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One Love
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Posted 8/1/2003 9:00 PM (GMT -6)

God (who IS love) loves Satan (a created, sentient being) unconditionally.

I expect at least 18 votes on this one, too. Wink

Iconoclast
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Posted 8/2/2003 8:30 AM (GMT -6)

If ha-satan were indeed a sentient created being then the obvious answer is yes. The reason the answer is not obviously yes is because at some level we all realize (IMHO) that Satan is not REALLY just like us - that is - a sentient created being. Satan is more like inflation. Inflation is something that us humans produce (and are unaware of actually producing it) that is bad. We talk about inflation as though it were an entity just like like we talk about Satan as though it is also an entity. But it is not. Satan is ha-satan - the accuser, the adversary. It is that part of all of us that rejects God and each other. As such God does not unconditionally love Satan just as none of us loves inflation. Satan is bad, bad, bad. Pure evil. Why? Because it is something that by definition hurts created sentient beings that God DOES unconditionally love.

This also explains why God would allow Satan to be "the god of this age". We all would say that Satan's character is solidified into pure evil. So why would God continue to allow Him to wreak havoc? Because Satan is not really a created sentient being. Satan just like inflation is produced by us. And yes, just like inflation we need to "attack it".

We could just as well say that "materialism is the god of this age" and then go about attacking it. And how would we attack it? Why we would try and influence other people to not be materialistic. And how would we do that? We would lead by example - we would first seek to be non-materialistic ourselves. Of course one can't just NOT do something - one must have to do something positive to OVERCOME it. This is why we are commanded to love one another. That is the positive thing to do to overcome our accusation and judgement of one another and thus to "defeat the enemy".

I realize this view is hard to grasp or buy into. I believe that this is because we are mostly unaware of how we use metaphor to structure our conceptual frameworks and thus understand and act within the world. The book "Metaphor's We Live By" by Lakoff and Johnson uncovers this truth. Highly recommended reading.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

DLW
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Posted 8/2/2003 9:52 AM (GMT -6)

Satan was defeated at the cross.

I'd rather spend time considering concrete manifestations of evil than waxing theologically about what God's relationship to Satan is.

But that's just me. Evil

dlw

Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

One Love
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Posted 8/2/2003 10:49 AM (GMT -6)

DLW:

quote:
I'd rather spend time considering concrete manifestations of evil than waxing theologically about what God's relationship to Satan is.

If all you are getting out of all this is “waxing theologically” on obscure themes of relationships, you are obviously missing the main point. Look at all the threads. This has to do with LOVE. You know…the center of God’s existence. The reason for Creation itself. The 2 greatest commandments that summarize ALL of God’s intentions for our lives. The ONLY thing that makes ANY spiritual or religious action worth ANYTHING ultimately speaking, according to Paul. The greatest out of faith, hope, and love. Yeah…that thing.

I will post my motivation for all this possibly at a later time. But this is NOT just ivory tower theologizing. This is about getting to the HEART of what love is, it’s implications, and it’s meaning for our lives before God and fellow humans.

But that’s just me. Big Smile

"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."

--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God

John Earp
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Posted 8/2/2003 11:23 AM (GMT -6)

I think it is important to always keep in mind that when we speak of agape love, we are speaking of godly charity/benevolence, that is, unselfish goodwill, or the disposition to bless and not curse.

If God is truly benevolent towards all, then by definition he looks after the interests (highest good) of all.

With this in mind, it poses no problem to view God as acting in as truly loving (benevolent) a manner as possible towards Satan and all those who follow him (God's enemies).

With respect to people who are enemies of God, He seeks to win them by his love demonstrated through Christ on Calvary.

With respect to those who persist in rebellion against the love of God and fellow man (benevolence) the highest good for all is that they be imprisoned ultimately (hell). If God did not limit evil in this manner, He would not be truly benevolent towards all.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

One Love
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Posted 8/2/2003 11:29 AM (GMT -6)

Good insights, John.

DLW
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Posted 8/2/2003 11:53 AM (GMT -6)

I'm sorry. I let my biases get the better of me sometimes. Blush

I think the focus should be on the mundane details of ecclesiastical institutions or questions of Christianity and Culture, since these tend to parlay easier into us reconsidering the ways we try to be God's light to the world.

I took Boyd and Eddy's God, Evil and Spiritual Warfare Class. I liked it but when I was doing a project on trying to relate the notion of territorial spirits to Liberation Theology(A project that ended up being primarily about territorial spirits as I was in my last semester and doing the senior slide big time Wink

), I felt it left me flat. I mean the implications of their being spiritual beings that were in charge of various regions came out to:Well we need to pray together against these spirits or for whatever communal sins that plague us. And how were we to know what precisely to pray for, well we need to pray for that as well or read up on history with discernment.

So I mean I can accept that there are spiritual intermediaries between us and God and that Satan, though his brow is crushed is still kickin', I think we tend to relate or deal with these issues from a perspective that doesn't explicitly consider their spiritual dimensions and I'm not sure what value-added that spiritual dimension would give(I am confirmed in this prejudice after reading what Modes what wrote in the Playing God link.).

So that's where I am at. It is really ironic I write these things here in MX since "territorial spirits" with Walter Wink were developed in conjunction with the common frustrations with the systems of governance here in MX. A good movie that illustrates this is "La Ley de Herodes".

dlw

dlw

One Love
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Posted 8/3/2003 8:53 AM (GMT -6)

Just making a note. There seems to be a HUGE disparity between the answers for the first poll question and this one. It seems that out of 19 people (currently), over 85% believe that God (who IS love) truly does love all sentient beings unconditionally. However, here that figure is in no way similar.

What's interesting about this is simply that all the second question is doing is specifying a CERTAIN sentient being rather than leaving it abstract. So, whence the big disparity?

1) God unconditonally loves all sentient beings.
2) Satan is a sentient being.

What's the conclusion of 1 and 2? Smile

trosie
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Total Posts : 550

Posted 8/3/2003 11:17 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
We talk about inflation as though it were an entity just like like we talk about Satan as though it is also an entity. But it is not. Satan is ha-satan - the accuser, the adversary. It is that part of all of us that rejects God and each other. As such God does not unconditionally love Satan just as none of us loves inflation. Satan is bad, bad, bad. Pure evil. Why? Because it is something that by definition hurts created sentient beings that God DOES unconditionally love.

This view of yours would have in the past weirded me out but I have come to appreciate what I "think" you are saying. Someone recently pointed out to me that in Genesis 1 God FIRST created the light/dark and a few days later (day four) God created the sun, moon, and stars. What this person pointed out to me, and I have been chewing on, is the question of what was the light and dark if not what we consider day and night? Could it have been good/evil? Could this parallel to Genesis 3? From the beginning God created a way to allow creation to choose to receive his love or not.

Does God unconditionally love of ALL sentient beings? As I understand it God loves ALL of creation which thus would include the angels, yet despite God's unconditional love, half of the angels in heaven fell and decided against God. So too I think there are those who, despite God's love, will decide against God. God's unconditional love includes having freewill and freewill includes choice. I think God's plan was to create the light and dark to give us a choice and once our choice has finalized (death) then His love is conditioned into eternity. We either are transformed into God's likeness or we fall like half the angels did.

This has been burning inside me and I have been chewing on it for a while!
trosie

Tom
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Posted 8/3/2003 11:26 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Mephi: It seems that out of 19 people (currently), over 85% believe that God (who IS love) truly does love all sentient beings unconditionally. However, here that figure is in no way similar.

What's interesting about this is simply that all the second question is doing is specifying a CERTAIN sentient being rather than leaving it abstract. So, whence the big disparity?

1) God unconditonally loves all sentient beings.
2) Satan is a sentient being.

What's the conclusion of 1 and 2?

Had you posted both questions symultaneously you would have probably gotten more consistent answers. Most people (well, I at least) don't normally think of Satan when I think about about "sentient beings." I answered "Yes" on the first one and "No" on the second. If I knew you were including Satan in the class of "sentient beings" on the first one, I would have answered "No."

Tom Smile

DLW
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Posted 8/3/2003 11:43 AM (GMT -6)

Is Satan still sentient after being defeated by Jesus' resurrection from the Dead?

What is an unconditional loving thing to do to a completely evil being? If Satan were still sentient then wouldn't Satan be capable of other than evil?
dlw

One Love
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Posted 8/3/2003 1:34 PM (GMT -6)

My def.

What is a sentient being? An entity that embodies self-awareness and the ability to deliberate

Satan obviously fits into this category.

GregBoyd
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Posted 8/3/2003 2:26 PM (GMT -6)

I think its a profound and disturbing question Meph.

I believe that God is love and that everything God does is love. So, I can't with consistency say that God HATES Satan. But I find I'm hesitant to say that God "loves" Satan. For a number of reasons, I can't go with Iconoclasts metaphorical view of ha satan. So I've got to find another way of reconciling my beliefs -- or just bite the bullet and say that God loves Satan.

Here's my way.
* God loves each being he's created, and his love holds them into existence, as you hold Meph.
* All sentient beings are created to participate in God's love, but sentient beings are free for love cannot be coerced.
* God hates anti-love, precisely because God is love.
* So long as a being has the potential to love -- to be what God created them to be -- he loves them, despite their anti-love. But a being can become so solidified against God -- in anti-love -- that their BEING is anti-love without remainder. Satan is the prototype of all such beings.
* Now there is nothing left for God to love. His love now is expressed in mourning, for he loves what they COULD HAVE and SHOULD HAVE become. But in their actuality, they are living in contradiction to what God created them to be, and what God loved about them.
* This doesn't qualify God's unconditional love anymore than saying God does love anti-love qualifes God's unconditional love. Indeed, I'm saying the exact same thing.
* As to Iconclasts question about why God would continue to let ha satan wreak havoc, I answer that it is build into the principle of proportionality (TWT4). If Satan has x potential for love -- defined qualitatively and quantitatively over time -- he as x potential for evil -- defined qualitatively and quantitatively over time.

The remaining question, of course, is why God who only acts out of love would allow Satan or any sentient being to endure eternal hell. TWT4 may cover this, for it may be that the potential for eternal love requires the potential for eternal anti-love. If this argument fails, however, then my line of reasoning would logically require annihilation, so far as I can see.

GREAT QUESTION.

Doc
When a being becomes irrevocably solidified against God - when they BEING is against God, not just their DOING --

"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10.

PotOnWheel
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Posted 8/3/2003 5:25 PM (GMT -6)

Maybe part of that problem is that we have formed a habit of thinking of "judgement" as being devoid of love. Working from the end of what might be a spectrum (not saying it is--I won't know), "judgment" can be the corrective for those soft-hearted enough to turn. That "judgement" was also "mercy." Maybe that is why some monks felt lead to pray even for the devil.

PotOnWheel
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Posted 8/3/2003 5:48 PM (GMT -6)

But here's a resource:

Iconoclast
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Posted 8/3/2003 5:57 PM (GMT -6)

Doc

For a number of reasons, I can't go with Iconoclasts metaphorical view of ha satan. So I've got to find another way of reconciling my beliefs -- or just bite the bullet and say that God loves Satan.

Iconoclast

One benefit of the metaphorical view is that you get to keep all the basic metaphorical mappings (conceptual logic) of Satan being an entity. You lose nothing in terms of "him" being the enemy - "him" being the anti-christ, anti-love, accuser, adversary, tempter and so on - but you gain a simple straightforward answer to the question of whether God love Satan - NO. God does not love that which hurts ALL the sentient creatures that He DOES love.

As an added bonus you get a simple straightforward understanding of why "going to war" against Satan is fought by focusing on our own selves - by conquering our own judgement and by loving others unconditionally.

I don't see that you lose anything by adopting this view. In fact, Jesus talking as though Satan was an entity can easily be understood by thinking about how Jesus would have talked about inflation at the time. God uses human language (which means metaphorical mappings) to communicate with us.

If Satan really was the accuser within each one of us and the very real force/pattern that that generates how WOULD Jesus talk about it? I submit that just like us He would adopt a "pattern as an entity" metaphorical mapping just like we do with inflation or any number of other things.

I don't see anything that you lose. The God at War metaphor would still work - we would just understand it more powerfully that God is really "at war" with our propensity to go against Him - our "accuser" - our judgement. And how does God "fight" that war? He dies on the cross for us to prove that He loves us and that we really ought to quit accusing and condemning each other. Doesn't this "fit" more accurately with our conceptualization of what is going on? Isn't this similar to the "drug war". Isn't the most powerful way to "win" the drug war to influence individuals to not take drugs? Which of course really means to help individuals find true life.

Everything to gain, nothing to lose by adopting "Satan as a metaphor" (which, of course, is really just another metaphorical mapping Smile

).

Okay - Doc, would you at least agree that "Satan as a metaphor" is a better metaphorical "fit" with our understanding of reality than the "Satan as a sentient being" metaphorical mapping?

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 8/3/2003 5:58 PM (GMT -6)

Doc:

quote:
* God hates anti-love, precisely because God is love.
* So long as a being has the potential to love -- to be what God created them to be -- he loves them, despite their anti-love. But a being can become so solidified against God -- in anti-love -- that their BEING is anti-love without remainder. Satan is the prototype of all such beings.
* Now there is nothing left for God to love. His love now is expressed in mourning, for he loves what they COULD HAVE and SHOULD HAVE become. But in their actuality, they are living in contradiction to what God created them to be, and what God loved about them.

There’s a problem here. To the extent God MOURNS for Satan, God is exhibiting LOVE for Satan. Period. You seem to be trying to make a disjunct between God loving Satan and God mourning Satan. There’s not one. God utterly hates anti-love and sin, but God doesn’t MOURN them. God lovingly mourns the PERSONS that are wholly solidified in them.

Sorry, Doc. You are AGREEING with me. Just bite the bullet and say that God unconditionally LOVES Satan.

What do you have to lose with this, anyway? Big Smile

PS: to Iconoclast. Did a metaphorical Satan tempt Jesus when he was in the wilderness...transporting Jesus to the top of the temple and all??

One Love
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Posted 8/3/2003 6:09 PM (GMT -6)

This needs to be stated very plainly:

God does NOT love sin and anti-love

God does love PERSONS who are solidified in sin and anti-love

This is simple as A B C, y'all...

Iconoclast
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Posted 8/3/2003 6:23 PM (GMT -6)

MephEternal

PS: to Iconoclast. Did a metaphorical Satan tempt Jesus when he was in the wilderness...transporting Jesus to the top of the temple and all??

Iconoclast

If "Satan as a sentient being" is a metaphor what is the reality behind the metaphor? It must be something within humans - perhaps a bodily distance from God - that causes us to to "see" (and therefore be tempted) that it is possible and even alluring to go against God and seek to have life on our own. To seek to be the king of all - to be in control of all.

I do not believe that Jesus was literally transported to the top of some temple in the wilderness. I believe that Jesus experienced just what Eve experienced in the Garden - "Did God say?" This is experienced within our own minds every day. And notice that Jesus overcame this temptation by affirming the word of God.

Question for you MephEternal - why does the story of Adam and Eve say that a serpent tempted Eve? A serpent is clearly something that was part of the worldly creation. It doesn't say that some outside force came and tempted Eve. It seems to me that the story is making a very important point that we must not lose. When God created he said that it was "very good" (some translations suggest that it really says that it was a "unified order"). The point the story is making by saying that a serpent (something WITHIN the "very good" / "unified order") tempted Eve is that the very good, unified order had the ability to comprehend that it was possible to go behind God's word and thus go against God. Again - NOT some outside force.

Also - does inflation have power to cause significant negative effects in an economy? Don't we speak about inflation as though it is an entity? Isn't "inflation as an entity" how we conceptualize it? How can "inflation as a metaphor" cause anything? It doesn't. The real force / pattern "causes" bad things.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Iconoclast
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Posted 8/3/2003 6:25 PM (GMT -6)

MephEternal

Sorry, Doc. You are AGREEING with me. Just bite the bullet and say that God unconditionally LOVES Satan.

What do you have to lose with this, anyway?

Iconoclast

Only our deep intuition that God does NOT love Satan but that God DOES love ALL sentient created beings.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

One Love
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Posted 8/3/2003 6:33 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Meph:
What do you have to lose with this, anyway?

Iconoclast
Only our deep intuition that God does NOT love Satan but that God DOES love ALL sentient created beings.

I would say the intuition may right, but misapplied. The intuition is that love doesn’t love ANTI-LOVE. This just plain makes sense. The misapplication is thinking that PERSONS who are solidified in anti-love are now able to be objectified into anti-love!

Hey, if ANYONE can prove to me how an unconditionally loving God can NOT love in ANY WAY a sentient being who is solidified in sin and anti-love, then I will concede the point.

OTHERWISE… just ante up and SAY IT! God loves Satan...and all other sentient creatures. Big Smile

Iconoclast
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Posted 8/3/2003 6:37 PM (GMT -6)

trosie

Someone recently pointed out to me that in Genesis 1 God FIRST created the light/dark and a few days later (day four) God created the sun, moon, and stars. What this person pointed out to me, and I have been chewing on, is the question of what was the light and dark if not what we consider day and night? Could it have been good/evil? Could this parallel to Genesis 3? From the beginning God created a way to allow creation to choose to receive his love or not.

Iconoclast

I think this is a very good insight trosie. I do not think that it was good/evil that was created but rather that it was the fundamental splitting of unified reality into concrete opposing yet interrelated forces neccesary for our ability to choose. Semeia has made the observation that creation shows the pattern of God creating and then dividing. Creation followed by division. I believe this has something to do with the "epistemic distance" neccessary for us to have the ability to choose for or against God. The concept of Yin/Yang was invented to try and bring a conceptual framework to this creation / division where the forces oppose each other and yet the seed of the other is contained within each.

Look at pleasure and pain. They are opposing forces yet what is the pleasure in pain? It is that the pain will end. And what is the pain in pleasure? It is that it too will end.

Good insight.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Iconoclast
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Total Posts : 1227

Posted 8/3/2003 6:40 PM (GMT -6)

MephEternal

Hey, if ANYONE can prove to me how an unconditionally loving God can NOT love in ANY WAY a sentient being who is solidified in sin and anti-love, then I will concede the point.

OTHERWISE… just ante up and SAY IT! God loves Satan...and all other sentient creatures.

Iconoclast

I think you have this one sewn up tight Meph. You are right on the money. Except, of course, Satan is not REALLY a sentient being. We just speak about "him" that way because that is how humans conceptualize complex forces.

Your syllogism fails because your minor premise is mistaken.

So, God loves ALL sentient beings.
God hates Satan.

No problem here. Cool

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

One Love
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Total Posts : 13888

Posted 8/3/2003 6:46 PM (GMT -6)

Sweet, Iconoclast. Thanks for the comment. I understand your perspective, even though I disagree. But it's good to know that the logical tightness of my argument (given my presuppositions of Satan as sentient being) is truly there.

So, anyone who DOES happen to believe that Satan is an sentient being...well... heh...

whew! Wink

trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 8/3/2003 10:05 PM (GMT -6)

POW

quote:
Maybe part of that problem is that we have formed a habit of thinking of "judgement" as being devoid of love. Working from the end of what might be a spectrum (not saying it is--I won't know), "judgment" can be the corrective for those soft-hearted enough to turn. That "judgement" was also "mercy." Maybe that is why some monks felt lead to pray even for the devil.

But, the bible has already laid out the plan of what will happen to all the evil and to those who have chosen hell. What would be the purpose to pray for the devil? Don't you think eventually a person's heart is solidified one way or the other? Here's a scripture that says "yes" -- people choose one way or the other until this decision is solidified.

John 3:18 "Whoever believes in the Son is not judged; but whoever does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in God's only Son. This is how the judgment works: the light has come into the world, but people love the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil. Anyone who does evil things hates the light and will not come into the light, because he does not want his evil deeds to be shown up. But whoever does what is true comes to the light in order that the light may show that what he did was in obedience to God."

Iconoclast

quote:
I think you have this one sewn up tight Meph. You are right on the money. Except, of course, Satan is not REALLY a sentient being. We just speak about "him" that way because that is how humans conceptualize complex forces.

Your syllogism fails because your minor premise is mistaken.

So, God loves ALL sentient beings.
God hates Satan

In 1John 4:4 Satan is referred to as a spirit. "But you belong to God, my children, and have defeated the false prophets, because the Spirit who is in you is more powerful than the spirit in those who belong to the world." I believe the spirit world has more to do with Genesis 1:1 -- the light and the darkness. Iconoclast, to me you are making so much sense!

quote:
Semeia has made the observation that creation shows the pattern of God creating and then dividing. Creation followed by division. I believe this has something to do with the "epistemic distance" neccessary for us to have the ability to choose for or against God.

I agree and I am finding Genesis 1:1 to be profound in explaining what this probationary period of life is all about!

Hey, how does this type of verse fit into God's unconditional love?

Proverbs 3:32 "because the Lord HATES people who do evil, but he takes righteous men into his confidence."

This discussion is so interesting!
trosie

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