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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > God's Love, Part Deux | Forum Quick Jump
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/4/2003 6:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
So, John. Should I hate people who persist in evil? Honest question.
Your question merely avoids the point by shifting the emphasis to humans. It seems clear from the many scriptures I posted (on one of these current threads on this topic) that:
1. God's love is nowhere said in Scripture to be UNconditional.
2. God hates those who do evil (i.e., persist in it).
3. The New Testament commands us to love our enemies, and to leave vengeance to Him.
John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
4. God ceases to hate those who cease to hate Him, and loves those who love Him.
Ex 20:1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 ¶ "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 ¶ "You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 ¶ "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Ps 34:15 ¶ The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous And His ears are {open} to their cry.
16 The face of the LORD is against evildoers, To cut off the memory of them from the earth.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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One Love
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| Posted 8/4/2003 6:27 PM (GMT -6) | | I HATE when I do that. Sorry. Former post mine
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One Love
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| Posted 8/4/2003 6:29 PM (GMT -6) | | | That WAS Meph, John. I'm using Electra's computer and forgot to log her out. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/4/2003 6:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Electra (Meph in this case)
But what I hear you saying is that God can hate people who do evil, but I cannot. (Hating someone and getting vengeance aren’t the same thing)
Deut 7:9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
10 but repays those who hate Him to their faces, to destroy them; He will not delay with him who hates Him, He will repay him to his face.
It would seem that the Psalmist David (a man after God's own heart) did not see a problem with hating those who hate the Lord:
Psalm 139:19-24
O that you would kill the wicked, O God,
and that the bloodthirsty would depart from me—
20 those who speak of you maliciously,
and lift themselves up against you for evil!
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my thoughts.
24 See if there is any wicked way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.
That said, it also seems that that New Testament standard laid down by Jesus is "love your enemies," and "do good to them that despitefully use you."
Apostle Paul also said:
Rom. 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 No, “if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
So I would have to say that the NT standard for us is to NOT hate people even if they are evil. I think the reason God is allowed to hate while we are not is that only God can fully know a person's character.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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One Love
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| Posted 8/4/2003 7:01 PM (GMT -6) | | John:
quote:
So I would have to say that the NT standard for us is to NOT hate people even if they are evil. I think the reason God is allowed to hate while we are not is that only God can fully know a person's character.
Ok. So, God is the only one who has the right to hate people because only God can fully know when that person is fully hate-worthy. Our issue is epistemological.
Ok. So, help me with this. How can a God who IS love (meaning) hate people. The closest answer to that question that came close to making sense to me was Doc’s answer. But as I showed, that has major problems. Maybe you have a better way of solving that.
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/4/2003 7:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Ok. So, help me with this. How can a God who IS love (meaning) hate people. The closest answer to that question that came close to making sense to me was Doc’s answer. But as I showed, that has major problems. Maybe you have a better way of solving that.
More than simply epistemological, I think the reason we are not supposed to hate while God can is one of authority.
As to your theory about God loving Satan, I submit that the issue is resolved thus:
1. The expression of God's love is in fact conditional, not unconditional.
2. God's being of love, "agape," is best understood and defined as benevolence or charity. That is, a disposition to bless, whose expression (#1) is conditioned upon one's acceptance of that love. On further consideration, it seems to me that the phrase, "God IS love" can only be metaphorical, when one looks at all of the biblical information about God--wrath, vengeance, anger, hate--all of these words are used to describe God's emotions in some cases. And so I don't think the apostle intended to describe God's ontological status when He said "God is love." The context reveals that 1 John 4 is referring to the Christian obligation to act in a loving manner towards one another.
3. When your major premise "God loves all sentient beings unconditionally" is reworked to say, "God loves all sentient beings conditionally," then I see no problem with the subsequent conclusions derived from the premise. In my view it presents no problem to say "God hates the Devil" because Scripture affirms emphatically that God hates evil and those who persist in evil, and God's love is not guaranteed to such persons, including Satan.
This seems to be closely analogous to saying a governor is benevolently minded towards the society he governs even though the necessity is in that some cases duty requires that he restrict evil by punishing or imprisoning it. It would in fact be unloving of God or any governor NOT to promote the highest good of all within the realm by condemning criminals when the conditions of mercy are refused.
I don't claim to have a "better" answer than anyone; however, it seems to make sense to my finite mind.
To defeat what I have said above, I think you need to only:
1. Show from Scripture where it ever says that God's love is unconditional to all persons.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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One Love
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| Posted 8/4/2003 7:42 PM (GMT -6) | | John:
quote:
I submit that the issue is resolved thus:
1. The expression of God's love is in fact conditional, not unconditional.
2. God's being of love, "agape," is best understood and defined as benevolence or charity. That is, a disposition to bless, whose expression (#1) is conditioned upon one's acceptance of that love.
3. When your major premise "God loves all sentient beings unconditionally" is reworked to say, "God loves all sentient beings conditionally," then I see no problem with the subsequent conclusions derived from the premise.
In my view it presents no problem to say "God hates the Devil" because Scripture affirms emphatically that God hates evil and those who persist in evil, and God's love is not guaranteed to such persons, including Satan.
This seems to be closely analogous to saying a governor is benevolently minded towards the society he governs even though the necessity is in that some cases to restrict evil by punishing or imprisoning it. It would in fact by unloving of God or any governor NOT to promote the highest good of all within the realm by condemning criminals.
Ok. I think this is just like what I talked about with Honorman. Are you saying 1 or 2?
1) God acscribes worth and blessing and HOLDS a benevolent disposition for people ONLY IF and WHEN people are open to accept his love. Otherwise God withholds God’s love.
2) God ascribes worth and holds a benevolent disposition for people REGARDLESS IF people are open to accept his love. Thus, God never withholds God’s love.
If you are saying #1, then that’s conditional love. If you are saying #2, then that’s unconditional.
Your analogy can apply to situation #2 as I have shown before. You can have a governor who truly does love EACH INDIVIDUAL in society and is really benevolent towards all. However, because of a fallen society, judgement and punishment of evil must take place. It’s not like the governor bases her benevolence upon whether or not a person is a law abiding citizen. No. The governor loves all people and it actually PAINS her to punish people to the fullest extent of the law. But she does.
Judgment, wrath, and anger don’t negate unconditional love at all.
So, are you advocating #1 or #2?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/4/2003 7:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Ok. I think this is just like what I talked about with Honorman. Are you saying 1 or 2?
I was numbering each point of what I would say, to help me to structure my argument. I am asserting all of the points that I numbered.
quote:
1) God acscribes worth and blessing and HOLDS a benevolent disposition for people ONLY IF and WHEN people are open to accept his love. Otherwise God withholds God’s love.
Well, I wouldn't exactly word it that way. It seems to me that all persons for a time have an opportunity to be reached by God's love. After this time (character solidification, perhaps?) God no longer reaches for them (i.e., "My Spirit shall not always strive with man...") That there is a time for each person beyond which God no longer tries to save them I think is clear from Scripture, Reason, and Experience.
quote:
2) God ascribes worth and holds a benevolent disposition for people REGARDLESS IF people are open to accept his love. Thus, God never withholds God’s love.
If you are saying #1, then that’s conditional love. If you are saying #2, then that’s unconditional.
I didn't think I had been at all ambiguous in stating that I find Scripture to teach that God's love is in fact conditional. Until you can show me one scripture that demonstrates that God's love is UNconditional, I see no compelling reason to concede your major premise.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/4/2003 7:56 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm reposting this after I edited it quite a bit, so that it won't be lost in the shuffle. I have bolded new portions:
quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Ok. So, help me with this. How can a God who IS love (meaning) hate people. The closest answer to that question that came close to making sense to me was Doc’s answer. But as I showed, that has major problems. Maybe you have a better way of solving that.
More than simply epistemological, I think the reason we are not supposed to hate while God can is one of authority.
As to your theory about God loving Satan, I submit that the issue is resolved thus:
1. The expression of God's love is in fact conditional, not unconditional.
2. God's being of love, "agape," is best understood and defined as benevolence or charity. That is, a disposition to bless, whose expression (#1) is conditioned upon one's acceptance of that love. On further consideration, it seems to me that the phrase, "God IS love" can only be metaphorical, when one looks at all of the biblical information about God--wrath, vengeance, anger, hate--all of these words are used to describe God's emotions in some cases. And so I don't think the apostle intended to describe God's ontological status when He said "God is love." The context reveals that 1 John 4 is referring to the Christian obligation to act in a loving manner towards one another.
3. When your major premise "God loves all sentient beings unconditionally" is reworked to say, "God loves all sentient beings conditionally," then I see no problem with the subsequent conclusions derived from the premise. In my view it presents no problem to say "God hates the Devil" because Scripture affirms emphatically that God hates evil and those who persist in evil, and God's love is not guaranteed to such persons, including Satan.
This seems to be closely analogous to saying a governor is benevolently minded towards the society he governs even though the necessity is in that some cases duty requires that he restrict evil by punishing or imprisoning it. It would in fact be unloving of God or any governor NOT to promote the highest good of all within the realm by condemning criminals when the conditions of mercy are refused.
I don't claim to have a "better" answer than anyone; however, it seems to make sense to my finite mind.
To defeat what I have said above, I think you need to only:
1. Show from Scripture where it ever says that God's love is unconditional to all persons.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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One Love
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| Posted 8/4/2003 8:25 PM (GMT -6) | | John,
There IS no one Scripture that shows God’s love to be unconditional. This view is primarily extrapolated from the Scriptural idea of God being love. I (and I believe others) would disagree with you are what the writer of 1 John is attempting to do. For certain, he is talking about Christian action, but he is using a THEOLOGICAL BASIS for doing so: God being love. Moreover, the themes of love are so pervasive in Scripture, it’s hard to get away from God truly being so closely identified with love.
There is no one Scripture that shows that God ascribes worth and holds a benevolent disposition for people REGARDLESS IF people are open to accept his love. The closest that I could come to that would be John 3:16 (and the like) and that would only deal with all HUMAN beings.
So, I suppose if you are looking for an encapsulating Scripture that will prove my point, then I have nothing for you. This line of thinking is extrapolated from biblical ideas. So, maybe this is the end of the line for you on this.
I hear your position, understand it and respect it…though I disagree. You seem to me to be saying that God acscribes worth and blessing and HOLDS a benevolent disposition for people FOR A TIME, WHEN people are open to accept his love. After that, God withholds loving them at all. Personally, I cannot understand the meaning of God BEING love necessarily in God’s essential existence while CHOOSING to withhold love to certain person’s based on external conditions. It’s nonsensical to me.
But that’s just where I am.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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trosie
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Total Posts : 550
| Posted 8/4/2003 11:17 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I hear your position, understand it and respect it…though I disagree. You seem to me to be saying that God acscribes worth and blessing and HOLDS a benevolent disposition for people FOR A TIME, WHEN people are open to accept his love. After that, God withholds loving them at all. Personally, I cannot understand the meaning of God BEING love necessarily in God’s essential existence while CHOOSING to withhold love to certain person’s based on external conditions. It’s nonsensical to me.
Here are a few scripture that reinforce God withholding his love:
Matthew 27:46 & Mark 15:34 "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means "My God, my God, why did you abandon me?"
Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do. When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord! In you name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!' Then I will say to them, I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!"
Sirach 16:6-13 "The Lord's flaming anger will break out against a small gathering of sinners or a disobedient nation. He did NOT forgive those ancient giants who rebelled against him, confident of their own strength. He DETESTED the arrogance of the people among whom Lot lived, and he did NOT spare them. He showed NO mercy on that nation which he doomed to destruction for its sins, nor on those 600,000 people on the march through the wilderness who gathered together in stubborn rebellion. Even if there had been only one stubborn person, it would have been a miracle if he had escaped punishment. The Lord is merciful, but he can also become angry. He can be overwhelming in his forgiveness or in his anger. His punishment is as severe as his mercy is great. He judges people by what they have done. No sinner can escape with what he has stolen. The Lord will reward the patience of devout people."
Love is PATIENT AND KIND. The above verses exemplify how God was NOT patient nor kind with sin or evil doers which means he withheld his love since love IS patient and kind. John is on to something when he says that God's love is CONDITIONAL -- the above verses seem to back this view.
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One Love
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| Posted 8/5/2003 12:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok.
God IS love (perfect love, I suppose), in such a way that…
--God can choose to hate people.
--God is the only authoritative, justified, and consummate hater of persons.
--We are commanded to love our enemies, but God doesn’t have to.
--God only loves conditionally, not unconditionally.
--God’s love has a time limit.
This is in opposition to God loving all sentient beings unconditionally.
I thought I had all this figured out...
Wasted,
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/5/2003 1:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
God is love yet
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness
How true. And rather than being like "the two oars of a rowboat" (which is a good picture of faith and works) its more like "two sides of a coin." Each implies the other. | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 8/5/2003 2:49 AM (GMT -6) | | I’ve noticed that some people are posting Bible verses to prove that God hates some people. I’ve been reading the prophets lately, and they have some extremely harsh things to say about some people. But there is an interesting pattern. God always gives reasons for wrath, usually along these lines: you were unfaithful to me by worshipping other gods and abusing widows and orphans. Although God uses extreme language to express wrath toward sinners, God’s expression of love is even more extreme. And the crazy thing about this love is God doesn’t give any reason for it.
This is a pervasive biblical theme, beginning with Noah and the flood. God promised never to flood the earth again even though God knew that every human heart was just as inclined toward evil as it was before the flood (compare Gen. 6:5 and 8:21). In his commentary on Jeremiah, Terence Fretheim says, “Israel brings no words or deeds to this relationship that motivate God to make these promises of salvation. But Israel is a people loved by God, not simply in spite of who they are, but also because of who they are...”
It’s not as if the people suddenly stop sinning so now God can be nice. No, God loved them while they were yet sinners. God loves because God is God. Our sin is serious, but it’s not so serious that it conditions God’s nature.
For this is like the days of Noah to me:
as I swore that the waters of Noah
should no more go over the earth,
so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you
and will not rebuke you.
For the mountains may depart
and the hills be removed,
but my steadfast love shall not depart from you,
and my covenant of peace shall not be removed.
(Isa. 54:9–10; cf. Jer. 31:35–37)
Fretheim also has an excellent discussion of this pattern in his book, The Suffering of God. Because God’s steadfast love never ceases, the Godward side of divine wrath is experienced as grief.
Electra
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/5/2003 3:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by trosie
Here are a few scripture that reinforce God withholding his love:
Matthew 27:46 & Mark 15:34 "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means "My God, my God, why did you abandon me?"
This was Christ's experience, and one that he voluntarily undertook. Notibly, it does NOT chronicle any separation of the Son from the Father. It is all about Christ in his humanity assuming and suffering the consequences of our sin. It his Christ paying the price for our sin by paying TO reality for the reality of the consequences of that sin. So I wouldn't say that this was "God withholding his love." Rather, it was Christ suffering the abandonment, "in his flesh (Personally too; not just physically!), that is ours by right, that in his resurrected Body, by the Spirit, we may attain unto life everlasting.
quote:
Originally posted by trosie
quote:
Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do. When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord! In you name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!' Then I will say to them, I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!"
This verse does what you are looking for.
But I also notice that there is a lot of patience before the judgement. And with that patience God sometimes mixes in providential judgement--as a parent chastening child.
I also take note that this is "official" speach -- court language. It speaks of administrative action. And at the general resurrection EVERYTHING changes. Yet, some hope even after that change, that some may repent even then, and become more receptive to God's love.
[quote]Originally posted by trosie
[quote]Sirach 16:6-13 "The Lord's flaming anger will break out against a small gathering of sinners or a disobedient nation. He did NOT forgive those ancient giants who rebelled against him, confident of their own strength. He DETESTED the arrogance of the people among whom Lot lived, and he did NOT spare them. He showed NO mercy on that nation which he doomed to destruction for its sins, nor on those 600,000 people on the march through the wilderness who gathered together in stubborn rebellion. Even if there had been only one stubborn person, it would have been a miracle if he had escaped punishment. The Lord is merciful, but he can also become angry. He can be overwhelming in his forgiveness or in his anger. His punishment is as severe as his mercy is great. He judges people by what they have done. No sinner can escape with what he has stolen. The Lord will reward the patience of devout people."
Love is PATIENT AND KIND. The above verses exemplify how God was NOT patient nor kind with sin or evil doers which means he withheld his love since love IS patient and kind. John is on to something when he says that God's love is CONDITIONAL -- the above verses seem to back this view.
But, as Modes pointed out, patience CAN be in the form of judgement. And the harshest form of judgement is abandonment to letting our sin run its course and making our "iniquity full."
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