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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > virture of hate | Forum Quick Jump
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/3/2003 12:21 PM (GMT -6) |   | Excellant article on hate...http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0302/articles/soloveichik.html
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 6/3/2003 12:34 PM (GMT -6) | | So do you agree with the Rabbi? I agree, it is an interesting article- and it pretty clearly shows how Christianity is a religion in which Christ did all the work, we are not worthy, and we cannot save ourselves. Judaism emphasizes that people can become morally worthy and in essence, follow the law and save themselves.
Quite a dichotomy. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/3/2003 12:35 PM (GMT -6) | | No, I wouldn't say I agree with him. I just think its a ver good article.
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 6/3/2003 12:39 PM (GMT -6) | | | I just don't see how anyone can read the New Testament and believe that hatred for anyone is OK. Hatred of evil actions, yes, but the person, no. Love your enemies and pray for them that curse you, don't hate them, is the message of Christ. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/4/2003 6:18 AM (GMT -6) | | I tend to believe that the Old Testament is just as much scripture as the New Testament and that God doesn't change. As such, in my reading, such attitudes such as yours RD are not as cut and dry.
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 6/4/2003 6:38 AM (GMT -6) | | | Yes, God's essence does not change. But the OT is primarily about him relating to his chosen people, the Israelites, and how they were under the law. Christ changed that - as Paul said, we as Christians are no longer under the law. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/4/2003 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Regardless of who God was dealing with in the OT, he dealt with them in a certain way and we must come to grips with that not by thumping it with the NT but trying to see the full picture of who God is.
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/4/2003 10:14 AM (GMT -6) | | I think that, while God does not change, our understandings of God do change, generally for the better. As such, there are several passages of the OT, that I interpret in light of our fuller revelation of God that we get from the NT.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/4/2003 11:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Again, one still has to come to grips with the "hard" passages, regardless of what the New Testament says, unless one wants to pick and choose which passages one wants to believe.
If there is a Trinity and Jesus is part of it and the Old Testament is true, then Jesus ordered the destruction of entire civilizations. That is a fact, no matter what the "fuller" revelation of the New Testament is.
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 6/4/2003 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Is hate one of the fruits of the Spirit? I find many OT stories difficult to reconcile with the Christ of the NT - but even so, God used Israel to judge other nations. It was GOD doing the judging, Israel was the instrument.
How is this applicable to our behavior today? Again, vengeance is God's alone. I think we're treading on dangerous groud to extol the virtues of hate. Better to err on the side of compassion, humility, and love than to burn w/ anger and hatred.
The fundamentalist Muslims feel that they are right in their jihad, and have holy anger - and are causing much suffering b/c of it. Let God sort it out. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/4/2003 12:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Hate is one of the vegetables of the Spirit  .
Listen, part of coming to terms with this is accepting that the OT has many portraits of God that reflect the imperfect understandings of God by the writers of the OT.
Our conceptions of God do change over time and it is the task of theologians and biblical scholars to help us understand that. And, of course, if they have changed in the past then they can change in the present. I.e., with OVTheism rejection of some of the ontotheological concepts that were part of the Medieval Theological Synthesis or the writings of John Calvin or Augustine.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 06/04/2003 5:29:54 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/4/2003 7:36 PM (GMT -6) | | DLW: sounds pretty much like your a "picker and chooser" of the Old Testament. Red lights always go up for me when someone talks about the "inperfect" with regard to the Old Testament. Seems it just dropped a bit on the "infallible" list. Regardless, when scripture says that God commanded a certain country to be destroyed, its hard to imagine how that can be "imperfect." Unless of course you want to rewrite portions of the Old Testament. Then it wouldn't be "infallible," but what the heck.
BTW, I never said I agreed with the article, only that i thought it was good.
DLW, I would add though that what OVers are rejecting is an interpretation of scripture, not scripture itself. There is a great difference.
Edited by - honorman on 06/05/2003 12:39:57 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/4/2003 8:05 PM (GMT -6) | | When God ordered entire people groups to be destroyed (and even wiped out nearly all mankind in the Flood), He did the best possible thing that could be done, given the situation. Notice that God tells Abraham in Gen. 15 that it is not time for Abraham's seed to possess the promised land because, "the sins of the Amorites are not yet full."
This seems to me to be a common thread throughout the Bible--God only dispenses judgment as a last resort, and only when it will in fact improve the situation for all involved. In the case of the inhabitants of Canaan that God ordered Israel to destroy, who can seriously argue it would have been better for this "civilization" to continue? Even the babies and children being killed would be a show of mercy. They would not have to face a life of slavery or starvation, they would not perpetuate the sinful culture (or generational curse) of their fathers, and for those under the age of accountability, they would go to heaven. (I'm speaking from a New Testament point of view, of course).
This point it seems to me is roughly analogous with the Allied destruction of Hitler's reich. It was a righteous cause.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
Edited by - John Earp on 06/05/2003 01:06:55 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/5/2003 4:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW: sounds pretty much like your a "picker and chooser" of the Old Testament. Red lights always go up for me when someone talks about the "inperfect" with regard to the Old Testament. Seems it just dropped a bit on the "infallible" list. Regardless, when scripture says that God commanded a certain country to be destroyed, its hard to imagine how that can be "imperfect." Unless of course you want to rewrite portions of the Old Testament. Then it wouldn't be "infallible," but what the heck.
BTW, I never said I agreed with the article, only that i thought it was good.
DLW, I would add though that what OVers are rejecting is an interpretation of scripture, not scripture itself. There is a great difference.
I would agree with John. Those were extremely corrupt situations where the peoples had so fallen into sin that they couldn't be saved.
How about the word incomplete? Like for example, you would never accept using a verse from the OT to prove that there really isn't a trinity? I had some pentecostal one-ness types do that with me.
So no, I think inevitably in forming the concept of God that we live our lives with, we must use discernment in how we interpret the Bible and that includes interpreting some OT passages as incomplete, or needing interpretation in light of the fuller witness of the NT.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/5/2003 7:49 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW: yes, i would wholeheartedly agree with the word "incomplete." I just get nervous when people use the word "imperfect," because I see it opening all kinds of "holes" in the OT.
BTW, I think the article is good because I think it shows the mindset of Jewish people and may help Christians understand where they are coming from.
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/5/2003 10:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
DLW: yes, i would wholeheartedly agree with the word "incomplete." I just get nervous when people use the word "imperfect," because I see it opening all kinds of "holes" in the OT.
BTW, I think the article is good because I think it shows the mindset of Jewish people and may help Christians understand where they are coming from.
Yeah, I agree it would be helpful to understand the mindset of Jewish people. It also helps to interact with them. I found that I could do that more so by starting off emphasizing that I do not believe that the Jewish people cannot have a relationship with G-d.
I think that with Jews, as well as Muslims, that reconciliation is an important immediate goal and that conversions will happen as the historic barriers are broken down.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/5/2003 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Reconcilation is indeed a great thing, but I would disagree that Jews and Muslims have a relationship with the revealed God of the NT.
I do not believe the exclusivity of any religion should be downplayed.
Edited by - honorman on 06/05/2003 5:14:42 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/6/2003 5:27 AM (GMT -6) | | One can have been brought up on "wrong" theology and still have a relationship with God.
If they do have a relationship with God and go to Heaven, this is possible only because of the death of Jesus on the Cross.
However, we are still called to make disciples of all nations.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/6/2003 6:19 AM (GMT -6) | | We are called to make disciples of Jesus Christ of all nations. Those who reject Jesus Christ do not have a relationship with God. This includes both Jews and Muslims. Having a relationship with Jesus Christ is what Christianity is all about. One cannot have a relationship with God and reject Jesus. It really has nothing to do with "wrong" theology.
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/6/2003 7:02 AM (GMT -6) | | If one was brought up in a culture where the Gospel was not available, couldn't they still form a relationship with Jesus through the name of God that they did know?
I am not espousing universalism here, just the possibility that someone could choose Jesus, even though they were culturally conditioned to not become a Christian.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 6/6/2003 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | I would agree, to an extent, but it would seem to me that religions, once accepted, are, by and large, exclusive. To accept Judaism or Islam is to reject the uniqueness of Jesus.
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 6/6/2003 2:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes but so many of us are in the religion we are in because of birth and how we were reared up. Also, for many Jews, they only provide a very skewed view of the Christian Church and much group pressure against becoming a Christian(You can be an atheist or secular or new-agey, but not Christian and still be a Jew).
Most Jews, while denying the distinctness of Jesus, do believe that Christians have relationships with God. Their viewpoint is what I like to call the laissez-faire approach to comparative spiritual development.
dlw
Prayer from Kenya
From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
Edited by - DLW on 06/06/2003 7:34:48 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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