily choose it- then it really is God just loving everyone unconditionally and allowing everyone to go with what they want. This seems to go against the biblical picture of judgment, however- which we are all familiar with and I won't go into.
So if the traditional picture of hell as eternal fire and brimstone is true, God's love is conditional in that you have to accept his gift of grace (whether there's capability for resistance or not is a different question)- if you don't accept the gift, you suffer the consequences. So yes the love is conditional.
Meph Man said:quote:
Ok, RD. It seems to me that you are tying God’s love to judgement such that God’s judgement upon a person NECESSARILY means God’s NOT LOVING that person. Is this true?
From what I understand, I don’t think we can think of hell as being the place of Satan’s sovereignty which somehow lies beyond God’s love. Hell would be heaven for Satan AND the unrighteous if that were so. For God would be giving them exactly what they wanted. He’d be giv’n them their final wish!
Could we not say that hell, rather than freedom from the God’s love, is the “dark side” of God’s love? God who loves ETERNALLY NEVER withdraws his love from even those who spurn him? That is, the unrighteous remain the recipients of God’s love? They experience God’s love in the form of wrath because they have destroyed the COVENANTAL LOVE RELATIONSHIP in agreement with RD’s quote:
God's love is conditional in that you have to accept his gift of grace …if you don't accept the gift, you suffer the consequences. So yes the love is conditional
It seems to me that we can experience God’s love as wrath because of the nature of love itself. For love can also be a protective jealousy. That is, love can be a zeal to protect a love relationship or AVENGE it when it is broken. I would think that true love seeks to maintain and DEFEND the love relationship when it is threatened. When a person seeks to undermine the relationship he or she experiences love’s jealousy. If you don’t have this then all you have is mere sentimentality.
If love is patient, kind and not easily provoked, then can it not also be experienced as anger even for eternity?
Brandon
"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form | | Back to Top | | |
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