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Christian
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   Posted 6/5/2003 8:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A poster in another topic said, "Scripture does not give the end-all-be-all answer to how we Christians should relate to homosexuals." The wheels of my mind began to turn. Perhaps Scripture is more of a guide but not the final answer. Is it too outdated and flawed to consider all of it? Persons differ in their interpretations of passages; is there one right interpretation? I notice discrepencies between the Open View view of Scripture vs. traditional view of Scripture. Example: In Proverbs, a man's steps are determined by the Lord. The OV, im my humble opinion, believes contrary,that man plans a man's way. Is that Proverb flawed, is one of the interpretations incorrect, how does a person explain the discrpency? How also does this influence Scripture being God-breathed? Has Scripture suffered at the hands of man as it has been translated through the ages to the point that it is no longer inspired by God? I'd enjoy hearing other's thoughts on the inspiration of Scripture. God bless you.













Edited by - Christian on 06/05/2003 2:03:30 PM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/5/2003 11:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
A poster in another topic said, "Scripture does not give the end-all-be-all answer to how we Christians should relate to homosexuals."


I posted this:

quote:
The "Free-Church" tradition relies on individual, independant interpretation. It does NOT view Scripture is an incarnation of the Word--God speaking to us. (as does: Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Lutheran and Catholic traditions)


and

quote:
...the text itself, the the infallible New Testament, divinely inspired, and which express the word of God in human language and constitute a coherent whole, and to which we are to listen with a spirit of obedience as a a personal dialogue between each one of us and Christ.



I'd also recommend this LINK: www.orthodoxeurope.org/theospirit/000005.php

Don't let DLW sidetrack you by trying to give it an alienating label, as if it were "narrowly" Eastern Orthodox. I think that what is written in that article is both well done, and something that is embraced widely by those who seek God's truth. What IS surprising is how some Evangelical traditions--and certainly not all--are so individualistic. That gives legitimacy to the sometimes voiced criticism of miriad "paper popes."



Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/05/2003 4:37:10 PM
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DLW
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   Posted 6/5/2003 11:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Pow,
I excommunicate you from the Wetzell Free Baptist Church.

Ye shall be denied the sacraments and all hopes of salvation unless you wish to go to Canossa and kneel down in the freezing cold begging my forgiveness.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
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honorman
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   Posted 6/5/2003 12:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Also I would add that don't POW mislead you. The Orthodox church has as many issues of interpretation as any other body of Christ.

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AlyoshaKaramazov
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   Posted 6/5/2003 9:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have a longstanding question that I've brought up before on this board and this seems like a good place to kick that dead horse some more.

The following are Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft's reasons for denying the doctrine of sola scriptura:
quote:
a.) No Christian before Luther ever taught it, for the first sixteen Christian centuries.
b.) The first generation of Christians did not even have the New Testament.
c.) Without the Catholic Church to interpret Scripture authoritatively, Protestantism has divided into more than twenty thousand different churches or denominations.
d.) If Scripture is infallible, the Church must be infallible too, for a fallible cause cannot produce an infallible effect, and the Church produced the Bible. The Church (apostles and saints) wrote the NT, and the Church (subsequent bishops) defined its canon.
e.) Scripture itself calls the Church "the pillar and bulwark of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15)
f.) And Scripture itself never teaches sola scriptura. Thus sola scriptura is self-contradictory. If we are to believe only scripture, we should not believe sola scriptura.

Since this board is very evangelical heavy, could someone please refute Kreeft's reasons and provide some reasons for accepting sola scriptura? I have yet to see anyone provide an INFORMED critique of these reasons, or provide the positive case for SS. Kreeft's points seem entirely valid to me.

Out.

"Take the place of my heart, till I become a stranger to my life."
--Jars of Clay
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2003 3:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
honorman: Also I would add that don't POW mislead you. The Orthodox church has as many issues of interpretation as any other body of Christ.


Honorman may-or-may-not remember my saying that I have seen a broad range of views among the Orthodox too, all the moreso the further removed from its essential core. AND, it must be said that that core is one of worship and NOT of philosophy--which makes it qualitatively different from the west (and has meant that the western influences on it historically have been something that in the last half-century it has had to deal with!!!).

But in its eucharistic, liturgical core it is ONE. Its theology is found in its liturgy and not in theological books. (One of the things it has had to deal with is the "chatachism books" that werre written explicitly to coply the western tradition--keeping up with the Jones'. They are foreign to its spirit.)

So, yes, there are issues of interpretation among Orthodox. (In areas such as what happens after you die, it can't help but be speculative if you venture very far at all. But both Scripture and our Christian life now do teach us something--ans as God doesnot change with our death, and as we learn in our "Christian walk" the differences between what is wheat and chaff in our own life we do have some inkling what the our future-in-Christ holds. And some have a clearer picture of this, and live lives more emblematic--"iconic" even--than others.)

So... Here's the point. The LINK www.orthodoxeurope.org/theospirit/000005.php can be read for itself, by the person reading it, and compared to what that person has learned in their Christian walk! I said above that, "what is written in that article is both well done, and something that is embraced widely by those who seek God's truth (including broad swatches of the Evangelical tradition)."


(Keep keeping after me, honorman!!!!!!)
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2003 4:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
Since this board is very evangelical heavy, could someone please refute Kreeft's reasons and provide some reasons for accepting sola scriptura? I have yet to see anyone provide an INFORMED critique of these reasons, or provide the positive case for SS. Kreeft's points seem entirely valid to me.


I'd like to see this too.


And that makes me want to see what other definitions of Scripture are available for examination. I am particularly atracted to St. Irenaeus, of the very early foundings of the Church. (Born between 115 between 142; had seen and heard the holy Bishop Polycarp--who died in 155)


So, I found an article and clipped the portions that represent well Irenaeus' view of Scripture as "the Word concerning Christ", and I'd like to ask everyone who reads it to repsond to these two questions. OK?

[size=3]
Two questions, please:


    1. How attractive is Irenaeus' definition of Scripture to those PERSONS who are "Evangelical," and who have been weaned within that tradition is the discourse below. (Persons, as opposed to the "dictionary definition of what Captical-E Evangelicals are supposed to think/experience)?

    2. What, if any parts of the main thrust (not little tertiary appendages, please) of Irenaeus' definition of Scripture, and the discourse below, are found by you to be problematic--coming from your having been reared and weaned within certain of the "Evangelical" traditions?



quote:
(from A Talk given at the University of North Carolina / March 23, 1998. By John Behr.)

www.svots.edu/Faculty/John-Behr/Articles/Orthodoxy.html


Nevertheless, the Gospel was delivered. Debates certainly raged about the correct interpretation of this Gospel -- but it was nevertheless delivered once for all. In the debates about what was the orthodox position, the issue of what is authoritative for this position was paramount. And in this question of authority, two particular and inseparable aspects were fundamental: the canon of Scripture and the correct interpretation of that Scripture -- expressed most clearly in the rule [canon] of faith/truth.

The earliest Christians, of course, already possessed a collection of writings which they considered authoritative -- the Scriptures -- the Jewish writings (what became known as the OT); and it was in accordance with these Scriptures, says Paul, that the Christ died and was raised on the third day (1 Cor 15). The Gospel, as it was originally delivered, seems to have been a particular, Christocentric, reading of what was later described as the "Old Testament." As St Irenaeus put it, at the end of the second century:

    If anyone reads the Scriptures [that is, the "Old Testament"] in this way, he will find in them the Word concerning Christ, and a foreshadowing of the new calling. For Christ is the 'treasure which was hidden in the field' (Mt 13:44), that is, in this world -- for 'the field is the world' (Mt 13:38) -- [a treasure] hidden in the Scriptures, for He was indicated by means of types and parables, which could not be understood by men prior to the consummation of those things which had been predicted, that is, the advent of Christ. ... And for this reason, when at the present time the Law is read to the Jews, it is like a fable; for they do not possess the explanation (tên exêgêsin) of all things which pertain to the human advent of the Son of God, but when it is read by Christians, it is a treasure, hid in a field, but brought to light by the Cross of Christ (Against the Heresies, 4.26.1).


The Word concerning Christ, the Gospel, is a treasure hid in Scripture, brought to light by the Cross.

It is the Gospel, Scripture read in a particular fashion, **through the prism of the Cross of Christ**, that is salvific -- if the Law itself were salvific, then Christ would have died in vain, as Paul points out (Gal 2:21).

Yet the Gospel remains intimately linked to the Scriptures -- Christ is the Word of God disseminated in Scripture. It is interesting that those who appealed most to the apostolic writings during the course of the second century -- such as Marcion and Gnostics such as Ptolemy -- failed to appreciate the relationship between these Scriptures and the Gospel -- usually heightening the contrast between the two, claiming that they were about two different Gods. It was only by the end of the second century, with St Irenaeus, that the continued preaching/kerygma of the Gospel came to be crystallized as a rule of truth, and that the writings of the apostles themselves came to be recognized as possessing Scriptural authority. As Irenaeus wrote:

    We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. ...

    These have all declared to us that there is one God, Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the Law and Prophets; and one Christ the Son of God (Against the Heresies, 3.1.1-2).


The reason I am dwelling on this, is because it helps to understand the Orthodox Church's insistence on Scripture and Tradition, and the place of creedal formula within this. The Gospel which is the foundation of the Church, has, according to Irenaeus, been preserved intact within the Church, as the tradition of the apostles. It has been maintained through a succession of bishops teaching and preaching the same Gospel -- he continues a little later:

    It is within the power of all, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted as bishops in the Churches, and to demonstrate the succession of these men to our own times (Against the Heresies, 3.3.1).


It is not that the bishops, instituted by the apostles (who are not thought of as the first bishops, as they would be by Cyprian), automatically preserved the tradition of the apostles -- the Gospel which the apostles delivered -- but that they are bishops of the Church **only** to the extent that they do so, for the Church is founded upon the Gospel.

More important is the fact that the content of tradition is nothing other than that which is also preserved in a written form, as Scripture -- they are not two different sources. Tradition is **not** the accumulation of various customs, **nor** does it provide us with access to knowledge necessary for salvation that is not also contained in Scripture. It is the Gnostics, according to Irenaeus, who appeal to tradition for teachings not contained in Scripture.

The community founded upon the apostolic Gospel, the Church, is also the community which has recognized certain writings as apostolic and as authoritative Scripture (and will eventually speak of a canon of Scripture). As there were many writings laying claim to apostolic status, the claim to apostolicity, however, was not itself enough to justify the recognition of a particular writing as Scripture. What was essential was the conformity of the writing to the apostolic Gospel which founded the Church, which has been preserved intact, and which had since come to be phrased in terms of a rule/canon of truth/faith. This also means that the apostolic writings are accepted as Scripture within a community that lays claim to the correct interpretation of these writings. Tradition is, as Florovsky put it commenting on Irenaeus, Scripture rightly understood. In Irenaeus' vivid image, those who interpret Scripture in a manner which does not conform to the rule of truth are like those who, seeing a beautiful mosaic of a king, dismantle the stones and reassemble them to form the picture of a dog, claiming that this was the original intention of the writer (Against the Heresies, 1.8).

It is not that what is claimed to be the picture of a king can be arbitrarily imposed upon Scripture -- Scripture is fixed -- it is "the ground and pillar of our faith," as Irenaeus puts it, modifying Paul's words, about the Church, to Timothy (1 Tim 3:15); although as Bart Ehrman has noted, parts of the text were modified during the course of the second century to produce a more 'orthodox' text). Scripture is that to which one must continually return, to be sure of the ground on which we stand.

If tradition is essentially the right interpretation of Scripture, then it cannot change -- and this means, it can *neither* grow *nor* develop. A tradition with a potential for growth ultimately *undermines* the Gospel itself -- it leaves open the possibility for further revelation, and therefore the Gospel would *no longer* be sure and certain. If our faith is one and the same as that of the apostles, then, as Irenaeus claimed, it is equally immune from improvement by articulate or speculative thinkers as well as from diminution by inarticulate believers (Against the Heresies, 1.10.2). We must take seriously the famous saying of St. Vincent of Lérins: "We must hold what has been believed everywhere, always and by all" (Commonitorium, 2).

From an Orthodox perspective, there simply is, therefore, no such thing as dogmatic development. What there is, of course, is ever new, more detailed and comprehensive explanations elaborated in defense of one and the same faith -- responding, each time, to a particular context, a particular controversy etc. But it is one and the same faith that has been believed from the beginning -- the continuity of the correct interpretation of Scripture.





I believe the same as my brother-in-law (who got his M.Div. from a Protestant Seminary, and who later became an Orthodox priest), that the Orthodox and the Evangelicals are those MOST similar to each other--more that RCC (who have "dogmatic development"), or liberal Protestants, in this respect: BOTH EVANGELICALS AND ORTHODOXY HOLD TO A HIGH VIEW OF SCRIPTURE!!!


I hope that this was enjoyable reading; and informative. And I hope that you felt that Irenaeus was soeaking on behalf or your own heart too!




Edited by - PotOnWheel on 06/06/2003 10:26:42 AM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2003 4:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My initial CONCERN with Kreft's words is that it appears to folow the heavy "Christological/histrorical" drift of the RCC in its conceptualization of the "Ecclesia" of the Church. (A diminished place of the Holy Spirit, as "proceeding from...and the Son in their changed version of the Nicene Creed leads to--if it what not motivated by with Emperor Charlamaigne--the idea and practice of having a "Pope.")

Notice the emphasis this Antiochian article places on BOTH the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church AND the unchanging truth that is the Gospel.


    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    And in the eyes of Irenaeus, the Tradition was associated
    with that "genuine anointing of truth" (Against Heresies, Book 4,
    Chapter XXVI, paragraph 2), passed on from the Apostles, through
    the succession, to the bishops of the Church and through them to
    the presbyters. He did not see the teaching of the Apostles as
    unchanging examples, to be repeated over and over again word for
    word or even paraphrased, but as a living source of both life and
    inspiration. Tradition is to be found in the ongoing presence of
    the Holy Spirit in the Church
    , not just in the repeating and
    remembering of words. Thus, we see that the Tradition and its
    use in the Church is a charismatic, not an historical, matter.

    http://www.antiochian.org/theology/what_is_the_basis_for_certainty_.htm

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


That is an area of concern Krefts list raises for me.

PoW

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honorman
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   Posted 6/6/2003 8:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry, POW, I do remember...I thought I put a behind my words. It was just a little joke...

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honorman
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   Posted 6/6/2003 8:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BTW, as I have pointed out CAtholics and Orthodox are just as divided in many of their interpretations, so if Catholicism is represented of a "united" theology, I'll stick with the Protestant side. Plus, Protestants are actually very united on the essentials, Krefft wants to check it out.

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 6/6/2003 1:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
honorman

so if Catholicism is represented of a "united" theology, I'll stick with the Protestant side. Plus, Protestants are actually very united on the essentials, Krefft wants to check it out.


I'm with you there, honorman.

(Maybe you'd like this self-critical article by a Lebanese Christian: "The Antiochian School of Biblical Exegesis," The Word 30 (1986) 7-9 www.svots.edu/Faculty/Paul-Nadim-Tarazi/Articles/Antiochian-School-of-Biblical-Exegesis.html
It might be down. I don't know why.)
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Starkman
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   Posted 6/6/2003 4:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let's consider these defenses:

a.) No Christian before Luther ever taught it, for the first sixteen Christian centuries.

The emergence of truth is not nullified by any amount of time first having passed. (Incidentally, for so long, Christians weren't even allowed to think for themselves under the control of the Catholic church much less lead a reformation.)

b.) The first generation of Christians did not even have the New Testament.

That doesn't make Christ's or Paul's or Luke's or Matthew's teachings (the oral word) any less authoritative. It's not the printed page that's the issue, it's the authority behind it that was active quite authoritatively before it was in print.

c.) Without the Catholic Church to interpret Scripture authoritatively, Protestantism has divided into more than twenty thousand different churches or denominations.

Anyone can say these "authoritative" statements. Joseph Smith of the Mormons, Charles Taze Russell of the Jehova's Witnesses. Rev ... ahem! Mr. Moon. The Catholic church may say what it wishes about being the "interpreters," but that doesn't make it so.

One denomination, two denominations, ten denominations ... the administering (as best as we are able) the word of God and worship in a manner fitting for the variegated personalities and spiritual compositions of human beings. The results of diversity present difficulty for everyone, but that lessons neither the need nor the beauty of diversity. Difficulty is simply the nature and result of living in a world full of diviserty. (But it's MOST difficult when others negatively criticise diversity (read: denominations) in trying to destroy it.)

The issue isn't diversity at all, it's the Catholic church's loss of control and attempt to turn diversity--something very healthy in many areas of our daily lives--into something evil for it's own power purposes.

d.) If Scripture is infallible, the Church must be infallible too, for a fallible cause cannot produce an infallible effect, and the Church produced the Bible. The Church (apostles and saints) wrote the NT, and the Church (subsequent bishops) defined its canon.

Jesus said, "Thy Word is Truth; sanctify THEM (the Church) through thy Word." It is a logical fallacy to equate God's Word and the church, which we know darned well is only clean (not infallible) because of the shedded blood of Christ? God speaks His Word, which is infallible truth; because I believe it, I'm, therefore, supposed to be ... infallible? Gads!

The printed word of God--in its originals, if we're going to use this defense--was only infallible because of WHO spoke it. It isn't some magical ontology in and of itself. Believing that it is brings one much too close to Bibliolatry: worshiping the Bible. So, for me to believe its message is only to ... believe its message. It is HE, the Giver of it, who makes me perfect (complete) but not infallible in His sight (almost wrote "site." Way too much computer lingo in my life!)

e.) Scripture itself calls the Church "the pillar and bulwark of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15)

Yes, "... OF truth. Not THEE Truth or THEE Infallible. Forever it will stand that THY Word is Truth. The Catholic church is not the truth. It may convey the truth, as may anyone, but it itself is not the truth. And neither is the universal church of God. She only carries the truth.

f.) And Scripture itself never teaches sola scriptura. Thus sola scriptura is self-contradictory. If we are to believe only scripture, we should not believe sola scriptura.

Luther's teaching on Sola Scriptura was not that ONLY Scripture was to be heard or was authoritative, but that when all is said and done, only Scripture can be looked at as the FINAL authority by which the Christian can discern (spiritual) truth from falsity. "Thy Word is Truth; sanctify them by Thy Word." That's about as authoritative as it gets. Jesus claimed He was this very truth. Therefore, what He said should be taken as ... gospel! Statements, too, by John in the Book of Revelation that its prophecy given to him was to be neither added to nor subtracted from contributes to the concept of Sola Scriptura. (The statement was in regard to just the book of Revelation, but the point is well made.)

But let's entertain the idea for a moment that the New Testament is only the testimony and passing forth of both Christ's words and the writers thereof. Even if we diminish the concept of Sola Scriptura, there is still no way to reconcile many of the Catholic church's teachings so contrary to Bibilical theology; which, despite the many demoninations, at least in years past, the far majority of Christians held the major tenants in agreement: the Deity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; salvation by faith (ALONE) in the completed work of Christ's life, death on the cross, and resurrection (bodily) from the dead; the baptism (spiritually) of every believer into the body of Christ making that believer part of the catholic church. These basic Biblical tenants remove, once and for all, the necessity of the Catholic church's non-Biblical teachings and it's power over the layman.

For the Truth,

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?

Charlie Brown


Edited by - Starkman on 06/06/2003 11:15:47 PM
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Iconoclast
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   Posted 6/6/2003 8:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well said Starkman. I'm sold.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Iconoclast
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   Posted 6/6/2003 9:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christian

Persons differ in their interpretations of passages; is there one right interpretation? I notice discrepencies between the Open View view of Scripture vs. traditional view of Scripture.

Iconoclast

The bible is the inspired word of God. As such it is exceeding deep and mysterious and yet simple and direct. It is multi-layered in its meanings. It is 'fractal'. When a child asks 'what must I do to be saved?' the answer is simple and direct. As we grow and mature in Christ we begin to see layers of meaning unfolding in the text. Every time I read the bible I find new meanings layered on top of what I have learned before. This is no different than God's creation itself. As science continues to explore what God has created layers upon layers of subtlety are revealed. At first we thought there were four elements, earth, wind, fire and water. Then we learned about atoms. Then we learned about neutrons, protons and electrons. Now we are exploring the structure of quarks, leptons, muons, bosons and the like. Each layer is true in its way and yet the discovery of the next layer adds refinement and subtlety. Is Newtonian physics false now that we know that space-time is curved? No. It is just a simplification. It is true as long as we ask it the right questions.

Determinism is like Newtonian physics. It is a useful model up to a point. Beyond that point might-counterfactuals must be dealt with which opens up a whole new world of understanding how incredibly powerful, amazing and totally loving God really is.

If we did not always go back to what Jesus said and did, if we did not always go back to the source, we would get stuck in man's traditions rather than be able to explore the deep and rich meanings that God put there for us to discover.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Edited by - Iconoclast on 06/07/2003 02:37:48 AM
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DLW
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   Posted 6/7/2003 9:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think historically within Christianity, it had been pretty much accepted that the ecclesiastical problem of order was answered through scripture and tradition and that the latter was more subject to change. In Christian history, there tended to be a cyclic pattern of the decline and renewal of Christianity. The schism between Protestants and Catholics coincided with a large economic shift whereby northern states outpaced southern states in their economic development. Since the states ruled in conjunction with the support of the church and paid tribute to Rome, this imposed a hefty flow of wealth from the north to the south. So the theological critique of Luther, whose "sola scriptura" should be interpreted as only scripture is the true source of ecclesiastical authority became conflated with a political and economic tax-rebellion. In Sweden, they became protestant for the sole reason that the king wanted to confiscate the church lands to pay his debts(Theology had nothing to do with it!). However, in the aftermath of this with the thirty-year war, among RCCs tradition got raised to the same level as scripture(Thus, making the church a reactionary body against change, since if they permitted change within themselves then they would have to recognize that Protestantism was in fact Christianity.). And, among Protestants new, divergent traditions were started and, generally, conflated with scripture. This then led to the numerous divisions among Protestants, which sowed the seeds of nationalism that would lead to so much war and devastation.

So my point of view is to advocate a return to the view prevalent prior to the Protestant-Catholic schism, accepting the need for both scripture and tradition in how we govern ourselves as Christians and do Theology, but maintaining that inexorably tradition is fallible (and should not be shielded from critique by appeal to apostolic succession or notions like "the Center"), but that much of what we hold to has passed the test of time, such as scripture and essential tenets of theology as set out in the Vincentian Canon from the 5th Century.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
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Starkman
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   Posted 6/7/2003 10:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think you're right, DWL. The ecomonics of the times were tremendously ripe to foment and carry the opposition of Rome's demand for submission. Made the difference, from what little I know of it.

Starkman

Am I right? I say, am I right?

Charlie Brown
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DLW
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   Posted 6/7/2003 10:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

I think you're right, DWL. The ecomonics of the times were tremendously ripe to foment and carry the opposition of Rome's demand for submission. Made the difference, from what little I know of it.



I would also argue that the centrality of Rome within Christianity would never have loomed so large if the rise of Islam had not cut down the number of centers of Christianity from four to one. And, the rise of Islam would not have happened the way it did, if antisemitism had not become engrained in the Byzantine Church(Got to love those Eastern Orthodox Types!). Which would not have happened so much if Church leaders hadn't gone of and become White Martyrs in the wake of Christianity becoming the official religion of the Roman Empire. Apparently, they didn't care for the ambiguity of having to deal with power, as opposed to the good old days where good and evil was clear-cut and one could have stable expectations of martyrdom.

Hence, a focus on the problem of order focuses on the mundane issues over what fallible procedures we use to decide things.
dlw

ps, the schism between Protestants and Catholics also led to a severe reduction in the autonomy between Church and State that not only led to the growth of nationalism, but, in my view, is very likely responsible for the malaise of Christianity in Europe, as opposed to the US. GBritain has always maintained more autonomy than the rest of Europe between Church and State, thanks to the willingness to accept martyrdom of several Church leaders. So it has always been in-between.

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.

Edited by - DLW on 06/07/2003 3:49:37 PM
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Laplace
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
 
   Posted 6/9/2003 10:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Christian,

I believe you are bringing up a reasonable question. As I understand, a number of ways to phrase the question is:

- "How did people receive revalation before the Bible?"
- "What do we mean when we say the Bible is 'God's Word'?"
- "Is there any more revalations that occured other than what's recorded in the Bible either before, during, or after (lost Scriptures)?"
- "How does the Bible apply to us today?"

Well, let's tackle the first question. First thing to note is that as pointed out, many people did NOT have a nice neat packaged Bible in the first place. In fact, since many were illiterate it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Understand that many years of humanity existed and God's intervention into it before Moses wrote the Torah (First 5 books of the Old Testament). And likewise, the New Testament wasn't formalized immediately either. So how did people know about God? Romans says that although many do not receive "special revalation" (that "voice from God", and the records of the Bible) that everyone receives "general revalation" about God through His creation, our conscience, etc. If you believe the Bible, this light is sufficient to know enough about the one true God (but not everything or even a whole lot).

When we say the Bible is God's Word, the general consensus is that the Bible is "inspired". Meaning as 2 Peter 1:20-21 says, the Holy Spirit was actively involved and "carrying" them along speaking from God. What this means exactly is certainly debateable. I won't get into the debates about infallibility vs. inerrancy vs. inspired, but you can be assured it was God's will that what was written was written.

Of course this now opens up a big topic of making sure we have "everything" that God intended for us to have and to make sure it's accurate. What is the "complete package"? Is there more for us to find? Do we have too much already? How do we determine which books get the stamp of approval and which do not?

BRIEFLY, I will say that our canon 66 books as we know them now were formalized roughly in the 3rd council of Carthage in 397 AD (correct me if I'm wrong) with other canons before that (Muratorian in 170 AD). And basically the guideliness for entry was that they had to be of course historically accurate, had widespread approval by Christians, and either be written by or approved by the apostles. This is the main argument that other texts like the Book of Mormon, Koran, etc. are not included as "God's Word".

One way to test a writing is to first see if it's unity with the rest of the writing. If it isn't then somewhere you've got problems. Of course, there has always been attacks of the unity of Scripture (again, infallible vs. inerrent vs inspired) but for the most part, the 66 books agree with each other. Considering the span of time periods, cultures, authors, locations, and styles, this is what makes the Bible unique from other more "secret" writings like the Book of Mormon and the Koran. One should rightfully be suspicious about "revalations" made to a select few. And that's what made the New Testament (esp the Gospels) so unique. The actions were all out in the open with scores of witnesses. If the biographies were grossly inaccurate (including the reserrection), it is HIGHLY improbable if not impossible that the stories would not only be circulated as much, but also believed as fact. Finally, the Bible states that once the final prophesies are fulfilled in its text, that will signal the end of humanity as we know it. This is why we generally accept the fact that Scripture is "complete".

However, as a caveat, I think you may be wondering if God "speaks" to people in other ways and it could be what you are getting at in terms of "end all answers". I will say that given what the Bible says, God did have prophets who spoke for God whose words were not recorded in Scripture. The question now is does God do that today or at any time in post-Bible times? Does God speak directly to/through the Pope, the Latter-day-saint prophet, or through you and me? Well, maybe. The Bible gives guidelines for these so-called prophets:

Deuteronomy 8:15-22
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die." The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

But of course, even if what he/she says STILL may come true, doesn't necessarily mean it comes from God either. It just is saying something from God is ALWAYS true. And if we accept the Bible as TRUE, then by logic, whatever someone says has to be in tune with the Bible.

Now, there are certainly objections to what claims are actually true and not. In addition, an objection brought up is, "But you are assuming the Bible is true simply because it says so. In other words, begging the question (circular reasoning)." Agreed, a possiblity. But once again, since the Bible was not written by just one person in one time period, etc. and given archeological evidence backing up both the historical accuracy of Scripture, its preservation through the ages (Dead Sea Scrolls), and prohphesy come true, simply dismissing the Bible simply as historical fiction requires A LOT of "what if's". So do I believe God still "talks" to us today. Yes, but not nearly as much as we'd like to believe (We too often say the words "God told me to..." when in fact much more accurately might be, "God allowed me to...") and it's more "inspired" from the Holy Spirit within us. But this is often impossible to measure or verify because if we are relying mainly upon feelings, feelings can be quite contrary to truth. That is why I like to say that feelings can be a great confirmer of decisions, very bad to go on alone.

So what does this old book mean for us today? How literally should we take it? When we say, "The Bible says..." does it mean we do EXACTLY what it says. Well, there are no easy answers, but I think a couple of things can help us out. One is context. If God was talking to the nation of Israel at the time, it doesn't automatically mean it applies to the USA (2 Chronicles 7:14).

The other which gets to the core of the matter is, "What is the will of God?" I personally don't believe that God's will is a big dartboard with concentric circles of "Perfect will" followed by "Good", by "OK", with missing the board completely as sin and if we "miss the mark" we'll be forever stuck with mediocrity.

There are SOME things, specific things that we know are God's will which we should/should not do (pray without ceasing [argue 'why' all you want, but still do it], abstaining from sexual immorality, etc). But 99.9% of the time we don't have these explicits. Again, this could turn into an entire thread in and of itself: Knowing God's will. But I will just conclude that we need to obey the 2 greatest commandments ("Loving God and loving people" -abridged), and to use the Bible as a "guide". We all get different interpretations from the guide at times, but God also says in the Bible it's the heart He looks at, and that's something we can all control.


"Balance in all things" - Dak'kon, Planescape Torment
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DLW
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Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
 
   Posted 6/11/2003 7:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My apology, I did not mean to imply that EO is inherently Anti-semitic, just that they like many other western traditions of Christianity have struggled with this problem in the past and it likely did damage their collective witness...

dlw

Prayer from Kenya

From the Cowardice that dare not face new truth,
From the Laziness that is contented with half-truth,
From the Arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Lord Deliver Me.
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