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Archibaldo
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 32
| Posted 7/23/2003 10:01 AM (GMT -6) |   | Not at all a scholar looking to debate this subject, but i am a student looking to understand thoughts about this subject.
What are the views held in this site with regards to the rewards we can individually recieve in heaven, and also the beliefs of the different levels of heaven?
My knowledge is limited, my intrigue is not.
God Bless,
Nate
"anything less than passion is dog crap." -Paul Hurckman | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/23/2003 10:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Not at all a scholar looking to debate this subject, but i am a student looking to understand thoughts about this subject.
What are the views held in this site with regards to the rewards we can individually recieve in heaven, and also the beliefs of the different levels of heaven?
My knowledge is limited, my intrigue is not.
God Bless,
Nate
Nate, there are so many links here on this topic I'm sure they've mentioned the topic before.
But I'll let others connect you to the "right" answer.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
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We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
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Fleetwood
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/23/2003 10:58 AM (GMT -6) | | Levels? I dont' believe there are "levels" of heaven. The Mormons believe in levels though. They believe there are 3 levels: one for the most righteous, one for the not-so righteous, one for those who never heard. They believe that the ones at the lower levels can move up levels in heaven by good deeds (after death, mind you). Their belief is that hell is only for truly evil people. Being an evangelical Christian, I believe there is one heaven for all who are saved, whether they were extremely righteous or only recently saved. That theif on the cross will be there and so will Paul and Peter. Worshipping God together. Since we will be in the presence of God in heaven, I believe that indicates one heaven. I do not believe there is any indication that God "visits" different heavens (levels). No verses for now but there are many verses on heaven and rewards. Good question.
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Archibaldo
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| Posted 7/23/2003 11:06 AM (GMT -6) | | As i said, my knowledge on the subject is limited. I know that the rewards premise is biblical, but i don't necessarily understand it. As for the levels, that question stems from rick joyner's book the final quest.
I read the book two or three years ago. I just remember there being different levels or territories of heaven that were not accessible depending on what you did during your life.
God Bless
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DLW
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Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/23/2003 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | I think you are thinking of the writings of Dante. As in Dante's Inferno. This literary piece is speculation borrowing more from Greek Mythology than the Bible.
But as for the levels of Heaven, the one on top actually has sex. You know just for extra incentive for us to be holy and what-not.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
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Fleetwood
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/23/2003 12:12 PM (GMT -6) | | You're talking about the Mormon level, eh? Yes, there is sex and procreation. Women will continue to give birth in heaven in the Mormon doctrine of heaven. The more births, the more righteousnes. Each woman will have her own little heaven in which her delight will be producing children.
This belief reflects itself in the Mormon's earthly life in which the more children produced, the more holy and good the family is considered. It is shameful for Mormon families if they do not have many children and grandchildren as well. While I find it to be applaudable that they value children and family as they do, it is not a Biblical teaching that the procreation of children equates to holiness and righteousness. Clearly, Biblically, Jesus is righteous. We are not. Our righteousness comes from Him and the blood He shed on our behalf. It does not come from procreation. While children are a blessing and in my opinion, the more the merrier, they certainly do not "up" your rightous points.
Brother, you need to watch out for Rick Joyner. You mention him and I don't know how you feel about him, but he's got unsound doctrine. In fact, his ideas of ongoing revelation and prophecy resemble the “continuing revelation” of the Mormons.
Here is one peculiar quote by Joyner himself that I find to be almost hilarious, but not so hilarious as this man truly believes this to be truth: "“In the spring of 1995, Bob Jones, a prophetic friend, told a number of us that the Atlanta Braves baseball team was going to win the World Series that year as a message for the church in America. This prophecy was fulfilled, and there indeed was a message in it. ... I think it was also significant that it was David Justice who hit that home run. He is a black man, and I do expect young, black ‘Davids’ to arise and slay the spiritual Goliaths who have been intimidating and holding back the armies of God in America. ... In the spring of 1996, Bob Jones received a word that the Braves would not win the World Series again that year and that this would be a message. When I was offered tickets to go to Game Five of the 1996 World Series in Atlanta, I knew that the Lord was going to show me something important. I was not disappointed.”
Here is a quote from an article about Joyner: "There is no doubt that Joyner has aligned with the growing chorus of those who malign and destroy biblical authority and set themselves above the Word of God. Their agenda seems to be — get rid of Scripture and scriptural authority since something new and more direct has come. This they do by exulting their self-proclaimed “prophecies” as a way of finding truth and direction today. Even though they may drop in a line at times about following the Scriptures, it seems to be only gratuitous against the larger agenda."
Another quote on Joyner: "Even when Joyner does handle the Word of God, he distorts it terribly and comes up with weird subjective interpretations. The interpretations are esoteric, off the mark and ignore the cultural setting and context. Everything is twisted to fit into the Dominion message. His ideas have been variously labeled as Joel’s Army, Kingdom Now and Dominion Theology, although it is more gnostic ramblings than theology. So much of the repackaged Latter Rain teaching demotes Christ and the Scriptures and deifies man."
Pentecostal minister and host of the Open Bible Dialogue radio broadcast, Joseph Chambers says of Joyner’s books:
“Reading his material is similar to reading New Age materials. His approach is to take anything in Scripture and make it mean anything that suits his theological aims. There is no faithfulness to established facts of interpretation. It is a smorgasbord of ideas loosely connected with the generous use of out-of-text Scripture to prove his point.”
Your best bet on finding an answer to your question will be through a study of Scripture.
As to the rewards aspect of heaven, it certainly is somewhat mysterious since the Bible speaks of rewards, but not in terms of how much, what kind, when and where. We know there will be no tears or sadness in heaven, but if my neighbor gets a great big reward and I get a tiny one, will I be sad or envy? It cannot be possible since we know there is no sin in heaven. It certainly is an intriguing question.
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Fleetwood
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Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/23/2003 12:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Nate, Joyner has also stated: "“True faith can only come with spiritual vision” in his book entitled "There Were Two Trees in the Garden."
The Bible says: "“Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God” (Romans 10:17)
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shell
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 7/23/2003 12:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
You're talking about the Mormon level, eh? Yes, there is sex and procreation. Women will continue to give birth in heaven in the Mormon doctrine of heaven. The more births, the more righteousnes. Each woman will have her own little heaven in which her delight will be producing children.
Not all women find pregnancy to be heavenly Being pregnant and giving birth for eternity would be my own personal Hell
Shell
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/23/2003 12:19 PM (GMT -6) | | You know I was not being serious about the levels in heaven thing and we had a controversial link a while back on whethere there was sex in heaven.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
Roberto Benigni in
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 7/23/2003 4:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Not at all a scholar looking to debate this subject, but i am a student looking to understand thoughts about this subject.
What are the views held in this site with regards to the rewards we can individually recieve in heaven, and also the beliefs of the different levels of heaven?
My knowledge is limited, my intrigue is not.
God Bless,
Nate
Hi Nate,
And welcome to the board!
I would echo Fleetwood's comments about Joyner's books. I have read most of them myself, am from a Pentecostal background, and can positively say the Joyner's allegorical approach to Scripture is quite unsound.
That said, I do find that the Bible teaches degrees of rewards (not "levels," though) we may receive in heaven for service here below, as well as degrees of punishment in hell. Jesus refers to some being beaten with many stripes and some with few stripes, as well as "it shall be more tolerable in the day of judgement for Sodom than" the cities who generally rejected his ministry.
To whom much is given, much is required. Their degree of punishment depends on the degree of knowledge of right and wrong that they possessed.
The somewhat ironic (but in fact logical) thing about the rewards in heaven one might receive is that after we receive them, we will cast them at Jesus' feet, giving all glory to Him:
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."
In other words, any good we may do, we will in the end have to give God the glory, for without Him we can do nothing good.
Edited by - John Earp on 07/23/2003 10:03:30 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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¡Que Payaso!
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 108
| Posted 7/23/2003 6:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Nate,
Positions of rulership and authority are mentioned in the NT to be rewarded to the faithful. Whether these are in the millennial kingdom or in heaven probably depends on your eschatology. Just maybe Dante got his ideas from somewhere else.
Anyway, without turning to Joyner, you can find teaching on rewards in Joseph Dillow's The Reign of the Servant Kings (Schoettle, 3rd ed., 2002), the writings of G. H. Lang, and Bob Wilkin's The Road to Reward. Erwin Lutzer has a short, simple book out entitled Your Eternal Reward as does Bruce Wilkinson, called The Life God Rewards. The last two might not have the exegetical meat you are looking for.
See also articles published in the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society [JOTGES] at www.faithalone.org/journal/index.html. For one example of such an article, see www.faithalone.org/journal/1991b/Rewards.html.
There, that should keep you busy  .
Payaso 
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/24/2003 2:17 AM (GMT -6) | | | I'll keep this simple. My contribution will be what i've read by Greek Orthodox authors. "Levels" are interesting when pertaining to those still alive at the time -- like the Apostle Paul. In that case the GO author says that UNLIKE the Western imagination of levels being at a level is NOT a permanent thing. You can go "up," but you will also come "down." They are real, and a drawing ever closer to God; but this side of 'eternity' (on'es home-going) they are not permanent. They are not even necessarily a good idea to be sought peramanently, as one can become deluded by anything as a substitute for devotion to the Lord: So, seeking the lord can become an idol in itself. | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/24/2003 4:34 AM (GMT -6) | | 1Cor. 3:10-15 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building on it. Each builder must choose with care how to build on it. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ.
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done.
If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
The last two verses clearly show that whatever passes through "the fire" is rewarded, whatever does not is simply lost. And some will be saved, "but only as through fire" (an expression of getting out of a burning house but loosing everything except your life in the process).
Most of Jesus' eschatological parables imply gradations. "Greatest" in the kingodm, "least" in the kingdom, etc...
And, Paul talks even about BELIEVERS coming before "the judgment seat of Christ" (2 Cor 5:10; Rom 14:10) -- which I take to be the same thing as the fire.
Saddly, most of this was thrown out with the Protestant Reformation because of Luther's over reaction against Purgatory. Consequently, Protestants generally came to assume that upon death everyone is instantaneously and equally perfected, receiving an equal reward. And this led directly to the conclusion that sanctification and discipleship are optional features of the Christian life. And THAT explains ALOT about the Protestant Christianity of TODAY.
I actually believe there's hints that there's a lot more to the next "age" (aionian) than simply two flat levels, heaven and hell.
Good question
Greg
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laplace
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 7/24/2003 4:44 AM (GMT -6) | | Archibaldo,
I agree with prior posts that there are not "levels" like the Mormons believe which depend upon things such as getting married, becoming a priest, etc. Levels imply that there will not be one community of Believers but many, and that one cannot visit someone in a higher/lower level. The Bible gives no indication that this separation will take place.
However, the Bible does clearly state about varying degrees of reward in Heaven just as there are going to be varying degrees of punishment in Hell. There is text about different "crowns" a Believer can receive, however, there is almost nothing about what these rewards will translate out to. I believe them to be more symbolic than actual pieces of jewelry.
Probably the best analogy I can give is that everyone who is saved has "graduated" from school. All they had to do was accept Christ as Lord and Savior and they "pass". However, at graduation, additional glory will be given to those who put forth that extra effort in different areas. Maybe academics, maybe athletics, maybe humanitarian or student government contributions (make up your own Divine translations).
One issue unresolved though is how people will feel towards each other knowing that some accomplished more for the Kingdom than others. Obviously there will be no envy. Perhaps we will all feel content with the rewards we get because these rewards imply responsibilities in Heaven (yes, we will be doing work in Heaven, but it will be fulfilling work), and we will feel perfectly contented with what we can handle. Another earthly anaology could be those who are perfectly content with their blue collar job (not saying that these jobs are inferior, but I need a viewpoint which as a society we understand) and wouldn't want the additional tasks of being the President.
But, I think we ought not to put too much emphasis on these rewards as motivations for doing good. When you truly love someone, you do it without thought of reward, and that is what God wishes from us.
"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment | | Back to Top | | |
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Archibaldo
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Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 32
| Posted 7/24/2003 5:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks to all who have posted so far.
Don't worry about my "allegience" to Joyner. I read his books with the same care i would read your books with had you published one. His books are his "experiene" and its validity and source could be easily debated, but as far as opening my eyes to new questions, it did. I don't understand all about the rewards.
My use of the word levels was apparently the wrong choice. I'm not aiming at differen levels of heaven per say, but more along the lines of access. I am trying to understand the thought that we will all be a part of the same community (level) but might have different levels of access. As on earth, i don't have access to say the white house, will there be different levels of "access" attained based on the rewards we earn?
Ramble
Nate
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/24/2003 7:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi,
Please forgive me but I'm "VISUAL."
quote:
gREG
Most of Jesus' eschatological parables imply gradations. "Greatest" in the kingodm, "least" in the kingdom, etc...
. . .
...Consequently, Protestants generally came to assume that upon death everyone is instantaneously and equally perfected, receiving an equal reward. And this led directly to the conclusion that sanctification and discipleship are optional features of the Christian life. ...
Being "visual" I latched on with ease to the "imagery" in C.S. Lewis' book "The Great Divorce." Its about a bus ride to heaven, and the experiences of those who got off the bus upon arival and began walking to the Great City of light; and the reasons why some people got back on the bus and wanted to leave.
Two of the visualizations Lewis provides for the awesomness of heaven -- approaching God's presence (I think) -- are: (1) Those who first arive are too 'light' to push the tips of the grass-blades over, and consequently endure a bit of mild pain in their first minutes of walking towards the city, until their presence before the light adds to their substantiality. And (2), the initial pain in their eyes until they adjust to the intensity of the Light.
Intersting "images." And as Greg Boyd said: Gradations.
In the history of the Church, there were some like Origin who argued that there were only one kind of angelic nature, and that their jobs and proximity to the 'throne' varied according to merit. Orthodoxy does not accept that. St. John of Damascus said that the various kinds of angels were created to the tasks they have.
It is US, in all of the Creation, who have the priestly job of being a mediator between the physical and spiritual worlds. Christ is our head, and the restorer of the image of mankind to that priestly role. And IN HIM humanity will worship God in that unique role that even angels cannot perform!
See: www.arimathea.co.uk/heavl.htm | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/24/2003 7:27 AM (GMT -6) | | | Hey, Greg. Wonderful post (above) about REWARD and LOSS. | | Back to Top | | |
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¡Que Payaso!
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 108
| Posted 7/24/2003 2:47 PM (GMT -6) | | SUPERSTAR PotOonWheel,
This subject deserves a lot more than what I can give to it, but I wanted to respond to your first note in this thread.
First, Jesus himself said, “Don't store up treasures here on earth, where they can be eaten by moths and get rusty, and where thieves break in and steal. Store your treasures in heaven, where they will never become moth-eaten or rusty and where they will be safe from thieves. Wherever your treasure is, there your heart and thoughts will also be” (Matt 6:19-21, NLT). This is a command! We are supposed to, we are expected to, seek eternal rewards. Not doing so would be disobedience.
Second, you said, “So, seeking the lord can become an idol in itself.” My impression from Scripture is that seeking the Lord is always set in diametrical opposition to idolatry. If we call “seeking the Lord” idolatry, then I would have to say this is the only kind of idolatry that we ought to practice. Seeking the Lord is a good thing!
I like Laplace’s idea of the graduation where additional honors are conferred. Some will no doubt experience regret at lost opportunities, but in the end, there will be rejoicing when all have their diplomas in hand.
However, Laplace also wrote, “But, I think we ought not to put too much emphasis on these rewards as motivations for doing good. When you truly love someone, you do it without thought of reward, and that is what God wishes from us.” There is tremendous emphasis in the NT on rewards. How can we put too much?
I think rewards are a powerful motivation. What is more, the rewards which are offered in the NT are earned precisely because you love others. If you are seeking them at the expense of others, you will never see them. Rewards are not a selfish motivation because to earn them, one must put the needs of others first, humble themselves, love others, etc. We are all motivated by different things. If rewards are an incentive for us to love others and help those in need, to humble ourselves and seek the Lord, I don’t see how they can be construed in any way as bad or undesirable. We ought desire these rewards with everything that is in us. Jesus himself after all placed the offer on the table.
Payaso
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins
Edited by - payaso on 07/24/2003 7:49:00 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/24/2003 5:49 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Payaso
I wanted to respond to your first note in this thread.
First, Jesus himself said, “Don't store up treasures here on earth, where they can be eaten by moths and get rusty, and where thieves break in and steal. Store your treasures in heaven, where they will never become moth-eaten or rusty and where they will be safe from thieves. Wherever your treasure is, there your heart and thoughts will also be” (Matt 6:19-21, NLT). This is a command! We are supposed to, we are expected to, seek eternal rewards. Not doing so would be disobedience.
I think we agreed on this.
quote:
Payaso
Second, you said, “So, seeking the lord can become an idol in itself.” My impression from Scripture is that seeking the Lord is always set in diametrical opposition to idolatry. If we call “seeking the Lord” idolatry, then I would have to say this is the only kind of idolatry that we ought to practice. Seeking the Lord is a good thing!
Oooops. My subtlty was missed. I was talking about when "trying to act spiritual" ends up deceiving someone, when seaking after spirits is delution. I'v hear that it does happen. I've read where those counceling young monks actually tell them not to overdo it! Trying to be more spiritual than one is really capable of at the time invites deception. And like any good sales job, the more one wants to believe the "line" of the deception the more convinced the poor soul is. Understand. (Hope so; or else, oh well.) | | Back to Top | | |
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¡Que Payaso!
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 108
| Posted 7/24/2003 6:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, the subtlety was completely missed. My apologies. But try to see this from my perspective: I have to read 3000+ posts so if I miss a subtlety every now and then, I hope you will be gracious.
Payaso
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." - Bilbo Baggins | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/25/2003 1:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Payaso: I have to read 3000+ posts so if I miss a subtlety every now and then, I hope you will be gracious.
I am sure that in my vacant head there is space that you can "sub-let." I'm sure not using it!
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Laplace
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Total Posts : 138
| Posted 7/25/2003 6:53 AM (GMT -6) | | payaso,
To clarify my position on not using too much empahsis on rewards I was not stating that we should not look into our self interest. Certainly, positive (and negative) reinforcements are perfectly appropriate as well as effective in governing behavior. Once again, if everyone went to Heaven or Hell then there would be no motivation to do good (good and evil in and of itself would be meaningless to us).
What I was getting at though was that by definition, love is doing something for someone else without EXPECTING anything in return (unconditional). One does something for another because it is interested in the well-being of another and the virtue of good.
So when I said not "too much emphasis" I meant in context that ideally our doing good for God should not be to expect a carrot at the end of a stick. This is the type of accusation Satan put against Job. He claimed Job is being virtuous only because of the rewards. Take away the rewards (and inflict punishment for no rationale) and Job won't love you any more. However, as God said essentially at the end of the book, "Look Job, it's NOT about you. It's about me. If I created all these things, can't you trust me to be Sovereign and look out for you too?"
Therefore, it's more a matter of our heart attitude than our external actions (not saying actions mean little). As Jesus said, when we are judged before Him our attitudes should not be, "OK. I've slaved for you and gave up all this 'fun' for you. Now where's my cut?" but rather, "We have only done our duty."
Hope this clears things up.
"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment | | Back to Top | | |
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