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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 7/24/2003 8:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | Just read a great little book by Thomas Talbot called The Inescapable Love of God. One of the best cases for universalism I’ve read (not that I’ve read a lot). Maybe its time we chew on some of the key verses universalists use.
* How do you interpret these verses?
* Are there other passages that could be used in support of universalism?
* Are there other arguments that could be used in support of universalism?
* How might a universalist interpret passages that are typically used to support either the traditional view of hell or annihilationism?
God All in All
1Cor. 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Cor. 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Cor. 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection," it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him.
1Cor. 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.
Reconcile ALL Things
Col. 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything.
Col. 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col. 1:20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
Justification for All
Rom. 5:15 ¶ But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many.
Rom. 5:16 And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
Rom. 5:17 If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Rom. 5:18 ¶ Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
As in Adam, SO in Christ
1Cor. 15:22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
Universal Restoration
Acts 3:20 so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah appointed for you, that is, Jesus,
Acts 3:21 who must remain in heaven until the time of universal restoration that God announced long ago through his holy prophets.
Drawing ALL People
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
The Savior of ALL People
1Tim. 4:10 For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially
EVERY Knee Shall Bow
Phil. 2:9 ¶ Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
Phil. 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phil. 2:11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
A Ransom for All
1Tim. 2:4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Tim. 2:5 For
there is one God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
1Tim. 2:6 who gave himself a ransom for all
—this was attested at the right time.
Tasted Death for All
Heb. 2:9 but we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
As I recall, these are the main passages. Some are obviously more forceful than others. But what do you think?
(If you quote the standard verses about "eternal destruction" "everlasting fire" etc... THINK and comment on how a bible believing Universalist might interprete these passages. It's not like they DON"T KNOW these verses are THERE.)
Lets grow and have fun
Doc
"The responsibility is with the chooser -- God is blameless." Plato, Republic, 10. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/24/2003 8:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Wouldn't one of the key things be what we should consider as heresy? I.e., since having the "right" theology isn't a prerequisite for having a relationship with God, does that mean it doesn't matter whether one affirms EDF or not?
Theology inevitably informs praxis. Islam may contain many truths and experiences us Christians haven't, but that doesn't mean at its beginning it had much value-added.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
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Laplace
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 7/24/2003 9:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Let's think about this for a second. Just about all of those verses cited are taken out of context. For example, saying "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord". I'm sure Satan himself will have to do that one day. Does that imply Salvation?
Secondly, opportunity does not equate to acceptance. All those verses touting gifts, gathering of people, etc. completely ignores any choice on our part (No Matrix-isms please). Again, Free Will vs. Determinism arguments. But as I've said to someone who said that faith required action I responded, "Yes, it does. You may believe a medicine will cure you, but unless you ingest it it isn't going to save you."
But probably the most convincing evidence against traditional Universalism is that it completely ignores God's justification standard and makes it whatever man feels like. If EVERYONE will be saved eventually, it makes no difference to live morally or amorally. Laws and rules would be irrelavent. Evil would have no meaning. The implications are very similar to atheistic annihilation for everyone.
I don't know if your question is asking will EVERYONE be saved or if "All ways to God are valid", but they are essentially the same thing. Because who's standard are we using? The individuals? The majority? God's? Most say God's, but the Universalist view argues, "Since we can't know FOR SURE God's plan(s), He must then accept those who try their best". It's really a cop-out attitude that trivializes truth.
Annihilism is a subset of this argument (rather than eternal punishment). But it's interesting that those who say that everyone will eventually be saved in essence say that Heaven is a one-way door. Once you're in, you're in. You never hear much about the possibility for us to be cast out from a Universalist.
(Bart Simpson): "If there's a doggie Heaven, there has to be a doggie Hell. What dogs are there?"
(Homer Simpson): "Well, you know. There's Hitler's dog. And Nixon's dog. And one of the Lassies is there too."
"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
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Total Posts : 110
| Posted 7/24/2003 10:26 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/24/2003 11:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Greg is an apologist. That requires studying and taking seriously other viewpoints.
please don't start a smear campaign over him being a universalist.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
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ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 7/24/2003 1:05 PM (GMT -6) | | When I reflect on whether or not everyone will be saved, I wonder why God would warn us of the consequences of not accepting his son if we are all going to be saved anyway. Just a little thought...
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/24/2003 1:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Yeah, clearly the Universalists conveniently leave out the passages that imply the urgency of the choices we make and their consequences.
Orthodoxy would interpret the above passages in the light of others. Just as OVTheism interprets passages traditionally used to support Calvinism in the light of the many passages in the Old and New Testament that support a Yeshua/Yahweh who moans over Mary's lack of faith/enraged by the Israelites lack of faith.
But all things considered it still maybe worthwhile to take another look at the above passages. After all, what the hell is hell anyways, but separation from God. So do we humans sever ourselves from God for all eternity by our choices?
dlw
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
Down by Law.
ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/24/2003 4:41 PM (GMT -6) | | 1Cor. 15:25-28 - The context is the church, not the unsaved.
Col. 1:18-20 - ditto the above.
Rom. 5:15-18 Simply isn't the context for universalism.
1Cor. 15:22 Those in Christ are the context.
et. al.
Just on the word "all" ...
If we're to take "all" in these and the following passages to mean EVERY person, then we must take "all" to mean absolutely all people in Daniel 2 where it is said of the Babylonian kingdom, Wherever human beings, wild animals, and birds of the sky live—he has given them into your power. He has given you authority over them all.; the same for the Grecian (third) empire: Then a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule in all the earth. In neither of these instances can it be said that these rulers ruled all the people of the earth.
This is a great post for a compendium of Scripture for "universalism."
But we're going to have to discuss the context for everyone of these verses, and that means we're going to be here a loooooooong time!
For "all" it's worth,
Starkman
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/24/2003 6:03 PM (GMT -6) | | | I'm curious to see Doc do more than just cite these verses - maybe say what is the thesis behind it? Many of the replies here remind me of the older brother of the prodigal son - that parable is a great reminder of God's grace and mercy - not dependent on someone's actions. B/c the older son had always done what was right, and the father acknowledged that. But it didn't negate the fact that the father wanted BOTH his sons, the sinner and the saint. | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/24/2003 6:37 PM (GMT -6) | | I have a book by an Orthodox author. The chapter title about this is "Dare we Hope for the Salvation of All.
Its beyond our knowledge.
But Origin was condemned for preaching the "preexistence of souls." He was NOT condemned for his Universalism. The Church never felt it could close that door. Its an "open" question. (Not the use of "open" as in OV!)
St. Isaac the Syrian (Isaac of Ninevah) is a primary mystic to read on this.
(A TOTAL ASIDE: Ninevah is the Iraqui town of Mossel, where Sadam Husein's two sons were killed yesterday!)
St. Gregory of Nyssa is also big on this. | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/24/2003 6:40 PM (GMT -6) | | | Well, I would think that Open Theists, of all people , could not condemn the theory of universalism- if God changes, it may be that regardless of his teachings and words about hell in the Bible, he may decide later on that he wants to save everyone after all. | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 7/25/2003 1:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Some folks would be quite angry if God did change His mind and let everyone 'in'. They would feel like they wasted their entire life trying to be good.
peace, don
---
"You cannot step twice into the same river; for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you." Heraclitus | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/25/2003 3:22 AM (GMT -6) | | John 8:23-24, 44-45
Jesus replied, "You people are from below; I am from above. You people are from this world; I am not from this world. Thus I told you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am the Christ, you will die in your sins."
And then following closely on the heels of the above ...
"You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I am telling you the truth, you do not believe me."
For the difference between those saved and those not saved,
Starkman
Edited by - Starkman on 07/25/2003 08:22:45 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
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Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 7/25/2003 4:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for initiating this topic, Doc. I've really been grappling with this lately. I suppose the thought behind those who would reconcile these universalism verses with the other verses describing hell and damnation is that any hell or damnation is temporary or probationary, right? But even if one doesn't buy into the "eternal conscious suffering" version of hell, it's hard to argue around verses that describe hell as an eternal consequence of some kind. I would really love for universalism to be true, but Scripture just doesn't seem to support it when taken as a whole. I'd definitely like to hear a universalist deal with the passages that seem to challenge their position.
Miss E?
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 7/25/2003 6:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Another ignornant comment from RD about open theism. How many is that now?
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/25/2003 7:18 AM (GMT -6) | | | Another snide comment from the H-man. How many is that now? | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/25/2003 7:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey, Hey, Hey!!!!!
to your corners you too. Keep it clean!
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
Roberto Bernigni in
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ahehmAmericanzituhsen! This,varrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/25/2003 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | Another snipity and sarcastic remark from Starkman ...
Hey wait, that's me! 
For bloodying up one's self,
Starkman
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 7/25/2003 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | RD: you really MUST get a little more original. Not to mention you might want to TRY and read a book on open theism.
I would suggest, RD, that you learn from how many times John Earp had to continuely correct you as to what open theists believe. Yet you continue to make statements (like the one in this post) that are simply not true of open theists. I truly do not believe you have even read a book on it, but simply take your views from the nearest calvinist website.
A snide comment is only snide when it isn't the truth...
Edited by - honorman on 07/25/2003 1:49:30 PM
Edited by - honorman on 07/25/2003 1:50:37 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/25/2003 8:55 AM (GMT -6) | | | I'm turning the other cheek. Go ahead and deride me all you want. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 7/25/2003 9:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Playing the martyr now, poor little girl.  Look, I have little patience for people who won't deal with a topic honestly.
Open theists believe that God accomomdates humans by changing his mind upon occasion so that his ultimate will, which DOES NOT CHANGE will be accomplished. God does not change his ultimate will. If you had read up on the subject you would have known this.
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/25/2003 9:05 AM (GMT -6) | | You have succeeded in making me about ready to throw in the towel. Congratulations. You are about the worst example of Christianity I can think of. You have hurt my feelings greatly, but i don't expect anything less from you- you aren't concerned about how you treat a fellow Christian. I feel no need to defend what I have or have not read. Suffice to say I have read many books on Open Theism, and for the most part respect Greg Boyd, his intelligence and his loving attitude. BOth of which you are sorely lacking.
"Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow." - C. S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 7/25/2003 9:12 AM (GMT -6) | | If I have succeeded in making someone angry because they are not being truthful, I have no problem with that. Jesus made the Pharisees very angry and it didn't seem to bother him. If you cannot dialogue honestly in the subject, but simply make snide comments than perhaps you should throw in the towel.
Love is not simply about how "nice" we are to others, but about the truth and sometimes the truth is hard. Again, I would suggest you research open theism a little more before discussing it.
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ReasonableDoubt
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Total Posts : 655
| Posted 7/25/2003 9:14 AM (GMT -6) | | I would suggest you quit comparing yourself to Jesus. What utter arrogance.
"Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow." - C. S. Lewis | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 7/25/2003 10:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Um knock it off!
If it ain't civil then it ain't worth saying.
dlw
I-uh-scream-uh,
You-uh-scream-uh,
We-all-uh-sceam-uh for
Ice-uh-cream-uh!!!
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Cuntry! Varrrrrrrybaadfuryur
Cuntry!
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