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Tom
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| Posted 8/3/2003 11:31 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/3/2003 1:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom,
Ok, man. Let’s talk.
I’ll just ask the question. Why do you think that God (whom you believe loves all sentient beings unconditionally) doesn’t love Satan (A sentient being)? I really want to good comprehensive answer. I’m serious.
The reason that this is important to me is that this will show me logically how a person who loves all beings UNCONDITIONALLY can actually refuse to love someone based on a condition found within the other subject.(ie being completely solidified in a negative, evil pattern)
Help.
PS: Yes, I love Satan, the Enemy. The one who would steal, kill, and destroy my life. How does this get expressed? Even though I will fight against Him to the teeth and long for his ultimate destruction in the Consummation, I MOURN for his lost condition and his permanent loss of "what could have been" Genuinely so. I cannot imagine God NOT mourning Satan's predicament either. Mourning for the bitter, hate-filled, misspent, wasted lives of our enemies IS a valid expression of love for them.
Let's be honest. It's just plain EASIER for us to OBJECTIFY all of our enemies rather than do this. Some people do it for former Nazis. Some people do it for KKK members who've threatened them. Satan is no different.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/3/2003 5:34 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel on "God's Love, Part Deux"
Maybe part of that problem is that we have formed a habit of thinking of "judgement" as being devoid of love. Working from the end of what might be a spectrum (not saying it is--I won't know), "judgment" can be the corrective for those soft-hearted enough to turn. That "judgement" was also "mercy." Maybe that is why some monks felt lead to pray even for the devil.
Based on what I posted on your Poll page, the hymn verse "and crushed the serpants head" ("Sing choirs of New Jersalem" http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/y/e/yechoirs.htm) is not "unloving." | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/3/2003 5:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Here's a resource:
Angels and Evil Spirits
http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/orthodox-faith/doctrine/angels-and-evil-spirits.html | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/3/2003 6:11 PM (GMT -6) | | | In all frankness, I am not sure I love anyone I do not have a relationship of some type with. | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
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Total Posts : 550
| Posted 8/3/2003 10:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Searching, I ditto your question. I don't recall where this is found either but God also said that he wished we were either hot or cold but because we are lukewarm he will spit us out. I don't understand how someone could say they love Satan when to say such a thing is actually saying I love the darkness. God fights against the darkness and desires to bring people into the light.
Loving Satan or the powers of darkness does not compute with the light of the world?
trosie | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2003 1:58 AM (GMT -6) | | I hear you, Trosie.
Whatever is the case, NOTHING sets aside the onging battle and the fact that evil spirits are evil and the enemy. Nothing changes the prayers, and the promises concerning them.
quote:
"Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour." (1 Pet 5:8)
"Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places..." (Eph 6:11-12).
STOMP THAT SERPANT'S HEAD. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/4/2003 3:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Reposting my quote:
Yes, I love Satan, the Enemy. The one who would steal, kill, and destroy my life. How does this get expressed? Even though I will fight against Him to the teeth and long for his ultimate destruction in the Consummation, I MOURN for his lost condition and his permanent loss of "what could have been" Genuinely so. I cannot imagine God NOT mourning Satan's predicament either. Mourning for the bitter, hate-filled, misspent, wasted lives of our enemies IS a valid expression of love for them.
Loving your enemy does NOT mean that you don't fight against their evil machinations and, even hope for their end at some point.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2003 4:10 AM (GMT -6) | | A thought:
Meph, I agree with you as opposed to Icon. But if icon's attention to metaphor were converted to "aspect" and attached to the end of your possition, and were conditioned by it, then... If Satan were converted eventually, then he would no longer be the one he is -- he probably would need a different name! | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/4/2003 6:27 AM (GMT -6) | | I think this issue is resolved if we keep in mind that "agape" love need not imply warm, sweet feelings. If we view God's love as most essentially selfless benevolence, the apparent problem Meph brings up is resolved.
I also found the following scriptures enlightening and pertinent:
Psalms 5:5 - The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalms 7:11 - God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Psalms 11:5 - The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psalms 45:7 - Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows
Psalms 81:15 - The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.
Proverbs 8:13 - The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Deut. 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; 10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. 11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.
Deut 32: 39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. 40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. 41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. 42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Amos 5:15 - Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.
Proverbs 8:36 - But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
The above I find to all be quite consistent with the NT revelation of hell (whether one is a traditionalist or an annihilationist). God will destroy the evildoers in hell. I think this also is in keeping the Dr. Boyd's principle of proportionality -- to the extent that they could have experienced God's love, those who are finally impenitent will then experience God's hatred/wrath:
Matthew 3:7 - But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 1:18 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 2:5 - But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; ; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Romans 12:19 - Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Romans 13:4 - For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Ephesians 5:6 - Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Hebrews 3:11 - So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Revelation 6:16 - And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 - For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 11:18 - And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 14:10 - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:19 - And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 16:1 - And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Revelation 19:15 - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tom
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| Posted 8/4/2003 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi-
Besides mourning Satan's lost condition and his loss of "what could have been," is there any other expression your love for him takes?
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/4/2003 8:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
quote:
Besides mourning Satan's lost condition and his loss of "what could have been," is there any other expression your love for him takes?
Good friggin question, Tom! 
Answer: NO. There IS no other expression this love takes. Why? Because to the extent that you believe that solidified beings in anti-love really CANNOT be brought back, there can be no true praying for restoration. That hope is gone. All you can mourn their current state and hope for the swiftness of their eventual end. Not only for their sakes but for others.
The main thing this does for me is to keep me from OBJECTIFYING my Enemy, Satan (or any OTHER enemy for that matter) We simply tend to use Satan (AND OTHERS) as scapegoats and whipping boys. We do this by objectifying. And it's a real easy reason why we do it: It's easier to fight a war that way. Ask any soldier that been in a war about how objectifying your enemy instead of empathizing with and mourning for them OFTEN makes killing them easier. But if we are truly going to be unconditionally loving, we can not just go by some pragmatic ideas about what makes fighting easier. We have to embody the heart of God, even as we stand resolutely against the Enemy. By mourning his life, I exhibit the unconditional love and pain that I KNOW God feels for Satan.
Another thing. Unconditional love doesn’t NEGATE wrath or anger. Hopefully, this is understood from what's said above.
Again, Tom, good question.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/4/2003 4:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
quote:
How do you categorize Satan, demons, angels with us? Where's the start? All we know is that Satan and demons disobeyed God, other angels did not. Let's see the reasoning behind your cosmological leap.
Some people think of some animals as being sentient as well.
Does God unconditionally love dolphins and chimps as well?
Does He love demons/angels if He provides no salvation for the rebels? Does He love animals if He provides no salvation for them?
I want to say that God loves ALL LIVING THINGS unconditionally. Self aware, thinking, deliberating beings among them. Unconditional love doesn’t necessarily entail salvation OR the absence of wrath, anger, and judgment (as others here have said).
Here’s a thought for you. What if God’s sustaining grace of ALL LIVING THINGS was a mode of God’s expressing unconditional love to EACH living thing in ITS particularity and ITS distinctiveness? Hmmm…
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Tom
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| Posted 8/4/2003 4:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Mephi: Answer: NO. There IS no other expression this love takes [mourning]. Why? Because to the extent that you believe that solidified beings in anti-love really CANNOT be brought back, there can be no true praying for restoration. That hope is gone. All you can mourn their current state and hope for the swiftness of their eventual end. Not only for their sakes but for others.
Tom: So, one necessariliy loves what one mourns? I mourn Satan's fall and loss, ergo this is an expression of love FOR Satan.
But I also mourn the existence of evil itself; its entrance into the world and the damage its done. Not just the people who have made evil choices. I mourn the existence of evil in our world.
Ergo I love evil?
Mephi: The main thing this does for me is to keep me from OBJECTIFYING my Enemy, Satan (or any OTHER enemy for that matter) We simply tend to use Satan (AND OTHERS) as scapegoats and whipping boys.
Tom: That's something I want to avoid also. I hope to be sucessful at it without loving Satan.
Mephi: What if God’s sustaining grace of ALL LIVING THINGS was a mode of God’s expressing unconditional love to EACH living thing in ITS particularity and ITS distinctiveness? Hmmm…
Tom: Now THIS is an interesting point. Yes. For God certainly does sustain Satan's existence. And if this sustaining action must be interpreted as an expression of "love" then God must love Satan. But what if this "sustaining" action in Satan's case is an expression of God's faithfulness to his covenant with creation? An irrevocable commitment to sustain given God's purposes in the world? Nothing more.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/4/2003 4:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
I would really like to see one person show where in the Bible it states that God's love is UNconditional.
You have the most interesting posts, John! | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/4/2003 5:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Ps. 34:11
Come, O children, listen to me;
I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
12 Which of you desires life,
and covets many days to enjoy good?
13 Keep your tongue from evil,
and your lips from speaking deceit.
14 Depart from evil, and do good;
seek peace, and pursue it.
15 The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,
and his ears are open to their cry.
16 The face of the LORD is against evildoers,
to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
17 When the righteous cry for help, the LORD hears,
and rescues them from all their troubles.
18 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted,
and saves the crushed in spirit.
19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous,
but the LORD rescues them from them all.
20 He keeps all their bones;
not one of them will be broken.
21 Evil brings death to the wicked,
and those who hate the righteous will be condemned.
22 The LORD redeems the life of his servants;
none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/4/2003 7:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
quote:
So, one necessariliy loves what one mourns? I mourn Satan's fall and loss, ergo this is an expression of love FOR Satan.
But I also mourn the existence of evil itself; its entrance into the world and the damage its done. Not just the people who have made evil choices. I mourn the existence of evil in our world.
Ergo I love evil?
No, Tom. I don’t think that you MOURN evil. You mourn the for the WORLD that evil has impacted. You probably HATE evil. As well you should. This is the point. Mourning, especially when it comes to persons, deals with truly FEELING the loss of that person. In this case, truly feeling how much Satan is really LOSING OUT by his choice.
***************************
Tom:
quote:
Now THIS is an interesting point. Yes. For God certainly does sustain Satan's existence. And if this sustaining action must be interpreted as an expression of "love" then God must love Satan. But what if this "sustaining" action in Satan's case is an expression of God's faithfulness to his covenant with creation? An irrevocable commitment to sustain given God's purposes in the world? Nothing more.
Obviously, it could be BOTH at the same time, yes? And that makes all the difference
****************************
Tom, I really want to know. What do you get PERSONALLY from refraining from saying that God loves Satan unconditionally? Seriously, I do want to know.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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One Love
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