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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/1/2003 11:17 AM (GMT -6) |   | From Happiness Is a Serious Problem by Dennis Prager, from the Seeking Unconditional Love:
"I am convinced that a major reason for this growing preference for animals is that animals give unconditional love and people do not. And what could be more desirable than receiving unconditional love. (i. e. being loved for doing nothing but existing?).
yet seeking unconditional love is a vestiage of childhood. Young children need, deserve, and therefore seek unconditional love. But adults should not need, do not deserve, and therefore should not seek unconditional love.
As adults, we should not need unconditional love. We should need the love of our peers, which is not the same as the love we should have received as children from our parents. Moreover, unconditional love stymies growth into mature adulthood. If we will be loved no matter how we act, why should we act in a way that earns love?
At the present time, earning love is to many people a heretical concept. But adknowledging that when we are adults, love is in part earned is a cornerstone of maturing. Didn't I need to earn my wife's love when we dated? Why should I stop having to earn it now that we are married? To assume that no matter how I behave my wife will love me is to render me a child and her my mother. Undoubtedly many adults want to be children and want their spouse to be their parents, but this is far from healthy and therefore not a recipe for happiness.
Indeed, I suspect that those who receive unconditional love as children will not seek it as adults-because they have received what they needed when they needed it. Conversely, those who have been deprived of the love they should have been given as children will seek it throughout their lives (or at least until they work on themselves sufficently to fully mature into adults).
Nor do adults deserve unconditional love. The idea that merely existing makes us deserving of others' love renders love infantile. While we deserve decent behavior from our fellow human beings, we have to earn their respect and love.
Because we neither need nor deserve uncondtional love as adults, we should not seek it. If our parents did not give us unconditional love when we were young children, they will not start now. We cannot rely on unconditional love from out children once they have reached their teenage years. And our equals (i. e. friends and spouses) do not give it.
Thus seeking unconditional love is a guarantor of unhappiness if only because we would be seeking something that no one will give us (except dogs). Adult love is never unconditional. As much as any husband and wife love each other, that love is not unconditional. There are and should be-conditions under which a spouse's love can be lost. For example, no woman should continue to love a man who beats her.
What About God's Love
Because human love for other humans (young children excepted) is not unconditional, many people have looked to God for unconditional love. This has profoundly helped many people live in an unloving world, esprecially if their earthly parents never gave them unconditional love.
For the record, however, my religious outlook does not posit a God who gives all people unconditional love. The source of my understanding of God, the Hebrew Bible, which originated the idea of a loving God, does not hold that whether we are the torturer or the torturer's victim, God loves us the same. Indeed, it implies that God's love is conditional (see, for example, Exodus 19:5, where God's love of His people is conditioned upon their keeping His convenant). I believe therefore that even with regard to God, we must try to grow into adulthood. God's love of us is immense and forgiving (if we repent) but not unconditional. In fact, I would have a difficult time loving a God who loved everyone equally. It would mean that God's love was unmoved by anything we do, and I cannot love that which cannot be moved."
These words have caused me much thought on the love of God... | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/1/2003 11:46 AM (GMT -6) | | His theories about unconditional love as adults sound fairly sound - however I would bet that most parents love their adult children unconditionally - even if that adult child ends up in prison or is a bum or whatever. I know I will love my siblings unconditionally, no matter what (yes, no matter what) they do, even if they reject me.
And if God IS love, like some people were saying over at the poll- it would then be impossible for him NOT to love- would it not?
The animal thing is interesting - I have animals and I love them unconditionally, it's not so much that i'm looking for THEM to love ME unconditionally. I love them b/c they're innocent and in need of protection, and I enjoy caring for them. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/1/2003 2:18 PM (GMT -6) | | | Amen, DLW! If our cats started pissing all over the house they would be out of there. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/1/2003 3:27 PM (GMT -6) | | | Give me a break. Of course not. Where is the compassion, the patience? If you have a puppy who is not yet housebroken and messes on the floor, do you kill it? God forbid. You guys repulse me to no end. If this is christianity, no wonder people want no part of it. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/1/2003 6:01 PM (GMT -6) | | RD: thank you! Repulsing you is what I live for (if you could give me some hints on other things that repulse you, I would ever be grateful to you, truly I would)...
BTW, RD are you seriously trying to tell me that if your cat continuously peed over the house everyday that you would just deal with it? Please! As usual you use an example thats paints others in the worse possible light. LIke any pet owner would purchase an animal and then throw it out before it has a chance to be housebroken. YOu might want to try a class in logic. Get real... | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2003 6:20 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
What About God's Love
Because human love for other humans (young children excepted) is not unconditional, many people have looked to God for unconditional love. This has profoundly helped many people live in an unloving world, esprecially if their earthly parents never gave them unconditional love.
For the record, however, my religious outlook does not posit a God who gives all people unconditional love. The source of my understanding of God, the Hebrew Bible, which originated the idea of a loving God, does not hold that whether we are the torturer or the torturer's victim, God loves us the same. Indeed, it implies that God's love is conditional (see, for example, Exodus 19:5, where God's love of His people is conditioned upon their keeping His convenant). I believe therefore that even with regard to God, we must try to grow into adulthood. God's love of us is immense and forgiving (if we repent) but not unconditional. In fact, I would have a difficult time loving a God who loved everyone equally. It would mean that God's love was unmoved by anything we do, and I cannot love that which cannot be moved."
I may as well deal with this. This equates God’s love for people with God’s requirements for covenant. This grossly misunderstands both ideas. John 3:16 says it all. God loves the WORLD (all people), even though John 3:17-18 indicate that NOT ALL will be saved. I won’t even go into the philosophical illegitimacy of saying that a omnibenevolent being can choose NOT to love! Sheesh…
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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BillZeeBub
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 11
| Posted 8/1/2003 6:37 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Fleetwood
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 8/1/2003 6:57 PM (GMT -6) | | Like your posts Meph and BillZee. I will refrain from responding to Honorman the way he has responded to RD.
RD, just rise above it!  Keep pressing on and don't let it get to you (not worth it). | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/1/2003 7:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, God's love is unconditional in that He loves the whole world of people (John 3:16) though they certainly don't and can't deserve it. God's love is SO unconditional that he will keep on loving people even to death and beyond that point, too. I have no doubt that God is still grieved over the sinfulness (willful rebellion) of mankind against Him and his loving and righteous Law, just as the Waiting Father never stopped loving his rebellious Prodigal Son. No doubt it would have crushed his heart to have never seen his son again, but what could he do? The son had made a choice to rebel, and the father's love was so great that he would never force his son to return.
Our Father God's love is so great that he, too, will never force anyone to obey and love him. If they choose to willfully persist in impenitence, they will have in the end committed spiritual suicide, and in rejecting God's mercy will have chosen God's wrath (another side of His love). The greater the love, the greater the anger sometimes.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/1/2003 10:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph: you really shouldn't preach AT people. Its terribly unbecoming. Besides, I do believe this is a discussion site. Fleetwood, I can not tell you HOW relieved that you did not respond to me. Poor RD. She must be terribly hurt that you didn't come to her rescue. What ever will your purpose be now?
I do not believe God's love is conditional in the sense that he does not expect something from us. To receive his love in our lives, we must repent. To continue to grow in him, we must do certain acts as well. Therefore, in order to receive God's love in our lives there are certain conditions. Therefore, God's love is conditional.
BTW, I also don't believe we are called to love everyone equally, but that is another story.
Or putting it another way: God's love is unconditional until we want to receive it. Then it becomes very conditional... | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/1/2003 11:02 PM (GMT -6) | | BTW, Meph, you might want to look at what I posted before you post. There is nothing in my post that said God didn't love the world, or that we shouldn't love our enemies. But rather if there are conditions on said love. Try and keep with the point of the post.
You may love an unrepentant murderer, but you don't let him come and live with you and your children... | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/1/2003 11:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Will those in hell care that God stills loves them? I understand that God grieves for them in hell, doesn't want them in hell, but if there were no conditions, if God did not expect a choice to be made, would not they be better off in heaven? Will those in hell truly care that God still loves them?
Sometimes I wonder if free will is truly worth it... | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/1/2003 11:28 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph: you are assuming that God does the choosing. Given that this is an open theism website, not all would agree with you on that. Regardless, we still have to made a choice and people who do not make the choice do not get the benefits of God's love (unless you include hell and eternal damnation as a reward).
We give love to others in the sense that we do what is best for them, help them out, etc. But we do not let them become abusive to us, we do not let them rape our children, we do not let them steal from us. Love is given freely, but to be in a true relationship with someone, they must meet certain conditions.
For instance, if you a person on a street and they are horribly nasty to you, and they do this for years and years, you may love them and seek their best, but their attitude precludes any type of relationship from continuing. Same with God. His love is conditional if we want a relationship with him... | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/1/2003 11:30 PM (GMT -6) | | | I think Prager's talk about children needing unconditional love and adults not needing it, nor seeking it sheds a lot of light on Christians in general. Maybe thats why there are a lot of Christians out there acting like babies. When you act as if God expects nothing from you, you do nothing. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2003 11:31 PM (GMT -6) | | Ok. Let’s try this…
God’s giving of love is UNCONDITIONAL.
God’s criteria for being in RELATIONSHIP with God is CONDITIONAL.
Isn’t this what you are saying? If so, then we agree.
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/1/2003 11:35 PM (GMT -6) | | | I'm cool with that. This is a work in progress for me anyway. But I find Prager's words thought provoking... | | Back to Top | | |
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bobbym
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 8/2/2003 4:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Ok. Let’s try this…
God’s giving of love is UNCONDITIONAL.
God’s criteria for being in RELATIONSHIP with God is CONDITIONAL.
Isn’t this what you are saying? If so, then we agree.
Ok, I listen to Prager every day (well, almost) and have heard him speak on this subject many times. Without reading and hearing him speak you may interpret his words through your own Christian intellectual filter, that is, your own understanding of God's love for mankind and His Son's command to love our enemies. Prager is very practical on this matter of loving unconditionally. To him loving is not an intellectual exercize, nor is it just an emotional feeling but it is, rather, ACTION. Prager's understanding of love does not allow for "loving from afar" but demands a down to earth, hands on approach. If you love someone then you SHOW it, if you love someone then you ACT on it. The Christian (biblical) view of God's love and recieving God's love being two different things is not part of Prager's thinking. If love isn't acted upon then it may as well not exist except in the mind or heart of those claiming to possess it. The object of that love must either recieve it's manifestation or,at least, acknowledge the "lover's" intentions for that love to become real.
When Prager speaks about "unconditional" love he is referring to the action of showing love no matter how the object of that love may react. In this sense "God so loved the world" is unconditional because "He sent His only begotten Son...", an action which is eternal in fact. How we respond will determine if we love God. We do nonbelievers a disservice when we just say "God loves you" without telling them how He shows His love.
What nettles Prager about "unconditional love" is when he hears Christians say "I love you" to a mass murderer when they have no real contact with the murderer, or hearing people say they continue to love the person who has methodically beat and abused them over the course of many years. This is not love but pathology. And btw, whoever said that parents continue to love their adult children unconditionally must not have adult childre. I do, and it is NOT true!
For those interested in Minn/St.Paul, Prager can be heard on "The Patriot" daily. | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 8/2/2003 4:34 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/2/2003 4:37 AM (GMT -6) | | bobbym:
quote:
Ok, I listen to Prager every day (well, almost) and have heard him speak on this subject many times. Without reading and hearing him speak you may interpret his words through your own Christian intellectual filter, that is, your own understanding of God's love for mankind and His Son's command to love our enemies. Prager is very practical on this matter of loving unconditionally. To him loving is not an intellectual exercize, nor is it just an emotional feeling but it is, rather, ACTION. Prager's understanding of love does not allow for "loving from afar" but demands a down to earth, hands on approach. If you love someone then you SHOW it, if you love someone then you ACT on it. The Christian (biblical) view of God's love and recieving God's love being two different things is not part of Prager's thinking. If love isn't acted upon then it may as well not exist except in the mind or heart of those claiming to possess it. The object of that love must either recieve it's manifestation or,at least, acknowledge the "lover's" intentions for that love to become real.
Hmmm…
If no one were to have responded to God’s loving actions in Creation, would God’s unconditional love have been vacous, meaning nothing? This is a VERY intense statement. I would agree that love can only take place between subjects. I would agree that love entails action (Please see my description on another thread) I would not agree that love has to be received subjectively by the other subject in order to be love.
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bobbym:
quote:
What nettles Prager about "unconditional love" is when he hears Christians say "I love you" to a mass murderer when they have no real contact with the murderer, or hearing people say they continue to love the person who has methodically beat and abused them over the course of many years. This is not love but pathology. And btw, whoever said that parents continue to love their adult children unconditionally must not have adult childre. I do, and it is NOT true!
With the first illustration, Prager would be criticizing the ABSTRACTION of “love” being mistaking for true love that involves the encounter. With the second illustration, Prager would be making an important distinction between unconditional love and conditional RELATIONSHIP holding in the context of that love. I have no problem with either of these. What I have a problem with is Prager obviously equivocating when he talks about God’s love. From what I’m hearing in one breath he says that God’s love is unconditional, while in another he says that it is conditional. (Using honorman’s quote) It would be better if he would be more precise with his terms. Like so…
God’s giving of love is UNCONDITIONAL.
God’s criteria for being in RELATIONSHIP with God is CONDITIONAL.
This shows clearly that in ALL contexts, God’s love is UNconditional. To say that God’s love is conditional is to confuse some important categories.
PS: For those who don't know, sometimes I use Electra's computer and I forget to log her off. ARGGH! My bad, lady. 
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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bobbym
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 8/2/2003 7:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph, you don't have to convince ME, I'm just explaining Prager's thinking, not my own. I'm not interested in the esoterics of love, nor in the abstract theology of love, just the practical stuff that affects me and my world directly. Of course it is up to ME on how large a circle my world is... | | Back to Top | | |
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