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DLW
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   Posted 8/6/2003 6:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=2039620473&pt=Y

Not a reformed whore but a pillar of the early church?
dlw


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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One Love
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   Posted 8/6/2003 6:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Can't a reformed whore BE a pillar of the early church?

Ah, the transforming power of God...heh...


"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."

--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God

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DLW
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   Posted 8/6/2003 7:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal

Can't a reformed whore BE a pillar of the early church?

Ah, the transforming power of God...heh...



Yes, but there is no need to impugn her as such in the absence of evidence.

dlw


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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Tigress
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   Posted 8/6/2003 7:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
She was loved by Jesus, which helped her to overcome her old self. She let the Holy Spirit cleanse her and turn her into Christ's pure Bride. Once this happenned, there was no stopping her from sharing that love with the rest of the world.


Tigress Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

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DLW
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   Posted 8/6/2003 8:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress

She was loved by Jesus, which helped her to overcome her old self. She let the Holy Spirit cleanse her and turn her into Christ's pure Bride. Once this happenned, there was no stopping her from sharing that love with the rest of the world.



Sure, but from the scriptures we have no basis for believing that Mary Magdalene was the prostitute that reformed herself. The prostitute that wiped Jesus feet with her tears and expensive perfume was not given a name.

dlw


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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Blood Washed Heretic
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   Posted 8/6/2003 9:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'd never heard that Luther believed that she married Jesus, either.

That's the most shocking thing about that article for me...


In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love.

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DLW
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   Posted 8/6/2003 9:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by Blood Washed Heretic

I'd never heard that Luther believed that she married Jesus, either.

That's the most shocking thing about that article for me...



Congrads on your fiftieth post, BWH.

In at the movies, I describe my reaction to "Road to War" the HBO movie of the LBJ's presidential administration and how they went to war.

dlw


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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Tigress
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   Posted 8/6/2003 11:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I guess I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about her anyway. I highly doubt that any denominations that have held the traditional view about her that the article describes would ever change their position at this point. If the parishoners of these denominations don't like the traditional view, they'll surely just go to a denomination that does. That's been the typical modern response to church controversy. I highly doubt that there's much more about Mary Magdalene to understand than what the Bible already states, regardless of the so-called "new findings" that are being discussed. The traditional view isn't one that's ever offended me or stopped me from believing that women couldn't be church leaders. I believe that if they couldn't at that time, it was cultural.


Tigress Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

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DLW
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   Posted 8/6/2003 12:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by Blood Washed Heretic

I'd never heard that Luther believed that she married Jesus, either.

That's the most shocking thing about that article for me...



Well I think its good to remember that Luther was a sex-starved monk and so that may have biased his views.

And of course even if she wasn't a prostitute that doesn't mean she couldn't be hot like Monica Bellucci!Evil

dlw


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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honorman
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   Posted 8/6/2003 7:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sex-starved monk who was married...
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Tigress
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   Posted 8/7/2003 11:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by DLW

quote:
Originally posted by Blood Washed Heretic

I'd never heard that Luther believed that she married Jesus, either.

That's the most shocking thing about that article for me...



Well I think its good to remember that Luther was a sex-starved monk and so that may have biased his views.

And of course even if she wasn't a prostitute that doesn't mean she couldn't be hot like Monica Bellucci!Evil

dlw



How does being "sex-starved" have anything to do with Luther believing Mary Magdalene and Jesus married each other?

And what does being "hot" have to do with anything? If Jesus had married a woman it would not have been because of her looks.


Tigress Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

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DLW
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   Posted 8/9/2003 7:26 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress

quote:
Originally posted by DLW

quote:
Originally posted by Blood Washed Heretic

I'd never heard that Luther believed that she married Jesus, either.

That's the most shocking thing about that article for me...



Well I think its good to remember that Luther was a sex-starved monk and so that may have biased his views.

And of course even if she wasn't a prostitute that doesn't mean she couldn't be hot like Monica Bellucci!Evil

dlw



How does being "sex-starved" have anything to do with Luther believing Mary Magdalene and Jesus married each other?


Okay, a former "sex-starved" monk who became married. Apparently, Luther saw nothing sinful or as less holy for one to marry. As such, there would be nothing wrong for Jesus to marry.

quote:
And what does being "hot" have to do with anything? If Jesus had married a woman it would not have been because of her looks.



Duh!
dlw


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/9/2003 1:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Artist: Georges de la Tour
Title: The Penitent Magdalen
Date: c. 1640


(Bigger) www.annenberg.usc.edu/asc/projects/comm544/library/images/061bg.jpg

That's a nice Western view. I love this painting!!!
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/9/2003 1:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/feasts-and-saints/october/oct-17.html

    The Transfer of the relics of Righteous Lazarus of the Four-Days, Bishop of Kiteia on Cyprus, was made in the 9th Century. Righteous Saint Lazarus, the brother of Martha and Mary (Magdalene), lived in the village of Bethany, not far from Jerusalem. During His earthly life the Lord Jesus Christ often visited the house of Lazarus, whom He much loved and called His friend (Jn 11:3,11), and when Lazarus had died and lain four days already in the grave, the Lord resurrected him from the dead (Jn 11:1-44). (The Raising of Lazarus is remembered by the Church on the Saturday of the Sixth Week of Great Lent - "Lazarus Saturday".)


INTERESTING!
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/9/2003 2:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
St. Mary Magdalene, "Equal to the Apostles,"
who is honored with a festival on July 22.


(Larger image at www.oca.org/pages/dwp/large.asp?saintid=102070)

Here in hymn form is a pious poetic fiction (but fiction that tells the truth).

quote:
    Kontakion in tone 3

    Standing before the
    Cross of the Savior,
    Suffering with the
    Mother of the Lord,
    The most glorious Mary
    Magdalene offered
    praise with tears
    .
    She cried out: What is
    this strange wonder?
    He who holds the
    whole
    creation in His hand
    chooses to suffer:
    Glory, O Lord to Your
    power!



    Kontakion in tone 4

    When God, who is
    transcendent in
    essence,
    Came with flesh into
    the world, O
    Myrrhbearer,
    He received you as
    a true disciple, for you
    turned all your love
    toward Him
    ;
    Henceforth you would
    yourself work many
    healings.
    Now that you have
    passed into heaven,
    never cease to
    intercede for the world!



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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/9/2003 2:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
The Holy Myrhh-Bearer Equal-to-the-Apostles Mary Magdalene. On the banks of Lake Genesareth (Galilee), between the cities of Capharnum and Tiberias, was situated the small city of Magdala, the remains of which have survived to our day. Now at this place stands only the small village of Mejhdel.

In Magdala sometime formerly the woman was born and grew up, whose name has entered forever into the Gospel account. The Gospel tells us nothing about the youthful years of Mary, but tradition informs us, that Mary from Magdala was young and pretty, and led a sinful life. It says in the Gospels, that the Lord expelled seven devils from Mary. From the moment of healing Mary led a new life. She became a true disciple of the Saviour.

The Gospel relates that Mary followed after the Lord, when He went with the Apostles through the cities and villages of Judea and Galilee preaching about the Kingdom of God. Together with the pious women -- Joanna, wife of Khuza (steward of Herod), Susanna and others, she served Him from her own possessions (Lk 8:1-3) and undoubtedly, shared with the Apostles the evangelic tasks, in common with the other women. The Evangelist Luke, evidently, has her in view together with the other women, stating that at the moment of the Procession of Christ onto Golgotha, when after the Scourging He took on Himself the heavy Cross, collapsing under its weight, the women followed after Him weeping and wailing, but He consoled them. The Gospel relates that Mary Magdalene was present on Golgotha at the moment of the Lord's Crucifixion. While all the disciples of the Saviour ran away, she remained fearlessly at the Cross together with the Mother of God and the Apostle John.

The evangelists enumerate among those standing at the Cross moreover also the mother of the Apostle James the Less, and Salome, and other women followers of the Lord from Galilee itself, but all mention first Mary Magdalene; but the Apostle John aside the Mother of God, names only her and Mary Cleopas. This indicates how much she stood out from amidst all the women gathered round the Lord.

She was faithful to Him not only in the days of His Glory, but also at the moment of His Extreme Humiliation and Insult. As the Evangelist Matthew relates, she was present at the Burial of the Lord. Before her eyes Joseph and Nikodemos went out to the tomb with His lifeless Body; before her eyes they covered over the entrance to the cave with a large stone, behind which went the Sun of Life...

Faithful to the Law in which she was trained, Mary together with the other women stayed all the following day at rest, because it was the great day of the Sabbath, coinciding in that year with the Feast of Passover. But all the rest of the peaceful day the women succeeded in storing up aromatics, to go at dawn Sunday to the Grave of the Lord and Teacher and according to the custom of the Jews to anoint His Body with funereal aromatics.

It is necessary to suggest that, having agreed to go on the first day of the week to the Tomb early in the morning, the holy women, having gone separately on Friday evening to their own homes, did not have the possibility to meet together with one another on Saturday, and how only at the break of dawn the following day did they go to the Sepulchre, not all together, but each from their own house.

The Evangelist Matthew writes, that the women came to the grave at dawn, or as the Evangelist Mark expresses, extremely early before the rising of the sun; the Evangelist John, as it were elaborating upon these, says that Mary came to the grave so early that it was still dark. Obviously, she waited impatiently for the end of night, but it was not daybreak when round about darkness still ruled -- she ran there where lay the Body of the Lord.

Now then, Mary went to the Tomb alone. Seeing the stone pushed away from the cave, she rushed away in fear thither where dwelt the close Apostles of Christ -- Peter and John. Hearing the strange message that the Lord was gone from the tomb, both Apostles ran to the tomb and, seeing the shroud and winding cloths, they were amazed. The Apostles went and told no one nothing, but Mary stood about the entrance to the gloomy tomb and wept. Here in this dark tomb still so recently lay her lifeless Lord. Wanting proof that the tomb really was empty, she went down to it -- and here a strange light suddenly prevailed upon her. She saw two angels in white garments, the one sitting at the head, the other at the foot, where the Body of Jesus had been placed. She heard the question: "Woman, why weepest thou?" -- she answered them with the words which she had said to the Apostles: "They have taken my Lord, and I do not know, where they have put Him". Having said this, she turned around, and at this moment saw the Risen Jesus standing about the grave, but she did not recognise Him.

He asked Mary: "Woman, why weepest thou? Whom dost thou seek?" She answered thinking that she was seeing the gardener: "Sir, if thou hast taken him, tell where thou hast put Him, and I will reclaim Him."

But at this moment she recognised the Lord's voice, a voice which was known from the day He healed her. This was the voice in those days and years, when together with the other pious women she followed the Lord through all the cities and places where His preaching was heard. She gave a joyful shout "Rabbi" that means Teacher.

Respect and love, fondness and deep veneration, a feeling of thankfulness and recognition at His Splendour as great Teacher -- all came together in this single outcry. She was able to say nothing more and she threw herself down at the feet of her Teacher, to wash them with tears of joy. But the Lord said to her: "Touch me not, for I am still not ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and tell them: "I ascend to My Father and your Father and to My God and to your God."

She came to herself and again ran to the Apostles, so as to do the will of Him sending her to preach. Again she ran into the house, where the Apostles stayed still in dismay, and announced to them the joyous message "I have seen the Lord!" This was the first preaching in the world about the Resurrection.

The Apostles were obliged to proclaim the Glad Tidings to the world, but she proclaimed it to the Apostles themselves...

Holy Scripture does not tell us about the life of Mary Magdalene after the Resurrection of Christ, but it is impossible to doubt, that if in the terrifying minutes of Christ's Crucifixion she was the foot of His Cross with His All-Pure Mother and John, undoubtedly, she stayed with them during all the happier time after the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ. Thus in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles Saint Luke writes: that all the Apostles with one mind stayed in prayer and supplication, with certain women and Mary the Mother of Jesus and His brethren.

Holy Tradition testifies, that when the Apostles departed from Jerusalem for preaching to all the ends of the earth, then together with them also went Mary Magdalene to preach. A daring woman, whose heart was full of reminiscence of the Resurrection, she went beyond her native borders and set off to preach in pagan Rome. And everywhere she proclaimed to people about Christ and His Teaching, and when many did not believe that Christ is risen, she repeated to them what she had said to the Apostles on the radiant morning of the Resurrection: "I have seen the Lord!" With this preaching she made the rounds of all Italy.

Tradition relates, that in Italy Mary Magdalene visited the Emperor Tiberias (14-37 AD) and proclaimed to him about Christ's Resurrection. According to tradition, she took him a red egg as a symbol of the Resurrection, a symbol of new life with the words: "Christ is Risen!" Then she told the emperor about this, that in his Province of Judea was the innocently condemned Jesus the Galilean, an holy man, a maker or miracles, powerful before God and all mankind, executed on the instigation of the Jewish High-Priests and the sentence affirmed by the procurator named by Tiberias, Pontius Pilate.

Mary repeated the words of the Apostles, that believing in the Redemption of Christ from the vanity of life is not as with perishable silver or gold, but rather the precious Blood of Christ is like a spotless and pure Lamb.

Thanks to Mary Magdalene the custom to give each other paschal eggs on the day of the Luminous Resurrection of Christ spread among Christians over all the world. On one ancient hand-written Greek ustav, written on parchment, kept in the monastery library of Saint Athanasias near Thessalonika (Solunea), is an established prayer read on the day of Holy Pascha for the blessing of eggs and cheese, in which it is indicated, that the Hegumen (Abbot) in passing out the blessed eggs says to the brethren: "Thus have we received from the holy fathers, who preserved this custom from the very time of the holy apostles, wherefore the holy equal-unto-the-apostles Mary Magdalene first showed believers the example of this joyful offering".

Mary Magdalene continued her preaching in Italy and in the city of Rome itself. Evidently, the Apostle Paul has precisely her in view in his Epistle to the Romans (16, 6), where together with other ascetics of evangelic preaching he mentions Mary (Mariam), who as he expresses "has done much for us". Evidently, she extensively served the Church in its means of subsistence and its difficulties, being exposed to dangers, and sharing with the Apostles the labours of preaching.

According to Church tradition, she remained in Rome until the arrival of the Apostle Paul, and for two more years still, following his departure from Rome after the first court judgment upon him. From Rome Saint Mary Magdalene, already bent with age, moved to Ephesus where unceasingly laboured the holy Apostle John, who with her wrote the first 20 Chapters of his Gospel. There the saint finished her earthly life and was buried.


Her holy relics were transferred in the IX Century to the capital of the Byzantine Empire -- Constantinople, and placed in the monastery Church of Saint Lazarus. In the era of the Crusader campaigns they were transferred to Italy and placed at Rome under the altar of the Lateran Cathedral. Part of the relics of Mary Magdalene are located in France near Marseilles, where over them at the foot of a steep mountain is erected in her honour a splendid church.

The Orthodox Church honours the holy memory of Saint Mary Magdalene -- the woman, called by the Lord Himself from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God.

Formerly immersed in sin and having received healing, she sincerely and irrevocably began a new life and never wavered from the path. Mary loved the Lord Who called her to a new life. She was faithful to Him not only then -- when He having expelled from her the seven demons and surrounded by enthusiastic crowds passed through the cities and villages of Palestine, winning for Himself the glory of a miracle-worker -- but also then when all the disciples in fear deserted Him and He, humiliated and crucified, hung in torment upon the Cross. This is why the Lord, knowing her faithfulness, appeared to her first, and esteemed her worthy to be first proclaiming His Resurrection.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/9/2003 2:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.


from above:
quote:
Tradition relates, that in Italy Mary Magdalene visited the Emperor Tiberias (14-37 AD) and proclaimed to him about Christ's Resurrection. According to tradition, she took him a red egg as a symbol of the Resurrection, a symbol of new life with the words: "Christ is Risen!" Then she told the emperor about this. . .Thanks to Mary Magdalene the custom to give each other paschal eggs on the day of the Luminous Resurrection of Christ spread among Christians over all the world. On one ancient hand-written Greek ustav, written on parchment, kept in the monastery library of Saint Athanasias near Thessalonika (Solunea), is an established prayer read on the day of Holy Pascha for the blessing of eggs and cheese, in which it is indicated, that the Hegumen (Abbot) in passing out the blessed eggs says to the brethren: "Thus have we received from the holy fathers, who preserved this custom from the very time of the holy apostles, wherefore the holy equal-unto-the-apostles Mary Magdalene first showed believers the example of this joyful offering".
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/9/2003 2:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

How many here remember the cracking

of red paschal eggs in

My Big Fat Greek Wedding?


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/9/2003 2:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here is Mary's RESUME:



Experienced!
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DLW
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   Posted 8/9/2003 4:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, she sortof looks hot in the above pictures.
Blush
dlw


Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes."

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/10/2003 2:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Respect your elders, DLW.

quote:
Formerly immersed in sin and having received healing, she sincerely and irrevocably began a new life and never wavered from the path. Mary loved the Lord Who called her to a new life. She was faithful to Him not only then -- when He having expelled from her the seven demons and surrounded by enthusiastic crowds passed through the cities and villages of Palestine, winning for Himself the glory of a miracle-worker -- but also then when all the disciples in fear deserted Him and He, humiliated and crucified, hung in torment upon the Cross. This is why the Lord, knowing her faithfulness, appeared to her first, and esteemed her worthy to be first proclaiming His Resurrection.
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/12/2003 7:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It doesn't fit with the kind of litergy posted above.

I remember being very moved by this image a few years ago.

But I don't identify with it so much any more--though it is very powerful.

I think the difference in my response might be that this sculpture focuses so much on the "gothic emotion" of a particular kind of religious experience, while the liturgies and icons focus on the Grace of God IN her--the same that is in us. And through the liturgy and icon it is God rather than humanity that is glorified.



What do you think?


"Time is the freedom to love."
(from Ware's "The Inner Kingdom")

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/12/2003 7:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's another example of gothic emotion:



www.magdalene.org/lamentation/donatello.htm

(Lots of grief, twisting bodies, and gesticulations.)
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/12/2003 7:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel

[/list]


This crucifixion shows sorrow (notice John).
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 8/12/2003 7:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here Mary Magdalene is shown not as she was at any moment in her life; but shown as that life that was once "now/now yet" once fullfilled as reality. (Shown in Glory.)






And I think that this LAST icon of Mary is interesting for the vessel she carries.



Note in a post above the tradition that identifies Mary Magdalene as the SAME Mary that was Martha's sister. THAT gives additional impact to her continual impulse to serve...serve...serve...
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