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Why do I feel like I'm in kindergarden classroom with two little brats who need a time-out?

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Probably has to do with some unmet needs you have.

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LOL

Notice how the rudeness started when Mr. Plagiarist arrived here?
He's reallly peeved at you and me. At least when he was plagiarizing, there was some substance there; on his own, nada.




Edited by - Laika on 07/26/2003 9:30:18 PM

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Starkman: 1Cor. 15:25-28 - The context is the church, not the unsaved.

Doc: It’s not clear how we can limit I Cor 15: 25-28 to THE CHURCH.
Paul says "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death." Its referring to the subjection of God’s enemies, the last one is death which will not only be put under "his feet" but be ‘destroyed." How is this about THE CHURCH? Paul ends by proclaiming that when "all things" are put " in subjection under him" God will "be all in all." Why? Because it seems there’s no more opposition. The question Universalists ask is, How can God be ALL in ALL if a mass of people are existing in eternal conscious suffering, saying "NO" to God’s love and grace.

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[8.]

Now together with these we will state also other reasons why this pericope of Scripture was thus composed. But at present it is necessary to mention this: first, that Paul's discourse was of the resurrection, a thing counted to be impossible and greatly disbelieved: next, he was writing to Corinthians among whom there were many philosophers who mocked at such things always. For although in other things wrangling one with another, in this they all, as with one mouth, conspired, dogmatically declaring that there is no resurrection. Contending therefore for such a subject so disbelieved and ridiculed, both on account of the prejudice which had been formed, and on account of the difficulty of the thing; and wishing to demonstrate its possibility, he first effects this from the resurrection of Christ. And having proved it both from the prophets, and from those who had seen, and from those who believed: when he had obtained an admitted reductio ad absurdum, he proves in what follows the resurrection of mankind also. "For if the dead rise not," saith he, "neither has Christ been raised."

Further; having closely urged these converse arguments in the former verses, he tries it again in another way, calling Him the "first-fruits," and pointing to His "abolishing all rule and authority and power, and death last." "How then should death be put down," saith he, "unless he first loose the bodies which heheld?" Since then he had spoken great things of the Only-Begotten, that He "gives up the kingdom," i.e., that He Himself brings these things to pass, and Himself is victor in the war, and "putteth all things under His feet," he adds, to correct the unbelief of the multitude, "for He must reign till He hath put all His enemies under His feet." Not as putting an end to the kingdom, did he use the expression "until," but to render what was said worthy of credit, and induce them to be confident. For "do not," saith he, "because thou hast heard that He will abolish all rule, and authority and power," to wit, the devil, and the bands of demons, (many as there are,) and the multitudes of unbelievers, and the tyranny of death, and all evils: do not thou fear as though His strength was exhausted. For until He shall have done all these things, "He must reign;" not saying this, that after He hath brought it to pass He doth not reign; but establishing this other, that even if it be not now, undoubtedly it will be. For His kingdom is not cut off: yea, He rules and prevails and abides until He shall have set to right all things.

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[9.]

Since then he referred all to Him, the "abolishing rule and authority," the perfecting of His kingdom, (I mean the salvation of the faithful, the peace of the world, the taking away of evils, for this is to perfect His kingdom,) the putting an end to death; and he said not, "the Father by Him," but, "Himself shall put down, and Himself shall put under His feet," and he no where mentioned Him that begat Him; he was afraid afterward, lest on this account among some of the more irrational persons, either the Son might seem to be greater than the Father, or to be a certain distinct principle, unbegotten. And therefore, gently guarding himself, he qualifies the magnitude of his expressions, saying, "for He put all things in subjection under His feet," again referring to the Father these high achievements; not as though the Son were without power. For how could He be, of whom he testified so great things before, and referred to Him all that was said? But it was for the reason which I mentioned, and that he might show all things to be common to Father and Son which were done in our behalf. For that Himself alone was sufficient to "put all things in subjection under Him," hear again Paul saying, (Philippians chapter 3, verse 21) "Who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of His glory, according to the working whereby He is able even to subject all things unto Himself."

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[11.]

But what is this, "When He shall deliver up the kingdom?" The Scripture acknowledges two kingdoms of God, the one by appropriation, the other by creation. Thus, He is King over all, both Greeks and Jews and devils and His adversaries, in respect of His creation: but He is King of the faithful and willing and subject, in respect of His making them His own. This is the kingdom which is said also to have a beginning. For concerning this He saith also in the second Psalm, "Ask of Me, and I shall give Thee the heathen for Thine inheritance." (Psalms chapter 2, verse 8) Touching this also, He Himself said to His disciples, "All authority hath been given unto Me by My father," (Matthew chapter 28, verse 18) referring all to Him that begat Him, notas though of Himself He were not sufficient, but to signify that He is a Son, and not unbegotten. This kingdom then He doth "deliver up," i.e., "bring to a right end."

"What then," saith one, "can be the reason why He spake nothing of the Spirit?" Because of Him he was not discoursing now, nor doth he confound all things together. Since also where he saith, "There is one God the Father, and one Lord Jesus," undoubtedly not as allowing the Spirit to be inferior, is he therefore silent, but because for the time it was not urgent, he so expressed himself. For he is wont also to make mention of the Father only, yet we must not therefore cast out the Son: he is wont to speak also of the Son and of the Spirit only, yet not for this are we to deny the Father.

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But what is, "that God may be all in all?" That all things may be dependent upon Him, that none may suppose two authorities without a beginning, nor another kingdom separated off; that nothing may exist independent of him. For when the enemies shall be lying under the feet of the Son, and He having them cast under His feet be at no variance with His Father, but at concord with Him in entire perfection, then He shall Himself "be all in all."

But some say that he spake this to declare the removal of wickedness, as though all would yield thenceforth and none would resist nor do iniquity. For when there is no sin, it is evident that "God shall be all in all."

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"Divorcing the text from its apocalyptic background caused it to be broken into parts for use as prooftexts."

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...sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always {being} ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

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Reconcile ALL Things
Col. 1:20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

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Phil 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Rev 5:3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, {be} blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

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fencesitter
Neophyte
10 Posts

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BJS: I'd definitely like to hear a universalist deal with the passages that seem to challenge their position.
Doc: We might get to that. But you might want to check out Talbot’s book (you can get it from his website).

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God All in All
1Cor. 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Cor. 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Cor. 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection," it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him.
1Cor. 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.

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Reconcile ALL Things
Col. 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything.
Col. 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col. 1:20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

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Justification for All
Rom. 5:15 ¶ But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many.
Rom. 5:16 And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
Rom. 5:17 If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Rom. 5:18 ¶ Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.

As in Adam, SO in Christ
1Cor. 15:22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

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Universal Restoration
Acts 3:20 so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah appointed for you, that is, Jesus,
Acts 3:21 who must remain in heaven until the time of universal restoration that God announced long ago through his holy prophets.

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Drawing ALL People
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

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The Savior of ALL People
1 Tim 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

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EVERY Knee Shall Bow
Phil. 2:9 ¶ Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
Phil. 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phil. 2:11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,

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A Ransom for All
1Tim. 2:4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Tim. 2:5 For
there is one God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
1Tim. 2:6 who gave himself a ransom for all
—this was attested at the right time.

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Tasted Death for All
Heb. 2:9 but we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

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Originally posted by GregBoyd

OKAY, NOW WE"RE TALKING! Great comments. I think JE's response to the unversalistic texts is about as good as one can get. I suppose the issue then comes down to weighing the improbability of the counter explanations offer by traditionalistis of universalistic texts against the improbability of the counter explanations offered by universalists of the standard eternal hell texts.

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